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Is she in-scope? A philosopher at who does a podcast with Robin Hanson, so I would guess so.

Anyway the New Yorker just published a profile of her which is causing near-universal horror: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/03/13/agnes-callard-profile-marriage-philosophy

The tl;dr is she shacked up with a grad student and divorced her husband, which is tawdry and not very interesting, but she dresses it up in fancy philosophizing about aspiration, which elevates it into the sneer realm.

She has a podcast with Robin Hanson, and has been on many podcasts with many other rats, so she’s relevant here.

But more relevant is the deeply sad and rat-typical way she intellectualises basic human activities, and then assumes she’s seen something nobody else has seen, even while falling into the most typical of human patterns. You aren’t a special genius for thinking “what if happier life with young hot guy”, you’re just in need of arrest by the horny police.

She also said she felt like Socrates for dispensing knowledge: my dude, that is the literal opposite of Socrates. I mean I know she’s probably referencing the Diotima speech in the symposium, but that’s an exact case of Socrates rejecting a claim to have knowledge about love and instead invoking another.

Oh, and she also previously crossed a picket line so she deserves a sneer or two regardless.

Held a special *late night emergency philosophical dialogue* to fully interrogate why crossing picket lines is cool and ethical, even!

She’s always been sneerable; I’ve watched her career with great nausea. Appalling in every way. Belongs on the same list as Emily Oster and Amy Chua.

one of the reasons she is very much in-scope is the same reason the New Yorker writes a piece about her and does not describe her primarily as part of the rationalist movement (broadly construed). she is a “respectable” philosopher at one of the top universities in the US. She writes for The Point, associated with that same university, which tries to position itself as having “no specific political or social agenda; instead, we ask our readers to participate in a dialogue between diverse intellectual traditions, personalities and points of view.”

This is a deliberate facade. Even though The Point sometimes publishes thoughtful pieces, its main point is to be a kind of Quillette-light. Callard for quite a while made it seem as if she might be reasonable and not allied with the far right. Then came the Hanson stuff. Hanson is at GMU Economics, which is broadly understood as a joke in most US academia. Chicago has a much different and in some ways scarier (because much more serious and definitely not-a-joke) profile, going all the way back to the Chicago School in Economics and Leo Strauss and farther.

My view is that Callard is only famous because she waters down the same drugs that all our pals are high on, and dangerous because it gets presented as something else–as this profile does.

I was her student. I have mixed to negative feelings. She and her ex-husband seem to be on good terms; they famously had a (famously boring) debate about the philosophy of divorce. (Actually I haven’t seen it, so I can’t say for sure that it’s boring, but I heard it’s not juicy at all.) Arnold was a fellow student* in one of the classes I took from her. They were already together at that point. It wasn’t weird or uncomfortable to be around them.

  • In hindsight it seems unlikely that he was actually taking the class as a student, as it’s a pretty serious ethics breach, maybe he was just sitting in. He would have been an extremely active auditor though!

This article avoids places where she can be most criticized. Her love for Robin Hanson, as OP mentioned. Also, Callard (maybe no longer, I haven’t kept up) tweets way too much, and deliberately misrepresents her views to make them maximally inflammatory. Clickbait philosophy. And she wrote a really shit article “Why Philosophers Shouldn’t Sign Petitions” where she argues against deplatforming TERFS. Her article isn’t just wrong, it’s quite poorly written. Here’s a good response.

Though I did well in her classes, I did not care for her much as a teacher, but she keeps winning awards for her teaching, so she must appeal very greatly to some students.

So you are saying the article is misleading about the timeline of them getting together?
No, and I'd better edit it if it comes off that way. I just mean that in 2018 and 2019 I took classes from her and Arnold was there too. Maybe he wasn't a student; he could have just been sitting in. I didn't think to ask.

The fuck kind of American Beauty bullshit did i just read.

Look lady, you had a midlife crisis and wanted to bone someone younger. This happens to millions of people every day. Youre not special.

She is often baffled by the human conventions that the rest of us have accepted. It seems to her that we are all intuitively copying one another, adopting the same set of arbitrary behaviors and values, as if by osmosis.

Congratulations, you have discovered that we do in fact live in a society.

Sometimes it seemed to Agnes that the universe had been prearranged for her benefit. If she and Arnold were taking a walk together and she craved a croissant, a bakery would suddenly appear. If she needed a book, she would realize that she was passing a bookstore, and the text she wanted was displayed in the window. She thought that this was now her permanent reality.

Or, idk, you walked past a bakery and realised you were hungry. Or you noticed a bookstore and thought about books. Cart, horse, which comes first?

Philosophers often describe love from the outside, but she could provide an inside account.

Oh my GOD you’re telling me you’re the first philosopher to ever fall in love?

>sometimes it seemed to Agnes that the universe had been prearranged to her benefit Fuck this “sometimes a croissant just appears” bullshit, tell me how to manifest a tenure track job at the University of Chicago without having a book published, and then manifest a SECOND tenure track job in the same department for my hot young lover.

Not to go all beep-boopism here, but between the rationalists and people like Callard I think it’s probably best if people didn’t treat autistic traits as the fast lane to philosophical truth.

why do you hate the internet

Wow that office https://news.uchicago.edu/videos/night-owls-late-night-philosophers-pondering-big-questions-agnes-callard

Apparently her aspiration is to teach adults in a kindergarten art classroom. Somehow not surprised she's at UChicago.
I unironically love that office and dress a little like that, RIP
I hate it when terrible people steal my aesthetic. First PUA's started wearing fedoras a few months after I did, then video game execs started pairing T shirts and blazers after I'd been sporting that look for a year. TL:DR I apparently have terrible taste in clothes.
Honestly, yeah, no problem with the look-at-me-I’m-just-so-*quirky* aesthetic. But she uses that manic pixie dream professor schtick toward a message that philosophers should be strike breakers.

Hoo boy. I don’t go to U of C but some people there are in my social circle and they’ve been talking about this for years. The U of C subreddit has also had a few threads where freshmen or those out of the loop ask what the fuck is going on with Callard. I feel a little weird knowing there’s now a newyorker.com link that unspools much of (though not all) of the story.

I can’t really claim any knowledge of how it is in the rest of the country/world but there really seems to be a high frequency of faculty at University of Chicago whose weirdness has broken through into pop culture. Rachel Fulton Brown is the U of C medieval history professor who is utterly infatuated with Milo Yiannopolis, even now apparently. It’s just such a random thing, especially when a nerdy white-haired professor started adopting the speech patterns of a catty gay Republican troll.

> Rachel Fulton Brown yeah, she's the reason why non-nazi medieval scholars have to call in the antifa

My main takeaway from the New Yorker piece is that philosophers are insufferable.

They all live in the same house. That’s what piqued my interest

the same glass house? :)

The only article I could find even offering an opinion of the situation was this one:

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-marriage-monster/

Some choice excerpts include: >I believe that under ordinary circumstances – meaning, unless there is infidelity, substance abuse, physical abuse, or serious mental abuse – husbands and wives should live sacrificially through unhappy marriage, for the sake of giving their kids stability.

Ben comes across not as a heroic self-sacrificer, but as a beta male who endures humiliation at the hands of his wife because he doesn’t know what else to do.

The fact that she has autism explains a lot. A fundamental characteristic of autism is the inability to empathize, or at least empathize easily

Not the kind of person I would like to find myself standing shoulder to shoulder with, personally. [edit] the writer of the article I have posted, that is

I’ll pass.

Dreher is literally the worst.
Oh man, a new Rod joint? Poster above me is right, he is the absolute worst
Man, I'm famished. Who's up for bouillabaisse?
The guy who converted from Catholicism to Eastern Orthodoxy because he thought the Catholic Church went too far in trying to remove pedophiles from their ranks?
He converted because he was scandalized and couldn't trust the hierarchy anymore, it's only lately that he curved back around and thought they were being unfair to people he liked (like Pell). In conclusion, DreRod is a land of contrasts.
Kind of seems like the author thinks just wives should have to sacrificially endure unhappy marriages then?
Helpful context is that the author of that piece just got divorced after his wife spent over a decade of sacrificially enduring and he thought she should have kept it up forever.
Husbands too, maybe. I am on team 'Dreher is a closet case.'
Lol we found his ex-boyfriend. Read the brokehugs sneer threads.
Holy shit.
Also his dad was a Klan grand cyclops. Ruthie hated him for being queer and probably outed him to his ex-wife. Its the most amazing southern gothic shit I swear.
I remember the Klan part.
Dreher is for sure a hyper-ventilating panic machine and nutter. Nonetheless, I think the details about Agnes-Arnold-Ben included in this piece don't make any of the threesome look particularly good. If his take can be summarized as "there's something screwy about this" I don't disagree.
Rod Dreher sneering at anybody else as a "beta male", lawl. There's an even niche-ier subreddit that does a lot of clowning on him, but I forget what it's called.
Brokehugs. I helped get the threads started.

Oh her. I knew of the story.
Of course she podcasted with Robin Hanson. Of course.

I mean this is weird to go public with but honestly I don’t think this qualifies.

I want to sneer, it feels like I should be sneering, but the article doesn’t give me much reason to.

Her family seems happy, her ex-husband and her current husband seem to be on good terms. Unless there is more to the story I can’t resent her, and without that the sneering is kind of empty to me.

Am I missing something?

Imagine if the genders were reversed. I'd say the most sneerable thing about it is the way she uses philosophical bloviating to justify base selfishness. So you're a professor who wants to end your marriage so you can sleep with your student? Then you're a cliche, don't pretend you're doing something profound. edit: That she would air her dirty laundry in public by talking about this in the fucking New Yorker adds a whole other layer too. Why would *anyone* want to bring that kind of attention to themselves and their family? edit#2: My god does [this thing have layers to it](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqpMeoyWIAAr-W_?format=jpg&name=medium)
This kind of critique doesn't always work in these situations but I will say that in this one I think it is particularly salient. If this were a male professor people would be absolutely dying. Doesn't necessarily make it ethically suspicious although I do think it is but it is a glaring example of unabashed narcissism.
"Imagine if the genders were reversed" (and its close cousin, "imagine if the races were reversed") is almost always a terrible critique. *Oh yeah? When's International Men's Day, then? When do I get my White History Month?*
Why should a person care if the genders are reversed if they didn't disagree with the underlying principle? That would be hypocritical by very definition.
Madwoman of the Sacred Heart at least used the cliché in an interesting way.
this is literally that "lovers" sketch from SNL
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Lol the deleted profile
This was me on a different profile that I deleted for reasons unrelated to this thread. Why this comment in particular was removed from the thread when all the rest of them have been preserved, I don't know. Perhaps because I suggested that some of the critiques leveled at Callard seemed to eschew sneering at her ideas over critiquing her love life in a way that I suggested contained hints of misogyny? I did use the word 'tradcon' in reference to the, what seemed to me, prurient nature of some of the comments here. Comments that I found rather distasteful and wholly irrelevant to the theme of the sub. Perhaps the use of the label convinced one of the mods that I was some kind of rationalist, or rationalist adjacent sympathizer. I had deleted my account by that point and I can only assume a look at my comment history would have been sufficient to convince them otherwise, as I have been an active sneerer for a number of months now. I felt the need to post here to defend myself because I fear that the removal of my comment would suggest that it contained something other than a mild refutation of other users in this sub taking shots at what, for all intents and purposes, seemed like an irrelevant aspect of this woman's life. Rather than some weird racist diatribe or outright defense of the rationalist movement, which I have nothing but ill feeling towards.
I think ending up in a relationship with your student is skeevy. It's not really the sort of thing this sub does or should focus on, but I think it is bad to do and that you should think less of people who do it.
Somehow everyone understands this when middle age men are students in freshman classes.
I don't disagree, but unless there is evidence of some kind of power dynamic at play in which she coerced him into a relationship, and given that they have now been married for years and have a family, this seems to me like one of those rare cases in which my own personal feelings on the matter are tempered by the evident love between two human beings who had every right to be together by law. It even says in the article that she recused herself as his professor and they stated their intentions to the university board prior to engaging on a romantic relationship. If these things can be proper, this sounds about as proper as it can be. Other do seem to have actual reasons why she is sneerworthy, beyond her personal life, so I will have to defer to them because this is the first I've heard of her.
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Lack of curiosity is a mortal sin in a philosopher
I think it's the contrast between the very ordinary and sordid facts (she broke up her family to screw a student) and the ridiculously lofty self-justification. >Agnes was extremely upset that the divorce would harm their children, but she felt that the alternative was that she would become a bad person. “I thought that I would become sort of corrupted by staying in a marriage where I no longer felt like I was aspirational about it,” she said. Her friends and relatives suggested that she just have an affair, but that felt impossible. “It’s like you have this vision of this wonderful, grand possibility, and then you decide to just play at it, treating it like a vacation or something. It seemed like a desecration of that vision.” The rat quality manifests in this idea that if you think and act from some abstract first principle, you don't have to worry about ordinary human decency.
> Her friends and relatives suggested that she just have an affair (peers over glasses) With friends like those....
I don't think this paragraph is objectionable. It's worth asking if it's bad for you to stay in a marriage just for the sake of your children, and it's worth asking if affairs trivialize love by making relationships into vacations.
You'll have to forgive me if I'm being dense, but which part was indecent?
Honestly sounds like she hasn't done anything that would indicate she's dangerous to thre public or such, but she's just kind of a pretentious and unlikeable jerk in the public eye. There's no scandal, just some interpersonal drama and a bunch of people gawking. It's fine to look at a situation like this and go "geez what an ass" but it's not really our business to dig any further or try to paint Callard's behavior as some kind of moral offense, let alone get involved.

Agnes Callard is a weird human being but is a platonist/aristotelian who seems dubious of rationality, economics, and AI really the kind of person who should be featured here?

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i think the hate she gets is way overblown and that she is ten times more interesting than any of the dumb rationalists or EA people. Plus she's a defender of the humanities, the classics, etc.; she resists the mathematization and quantification of life. In many ways she's the exact opposite of the rationalists. Edit: I think Callard fits closes into what Liam Bright calls analytic humanism whereas the rationalists primarily fit into neoliberal. http://sootyempiric.blogspot.com/2021/11/the-anglo-american-analytic-philosophy.html
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sorry to provide "multiple irritating arguments" lol
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