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An inquiry concerning the wisdom of building cathedrals (substack.com)

We could be like Star Trek today, if only in the Middle Ages we had not wasted funds on those expensive status-signalling buildings!

(but does it apply also to Wytham Abbey?)

Don’t think this is what Nick Land meant by attacking The Cathedral.

Reminds me of [this graph] (https://i.stack.imgur.com/XE9el.jpg)

Ah yes, an axis labeled Scientific Advance, I'm sure there are consistent units that apply equally to ancient Egypt and modern day.
You haven't played civilization? It's based on the number of Erlenmeyer flasks you have
Don't forget that they also have to be filled with undefined blue goop! Just the flasks alone won't cut it!
Don't you know, the blue goop is obviously made out of [circuits, engines, and sulfur](https://wiki.factorio.com/Science_pack).
Funny how I already knew what graph it was going to be before I even clicked it.
Ah yes, the medieval age, famous for being a period during which absolutely nothing was ever invented at all.
This is historical revisionism, it leaves put the Finno-Korean Hyper War
To be fair, that war did revise history first.

the right cathedral… in the wrong place… at the right time can make… all the difference… in… the world!

We could be like FarmVille if only we had not wasted all that money on urban infrastructure

I think Pol Pot said something similar.

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Eh I think that is a separate point. The lives of the people of Ile de France would have been better if the economic surplus that went into Chartres, Bourges (personal favorite), Rheims, Amiens, Laon and Notre Dame de Paris were somehow kept with the community and reinvested into like, roads or just used to buy more farm animals or nicer clothes. But I don't think that necessarily amounts to more 'advancement'. History isn't a game of civ where someone blew all their resources in Wonders instead of scientific advances. Moreover a world that allowed the people to keep their own wealth would have been fundamentally different in ways far more radical than spending less money on monumental architecture.
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Yeah I mean agreed that 18 year olds are by definition not sneerworthy.
I like this back and forth
The question isn't 'what if science instead of Cathedrals' so much as 'what if Wat Tyler had won?'
It gets complicated because having richly decorated churches was often something that people were genuinely willing to dedicate a lot of resources to. While elites were obviously most keen on it, and there is often resistance and such, a lot of people *thought this was important*. And you can even see communities often pulling together even fairly humble folks to help make their village church something that pleases God. Obviously sometimes people complained about wasting money and such, but as a general rule "Having the house of God be good-looking" was something most medieval people, rich or poor, *would agree with*.
Yeah indeed. There were also tithes but people wanted their church to look cool. Better than those wankers in the next town.
"benefit of the elite on the broken backs of the downtrodden" It wasn't the elite who got a lifetime's paid work in the building of a cathedral. Think of a cathedral as a centuries-long jobs program.

They should have picked Meeting House instead as the Production bonus is more broadly useful than an extra Religious Work of Art.

I am very intelligent.

Previously I said people got their mind broken by reading [Peter Watts blindsight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight_(Watts_novel)), but this proto-vampire certainly should have read it.

Watts is another guy that gets read by a lot of Rats but really only rarely *understood*, if you follow me. I just started a reread of Blindsight and Echopraxia and it is insane to me that any reader could think Watts is sympathetic to EA or corporate interests. Those books are largely tragedies about the human condition informed by evolutionary biology, not "lets build this society." tl;dr "We're proud to bring the Torment Nexus from *Don't Build the Torment Nexus* into reality"
>We're proud to bring the Torment Nexus from > >Don't Build the Torment Nexus > > into reality Excuse me, I'll have you know the Torment Nexus is an exceedingly cost-effective way to meet the power demands of our glorious Job Creators without worsening climate change.
> without worsening climate change. in the next version, anyway
Read the Rifters trilogy lmao.
Is the torment nexus in one of these books?
I mean, basically all of his books have something that would count as a Torment Nexus, now that I think about it.
I would say that pretty much all of his books are exclusively Torment Nexus, tbh.
There's...huh..no even the humor is torment adjacent

we could be like star trek if only we didnt waste all those funds on starships

we could be like mad max if only we didn't waste all those funds on civilization

Mainstream academia strongly rejects the concept of the Dark Ages these days, instead viewing the post-Roman world as chaotic but very much a place of continued social and technological innovation.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with side-eyeing ornate religious construction to some extent, but at the same time it’s clearly something that people in general often want, and I certainly don’t support the state commanding religious institutions on what or how to build new centers of worship.

Plus it's somewhat hard to view Rome as a place of significant technological advancements- they were largely adopters and improvers of technology over inventors and innovators. Compared to medieval people, who absolutely were inventors.
Wasn't there still at least a century or two of Western Europeans getting absolutely fucked six ways from Sunday?

Couple things:

  1. What else did these guys think would have been built at that point in history? Particle accelerators?
  2. Where do these people think reading and writing was taught during the Dark Ages?
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This is fair actually, that essay is not as bad as i thought at first blush. It's dumb, of course, but not dumber than many things I wrote or thought when younger. I do think that simplistic notion of the dark ages is something that is much more widespread than just this author, though. Especially among Rats, who tend not to be great at historical context and assume no one did anything until the Enlightenment
> Where do these people think reading and writing was taught during the Dark Ages? It wasn't. That's why it's called DARK AGES, no one could read or write. Haven't you seen The Graph?
Also, many of the castles and cathedrals of the era required architectural and engineering techniques and technologies well beyond what the Romans were capable of. Yes, the aesthetic and the sense of decline is what stuck in the collective imagination but pretending that scientific and technological progress (even just in Europe) just stopped for a thousand years is absolutely bonkers.
Progress is not a numberline.