Scott totally gets where the Neo-Nazis are coming from: "Evil scheming Jews" freed "all those overeducated, cosmopolitan single women" to "chase alphas and Chads" instead of nice guys like him. Comment 96 in this thread

u/philosopheratwork 71 points at 1684401448.000000

Hoo boy.

“There’s never been a campaign of extermination against nerds qua nerds.” That’s just false. According to the standard international classification of such things, a genocide can include sterilization or even preventing a demographic group from having children, as well as explicit murder. What society is doing to nerdy incels like me is, in that sense, literal genocide. They are denying me the opportunity to have children and denying me sex, which is a basic human need. It’s no different from an authoritarian government denying food or shelter to certain people (e.g. the Holodomor). As an incel I suffer more than my ancestors who were in the Holocaust. I’d much rather be in Auschwitz for a couple months than cope with a lifetime of loneliness and sexual frustration. I am a victim of the modern incel holocaust. Sex is a basic human need and a human right and deprivation of sex is morally tantamount to murder.

This is a comment on a post about AI. Such a clear example of the Nazi bar principle.

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u/DELETED 47 points at 1684424928.000000

[deleted]

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u/Many-Parsley-5244 18 points at 1684442013.000000

There exists in these guys minds a horribly poisonous idea of the right to someone else's body person for procreation and sex. It's so selfish and all about preservation of these guys' feelings against competing AT ALL

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u/Arilou_skiff 26 points at 1684466950.000000

i don't think it's really sex is what they want. As said they could get it (illegally, but still fairly trivially) pretty easily, and in some places even legally. Sex is just a token for the thing they really want, a toxic mix of the need to dominate others and the need to be loved. It's not the thing, but the thing they chose to represent the thing they want.

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u/dizekat 7 points at 1684550695.000000

I think there's also a lot of rather purposeless lashing out at the world, externalization of failure, cognitive dissonance that gets resolved in the most egoistic way possible, etc. Not even a coherent set of desires, beyond really nonsensical fantasies.

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u/DELETED 3 points at 1684796964.000000

It’s uncanny how well they resemble vulnerable narcissists

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u/dizekat 12 points at 1684461692.000000

Yeah. I think it's basically like it is with people who are complaining that slavery went away. It isn't about tending to the cotton field or whatever with these folks. Pointing out that you can just hire agricultural laborers (plenty of which you can even mistreat pretty badly on the account of theirs being in the country illegally) isn't likely to placate a klansman.

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u/yawaster 1 points at 1685818419.000000

I saw an old anti-abortion comment recently complaining that if women can get abortions then they can deny the right of a man to fatherhood. So it's the right of a man to force someone else to be pregnant and give birth is it?

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u/jakeallstar1 6 points at 1684442382.000000

In America I don't think I'd call buying a prostitute "trivial." I've never done it, but it's illegal, and I've been told it's not particularly easy unless you're in very specific parts of major cities. I don't know that I've seen 10 on duty prostitutes in my life.

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u/dizekat 10 points at 1684452391.000000

Aren't there legal brothels in Nevada? Not to mention the 1st amendment over the entire US makes for a very obvious loophole that any wanker ought to know about (i.e. porn is protected under the first amendment). What they [edit: i.e. incels] want is acceptance from the society, in the form of coercion of women; what they want is the society to put their wants above women's autonomy. UBI + fully legalized prostitution wouldn't suffice.

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u/jakeallstar1 4 points at 1684452993.000000

Yeah but those are far from most of the country and very expensive. Just for me personally I think Vegas would be a 2-3 day drive. And I've heard youtube lawyers say the porn thing isn't the easy loophole you think it is. You need a company and documents signed. Sometimes permits and doctor paperwork. I suppose all of that is doable, but I don't think it would be particularly easy or fast. >What they want is acceptance from the society, in the form of coercion of women to their benefit. Nothing less would suffice. I don't understand this sentence. Is this anti sex work? Or are you insulting people who pay for sex? Or something totally different?

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u/dizekat 7 points at 1684456953.000000

> I suppose all of that is doable, but I don't think it would be particularly easy or fast. There's so many far harder to obtain things. If he spent a day figuring out the steps to do for getting laid instead of fantasizing about shtetl, and then spent the week doing those steps, he would have gotten laid within the week. Of course, his charge is now that feminists had bullied him into not doing any of that; the very same feminists that he has zero concerns about when he blogs the most fucked up shit while being some variety of a professor. > Or something totally different? I'm saying that incels want the "handmaid's tale" scenario done to women, as a punishment for, I guess, existing and making incels horny. Sex itself, they could hardly care less about, as a matter of revealed preference.

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u/jakeallstar1 2 points at 1684457312.000000

Ok... All I'm saying is that's not trivial. Incels bad I agree.

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u/dizekat 2 points at 1684458271.000000

I'd say it's trivial but could (and should) be done with better worker protections in place. Trivial in the sense that a very dull person figuring it out for a day would figure it out. The relevance to incel ideology is that it puts lie to the way incels present their case. If you look at what incels actually say - Scott A for example, comparing rape to starving man stealing bread - and if you combine it with what they don't do, an even more unflattering picture emerges.

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u/jakeallstar1 2 points at 1684458997.000000

Ok anything that requires days of driving each way, and thousands of dollars is kind of prohibitive. That's all I'm saying. I feel like I'm getting sucked in to trying to defend incels. I'm not a fan of them. I'm just saying buying sex in America is possibly a lot more difficult than you think.

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u/dizekat 5 points at 1684460926.000000

The original argument is that incels could just fucking pay for it. And it is absolutely true. Vast majority of them absolutely could. An argument could be made that it could even help some of them get over what ever dumb ass issues they have. edit: although another argument could be made that it wouldn't help them any. Someone like Scott who is in the upper rarefied strata of the society and lacks any practical skills, can fly to Vegas, all above board and 100% legal. A less big-brained incel can just find a local provider. Thing is, it is not the sex that incels like Scott want. It is revenge for theirs being horny and not having it. Hence the comparisons of rape to stealing bread, hence the shtetl fantasies, hence all the crap, hence all this nazi shit in his comments.

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u/jakeallstar1 1 points at 1684461728.000000

>A less big-brained incel can just find a local provider. I don't want a prostitute, but I imagine if I did it would look something like this. Drive an hour into my next biggest city, roll around slow on the streets of the worst neighborhood, where robberies and shootings are normal, pay hundreds of dollars in cash to a stranger I met on the street 3 minutes ago, and hope that I don't get robbed, drugged, attacked or caught by the police. I'm not saying Scott's points are valid. I didn't even read the article. Every time you start talking about incels I just get confused. All I'm saying is that buying a prostitute for a normal guy who isn't part of that culture is not as easy as you seem to think.

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u/rskurat 28 points at 1684424848.000000

nice how Social Darwinism only applies to other people, like non-nerds, the poors & blacks. Nerds, other other hand, are denied opportunities that they're entitled to. Very entitled to. Very.

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u/Studstill 32 points at 1684405422.000000

Poe's Law in full effect, y i k e s. Winner is going to have to be: "The Holocaust was just a couple of relatively bad months, guys"

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u/philosopheratwork 39 points at 1684411580.000000

Regrettably I don't think this was sarcasm. The guy spends a couple of comments going back-and-forth with SA culminating in this doozy. The whole thread is littered with Nazis, "I used to be a Nazi", "I'm a Nazi but not like Hitler, who wasn't a real Nazi" (I swear this is real). All with the characteristic rationalist poe face.

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u/Soyweiser 17 points at 1684412645.000000

Insert quote form Jean-Paul Sartre about anti-semites here. E: [For the new people here](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7870768-never-believe-that-anti-semites-are-completely-unaware-of-the-absurdity) (This is just a small quote, the actual essay is longer).

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u/WorldlinessAwkward69 8 points at 1684536385.000000

Then it brings out the 'former' Nazi incel: >"Out of curiosity I checked out some of the online Nazi forums. They said some pretty foul and contemptible stuff about Jews/other races/etc., but they also said a lot of stuff I empathized with. I chatted with some of them, and unlike the assholes on reddit and twitter, they were really nice and sympathetic about my girl problems. They explained how it wasn’t my fault and that I was the victim of a Jewish conspiracy that sought to breed white women with other races and used feminism to attack white men. This was the first time anybody tried to explain incelism to me in a sympathetic way, and honestly I was hooked. I ended up channeling a lot of that rage inside at Jews and these other enemies who deprived me of a wife and a loving family and a community. I thought, if I lived in traditional times before the Jews ruined everything with sex revolution, feminism, internet blah blah blah, I’d have a loving wife and a close religious community of friends etc. It took a lot of time and finding a girlfriend to deprogram myself from that mindset."

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u/Courier_ttf -17 points at 1684413141.000000

Okay, but where is the lie? Incels are to Chads what the Proletariat is to the Oligarchs. Hoard all the women and don't even give a crumb to the poor starving sexless incel. Even the same gaslighting language is used: "nobody owes you sex" - "nobody owes you money", "if you can't get laid it's because you're lazy and need to work harder (on self improvement)" - "if you're poor it's because you're lazy and need to work harder", "you should be thankful because rich people create jobs" - "you should be thankful because Chads create kids (more opportunities for you to get laid or groom, take your pick)", "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism" - "there is no ethical sex having under inceldom (you either rape directly, or rape indirectly by exploiting sex workers)" "if you're poor it's over for you, you're never gonna be rich" - "if you're ugly it's over for you, you're never gonna get laid" "stealing from the rich is wrong, they earned what they have" - "kidnapping one of Chad's girls is wrong he earned those girls" "there is no class war" - "there is no incel/normie social struggle" And of course: Jews in holocaust extermination camps had more sex than incels, this is factually known because pregnancies still happened in the death camps, the Nazies used Jewish babies for their experiments. So even Holocaust victims got more poon than the average incel. And you think they're going to be fine with that?

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u/papercuts4 27 points at 1684414043.000000

eww

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u/Courier_ttf 24 points at 1684414156.000000

Damn, I was thinking about including a /s but I guess it was not clear this is supposed to be a mockery.

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u/Elegant_Positive8190 24 points at 1684421636.000000

You have to consider that the comment you wrote wouldn't even be the most insane bullshit some of these folks have come out with. It's too believable

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u/grotundeek_apocolyps 24 points at 1684431579.000000

And modernity, they think, was engineered by evil scheming Jews, rubbing their hands with glee as they did so. For my part, I have no problem acknowledging the tiny nuggets of truth in their theory. Yes, the male incel phenomenon is largely a product of modernity. And yes, individuals of Jewish descent were, if not the only or even main players, then disproportionately involved in creating modernity

I will never understand how someone who identifies with their Judaism as much as Scott Aarson does can repeat and then rationalize Nazi propaganda.

If the fascists ever drag Aarson off to a labor camp he’ll probably say to his fellow prisoners, “sure this is inhumane, but I have no problem giving credit where it’s due: if nothing else, we’re certainly getting a lot of work done”.

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u/Many-Parsley-5244 21 points at 1684442194.000000

Male inceldom is *not* a product of modernity idk why he grants that as a given at all. History is full of dudes who don't fit in who can't get laid trying to make subcultures.

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u/grotundeek_apocolyps 16 points at 1684448226.000000

He copes with his poor mental health by choosing to believe that his suffering is caused by external factors related to his time and his place in the world. This coping mechanism is so central to his understanding of himself that he named his blog after it. I think it feels intolerable to him to believe that he would *always* feel exactly the way that he currently does irrespective of the circumstances of his birth.

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u/grotundeek_apocolyps 17 points at 1684433531.000000

Also, lol, he's truly an enlightened centrist to his very core: >Oay, so where do I fit into this, I suppose, charred battle zone or whatever? While there’s an “orthodox” AI alignment movement that I’ve never entirely subscribed to, I suppose I do now subscribe to a “reform” version of AI alignment and he then shows a chart putting himself halfway between "AI ethics" and "AI safety". Sure Scott, obviously the correct place to be on the science-pseudoscience spectrum is right in the middle. Scientific truth is famously decided by forming political coalitions and then finding the middle ground between them.

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u/clueless1245 38 points at 1684399705.000000

Despite its name, OpenAI is famously not 100% open … so there are certain topics that I’m not allowed to talk […]. By contrast, OpenAI is very happy for me to talk about AI safety: what it is and and what if anything can we do about it.

Very curiously, this man’s employer is happy for him to talk about ideas they are actively using to try regulatorily kneecapping the competition, but not anything of technical substance or anything which helps with open problems in the field. Meanwhile the company and its product only exists because of all the previous publicly available research and open-source software, including publicly-funded work.

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u/giziti 7 points at 1684426716.000000

When he describes the work he did, it sounds like some really interesting stuff.

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u/clueless1245 12 points at 1684432377.000000

I have no doubt there's interesting work going on at OpenAI. The unethical part of the business model is that they don't put it out.

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u/giziti 7 points at 1684432724.000000

Yep. And frankly whenever Aaronson talks about his actual work, I'm like, wow, this is some interesting cool stuff, at least the academic work is open, but it's kind of a shame he's such an open weirdo whose posts somehow encourage all this other open weirdness in a bad way. Like, please, just be normal...

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u/grotundeek_apocolyps 6 points at 1684434375.000000

The work he did is pretty cool, but I think it's notable that it's a very small part of the overall post. I think he's still trying to obfuscate the fact that he doesn't actually understand LLM's (or machine learning generally) in a meaningful way. This is why his only contribution to OpenAI's work is a watermarking scheme that is totally independent of anything having to do with how their models actually work. Most of this post is apologetics for pseudoscience. He even created a figure in which he places himself half way between science and pseudoscience! People malign him for his interpersonal deficits, but I think it's important to note his sneerable scientific deficits too. He's a smart guy with notable academic accomplishments, but the range of his competencies appears to be *very* narrow.

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u/giziti 11 points at 1684435536.000000

> the range of his competencies appears to be very narrow I mean, that's academia for you.

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u/clueless1245 1 points at 1684436205.000000

Idk about this, I would have a hard time pointing out someone more suited to do fundamental research than a physicist with a physicist's mathematical training. Probably the number one issue I personally have trying to read papers on learning dynamics or whatever is that I don't have that kind of mathematical maturity. (And on the applied side of things, you regularly have biologists, ecologists, physicians, chemists, so on picking up models other people developed and applying them to their problems -- it's not hard to know "enough ML" for this, what they're bringing to the table is the knowledge of the other field. But I doubt that's what he works on.)

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u/grotundeek_apocolyps 15 points at 1684447395.000000

I'm not saying that he *can't* understand it, I'm saying that he *currently doesn't* understand it. Grab any random math-ish professor and ask them why an autoregressive transformer language model works; they almost certainly won't be able to tell you, because they haven't learned that yet. Prior experience with math does not grant instantaneous insight into all quantifiable subjects. In Aaronson's case, he has a lot of experience in doing proofs about algorithmic complexity (he's a CS prof, not physics). It turns out that that skill set basically isn't transferable to machine learning, though. He'd probably be a lot better off if he actually were a physicist, because ML stuff has a lot more in common with applied math things than it does with traditional complexity proofs. And really it's not a criticism to say that he doesn't know these things (yet). He has good company in that with many smart people. It is, however, a criticism to suggest that he's insecure about this fact and is trying to hide it, and that he's being duped by pseudoscience because he's wandering too far from the domain of his real expertise without having done his homework first. Which is what I'm saying.

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u/clueless1245 1 points at 1684452564.000000

Ah ok yeah, you have a point.

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u/grotundeek_apocolyps 6 points at 1684434542.000000

I think we also need to consider the possibility that there are plenty of things he's allowed to talk about, but which he doesn't understand well enough to be able to say anything interesting about. Saying "it's classified" or "I signed an NDA" is a classic way of avoiding having to talk about the fact that you're ignorant or that your work is unimpressive.

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u/Underzenith17 11 points at 1684415634.000000

Isn’t he married? Surely it’s time to let the bitter incel mentality go.

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u/RedditorsRSoyboys 29 points at 1684401182.000000

There’s a difference between understanding a viewpoint and endorsing it and he goes out of his way to immediately push back against this viewpoint right after your quote.

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u/philosopheratwork 10 points at 1684477934.000000

SA actively moderates his comments. He says in that thread that for every Nazi he lets through, he’s rejecting three. The charge isn’t that he’s a Nazi. It’s that he likes hanging out with Nazis as long as they are polite and complain (as much as he does) about being unfuckable.

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u/Soyweiser 22 points at 1684410140.000000

You have got to admit that, going 'there is no secret council of Jews controlling the world, but I wish there were and they would invite me' to an anti-semite is a pretty bad idea. Esp if you earlier (on the blog) talked about the kolmogorov option. You cannot talk them out of tgeir conspiracy theory, but you can accidentally fuel their theories by being a fool. So yeah he pushed back but very badly. And he doesnt even generalize away from the 'poor sexless incel nerd' to general people unsuccessful in romance. He is only empowering the fascist crab bucket. As somebody else said, the nazi bar principle at work.

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u/RedditorsRSoyboys 25 points at 1684413261.000000

Sure? I mean you can disagree with how exactly Scott Alexander pushed back against those viewpoints but that's kind of besides the point. OP is heavily implying Scott agrees with neo-nazis and incels in this comment and that's just straight up false if you actually read the comment being linked. That's all I'm trying to point out.

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u/Soyweiser 11 points at 1684415644.000000

Ow yes, I agree with your post here, op is gaslighting ( ;) ) about what is going on. im just adding a 'Scott still fucked up here'.

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u/philosopheratwork 1 points at 1684478125.000000

SA actively moderates his comments. He says in that thread that for every Nazi he lets through, he rejects three. The charge isn’t that he’s a Nazi. It’s that he likes hanging out with Nazis as long as they are polite and complain as much as he does about being unfuckable.

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u/goyafrau 1 points at 1684738522.000000

FYI this subreddit is for mentally ill tech workers to intentionally misread other slightly less mentally ill tech workers and then get mad about what they (mis)read.

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u/DELETED 5 points at 1684518432.000000

As an incel I suffer more than my ancestors who were in the Holocaust. I’d much rather be in Auschwitz for a couple months than cope with a lifetime of loneliness and sexual frustration

I can’t imagine why no woman would find this dude in the least bit human enough to even talk to. The level of self-imposed victimhood is breathtaking. Holy shit.

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u/pm_me_fake_months 4 points at 1684524986.000000

Weird how the more educated women get the less interested they are in him, maybe he can use his genius brain to do some statistical analysis on that correlation

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u/WorldlinessAwkward69 3 points at 1684533013.000000

And they wonder why there aren’t as many women in the rationalist spaces. Any rational woman would nope the hell out of there, after listening to their incel fan fic persecution complex drivel.

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u/UndeadYoshi420 2 points at 1684458097.000000

I’m lost and confused and I don’t think I should be here?

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u/TheAncientGeek 1 points at 1684698983.000000

“Tiny nuggets of truth”.

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