r/SneerClub archives
newest
bestest
longest
LessWronger asks why preventing the robot apocalypse with violence is taboo, provoking a struggle session (https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/13upkya/lesswronger_asks_why_preventing_the_robot/)
62

The extremist rhetoric regarding the robot apocalypse seems to point in one very sordid direction, so what is it that’s preventing rationalist AI doomers from arriving at the obvious implications of their beliefs? One LessWronger demands answers, and the commenters respond with a flurry of downvotes, dissembling, and obfuscation.

Many responses follow a predictable line of reasoning: AI doomers shouldn’t do violence because it will make their cause look bad

Others follow a related line of reasoning: AI doomers shouldn’t do violence because it probably wouldn’t work anyway

Some responses obtusely avoid the substance of the issue altogether

At least one response attempts to inject something resembling sanity into the situation

Note that these are the responses that were left up. Four have been deleted.

Um, Yud literally said we should nuke AI data centres. I think he’s pretty on board the violence train.

Yeah that LW comment got an important detail wrong; [the tweet it links to](https://twitter.com/ESYudkowsky/status/1624092352360124417) says > They're not going to be persuaded by a tiny group of lunatics using violence either Yud isn't saying that he doesn't think violence will work, he's saying that he thinks only *organized and large-scale* violence will work.
Is it also protofascism if you call yourself both strong enough to call in nukes, but weak enough to not be organized an large scale? ;)
I propose the term "betafascism": the (even more) cucked version of fascism in which the fascists lack sufficient self confidence to seriously contemplate overthrowing the existing social order.
He didn't call himself strong enough to call in nukes. That's why he doesn't call for violence. His position is violence is acceptable if you and your allies are capable of exerting enough to shut down AI, but they are not, so it's not acceptable.
"I only get into fights when I'm sure that I'm going to win" is not a rejection of violence, it's an admission of low risk tolerance.
A handful of loons shooting up one server farm won't do anything. In fact, it could backfire, like the abortion clinic bombings did, by making the other side look sympathetic. It's not about risk tolerance, or violence aversion. It's about strategy. Go off too early and sabotage one server farm, and all you've done is make your AI skeptic allies look like psychos. If you can't sabotage them all, sabotaging any is counter-productive. I'm not saying I agree with Yud that AI will destroy all life, I just don't like when anyone's positions are misconstrued.
I agree. I was just joking here. I dont think he is a fascist.l (even if some of his community is fascist (crypto)), I was shitposting which is why I added the smiley.
[deleted]
> He almost had Voldemort make Harry king in hpmor. I only read like two chapters of that almost a decade ago. What the *fuck*?
Come on dont base your opinions on the fiction he wrote (and make up things about half of that fiction to get mad at 'almost') and talk about the real world. This is taking science fiction as real type stuff. Tolkien was a monarchist hbd reactionary using this logic. A quakka if you will. He is much more an idiot who doesnt constantly talk or seriously think about changing the government because politics is the mind killer. A usefull fool for the crypto fascists than one himself. (Note I have note read his Dath Ilan fiction, I have a long lust of better stuff to read first. I did get the impression that stuff was more rapey than fascy however). Basing your opinion on someone by just reading their fiction leads you to call yourself a socialist because you want to live in the world Banks Culture, a bit like the worlds most divorced man, so this is why I eyeroll at your comment.
[deleted]
Even if he takes hpmor seriously, he didn't make Harry king. And I want to mock him for the right reasons, not the wrong reasons we are not the same ;). (Ending on a joke here as I don't really care tha tmuch to argue about this).
[deleted]
lol ok

Funny thing I figure is that they actually prefer being right so much, they worry organizing and stopping the apocalypse would result in their predictions being wrong. A date worse than existential annihilation.

It's basically a win-win situation. Every day a superintelligence doesn't end humanity means that they can push back the day further. And if it *does* then they don't have to live with the consequences of it happening.

I think I’m just going to go ahead and start a fucking Wintermute cult.

[deleted]

Do these guys all literally believe in parallel universes, like in Sliders? I hear this appeal to other worlds often from some of them. It's weird when you hear someone always phrasing hypotheticals this way.
I think they subscribe to a weird unscientific interpretation of the many-worlds hypothesis in quantum mechanics. And they have some theories of why this would matter, something to do with 'acausal trade' where you decide that the rational thing is to give X to someone in one world in order to get Y from them in another, and somehow expect that to actually happen in both worlds. Or something along those lines.
they literally do. this was Roko's original solution to the Basilisk: buy a lottery ticket to get money to donate to MIRI, you'll win in *some* quantum branch.

Holy shit we’re reaching SRD levels of effort on these posts, good stuff.

While the idea of getting some neo-Luddism out of all this stupidity is kind of appealing, has anyone called them Luddites over these views?

The insinuations of the label would drive them nuts and result in at least a few essays/blog posts about it, so it probably already happened and the blog posts exist.

What is really scary is the idea that they absolutely know what is going to happen and only they can stop it. The comparisons to Nazi were completely wrong–it isn’t about stopping the Nazis but killing a young art student who you think could be a future dictator.

Also with long-termism they can morally justify nuking Vienna to kill that young art student.

You seem to be saying that if I’m extremely confident that continued AI development would be the end of the world, then the only logically consistent thing for me to do is to endorse even extreme violence to combat it. In other words, moral arguments against using terrorism to save the world are silly; all that matters are the positive (as opposed to normative) facts about the actual risk of apocalypse. If they really believe this stuff about AI doom, then they should be supporting violent solutions, so their reluctance to openly support them shows that either they don’t really believe it or they’re too afraid to admit that they support them. Right?

But that sounds like a utilitarian argument. And this sub doesn’t strike me as utilitarian (though rationalists often do; is that the idea?). Most non-utilitarians would say that even if various actual extremist groups were right about their violence helping to save the world, the violence still wouldn’t be justified, because terrorism is wrong even if done for a good cause. If everything Nazis believed about secret Jewish financial and military control were true, most would agree that this wouldn’t have justified any of what they did to random other Jews, because they still would have been wrong on the moral question of whether genocide and instructional racism are acceptable tactics! But it seems like your sneer could apply equally to 1930s German antisemites who claimed to support the conspiracy theories but oppose violence and oppression of Jews. If not, why?

> so their reluctance to openly support them shows that either they don’t really believe it or they’re too afraid to admit that they support them. Right? > > But that sounds like a utilitarian argument. There's a third option: that they're emotionally dysfunctional and kind of dumb, so they are unable to form a coherent understanding of reality and their place in it. Rationalists are famously, pathologically utilitarian. Whether or not I'm utilitarian is besides the point; *they* are utilitarian, and thus are failing by their own standards.
That makes sense, then! Rationalists claim to support utilitarianism but conveniently never find that violating traditional deontological rules is positive utility. They’ll bite the bullet of the repugnant conclusion in theory but always have an excuse for why it is never applicable in any specific real situation.
except when it's for the ingroup
Well, at least in the present case they won’t support violating deontological rules to further the ingroup cause of delaying AI.