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Interesting review of a new book, White Fragility: Why it’s so hard for white people to talk about racism, in The New Yorker. It reminded me of something.

In 2011, DiAngelo coined the term “white fragility” to describe the disbelieving defensiveness that white people exhibit when their ideas about race and racism are challenged—and particularly when they feel implicated in white supremacy. Why, she wondered, did her feedback prompt such resistance, as if the mention of racism were more offensive than the fact or practice of it?

In DiAngelo’s almost epidemiological vision of white racism, our minds and bodies play host to a pathogen that seeks to replicate itself, sickening us in the process. Like a mutating virus, racism shape-shifts in order to stay alive; when its explicit expression becomes taboo, it hides in coded language. Nor does prejudice disappear when people decide that they will no longer tolerate it. It just looks for ways to avoid detection. “The most effective adaptation of racism over time,” DiAngelo claims, “is the idea that racism is conscious bias held by mean people.” This “good/bad binary,” positing a world of evil racists and compassionate non-racists, is itself a racist construct, eliding systemic injustice and imbuing racism with such shattering moral meaning that white people, especially progressives, cannot bear to face their collusion in it.

This seems like a perfect description of how Rationalists talk about race. As pith-helmeted explorers they’ll delve deeply, with unshakable disinterested calm, into the mysteries of why some groups’ lot in life might be an inevitable consequence of their genetic inferiority, but at the first mention that racism might also exist, you can expect an inbox full of emotional rebukes. Say something racist and you might get a light tut-tut, boys will be boys; call someone a racist and get a blogorrheic whitesplanation. (Unless that racism was directed against white people, even ironically, in which case they’ll gleefully call someone a racist over and over like they just learned the word.)

In the white Manichean view of racism that DiAngelo apparently describes, people are either full-blown racists or they’re not, thus all you have to do to prove you’re not a racist is be consistently unprejudiced in your explicit, non-coded statements (you’re No True Klansman). This is in contrast to perhaps a view in which group prejudice is a natural human tendency that all people must constantly work to overcome. The kind of thing rationality is for. Imagine if we took the same attitude toward some other human vice, like laziness, and divided the world into a tiny mythical group of lazies and a large group of normals, and then a bunch of corpulent slobs spent all their time sitting at their computers Just Asking Questions about the scientific data on exercise and mercilessly attacking the latest Effort Warrior who had the temerity to call a prominent fitness skeptic a lazy even though he professed a terse disclaimer at the beginning of every YouTube video that he does believe in the value of hard work and he even has several diligent friends. Turning behaviors into group identities is stupid and destructive, but on the question of race it’s not unique to Rationalists.

Previously I’ve wondered whether Rationalists end up with weird beliefs like white nationalism because of their demographics or something about the philosophy. It seems like DiAngelo’s theory suggests that any group made up of almost entirely white people (SSC 2018 survey) is going to lose. its. shit. when anyone brings up the existence of racism. Cross that with a belief that all the real truths can be worked out by a group of specially enlightened amateurs slinging unnecessary jargon at each other in their free time, rather than experts who spend their whole lives studying a thing (including people who have no choice but to spend their whole lives experiencing the thing, like people of color - why ask them?), and you have a group of people who don’t just tend toward exactly the point of view you’d expect them to have, but also convince themselves that they’ve arrived at that point through logic and evidence, and therefore all those people telling them they’re laughably/dangerously wrong must be part of some Marxist-feminist conspiracy that’s compromised academia and the mainstream media.

There’s a third suspect, though: the place. Katy Waldman observes the unusual patience and empathy DiAngelo needs in order to discuss this topic with her white audience:

DiAngelo sometimes adopts a soothing, conciliatory tone toward white readers, as if she were appeasing a child on the verge of a tantrum. … One has the grim hunch that such an approach has been honed over years of placating red-faced white people, workshop participants leaping at any excuse to discount their instructor. DiAngelo, for all the outrageousness she documents, never comes across as anything other than preternaturally calm, patient, and lucid, issuing prescriptions for a better world as if from beneath a blanket of Ativan.

So, exactly the kind of grown-up conversation that never happens on the internet, where patience and empathy go to die and have their graves pissed on for the lulz. That also happens to be the natural habitat of Rationalism. And as other people gradually get fed up and leave, internet communities tend toward homogeneity of the least-offendable common denominator; when it’s a bunch of white people, the last worldview standing will be white supremacism.

I know some people who visit this subreddit are still active participants in Rationalist forums, including the toxic miasma of prejudice-rationalization that is the SSC “culture war” threads, and just come here to replenish your strength before returning to the front line. Even if you think you’re doing something noble or heroic by making a desperate last stand against the armies of hate, do you think you’re actually changing any minds when they’re culturally wired to short-circuit as soon as the topic comes up? Or are you just the punching bags they use to practice their arguments (which are only for convincing themselves that they’re being reasonable, not for changing the minds of any neutral observers anyway), the token dissenters whose presence lets them believe they’re consuming a balanced diet of worldviews? Get out.

This both delights me and reminds me of a friend’s catch-all response to posts about HP Lovecraft talking about wanting to live in a strange world full of wonder: “But Howie, you didn’t even like immigrants.”

My favorite Lovecraft story happens to be At the Mountains of Madness. Something that's always struck me as funny about the story is that Howard makes it very clear we are to view the starfish creatures as capital M Men. Human equivalent. It's both hilarious and really sad that H.P. can humanize alien space squid but can't extend that same empathy to people of other colors.
Ruthanna Emrys wrote an *amazing* treatment of Mountains of Madness with her Litany of Earth and the follow-up Aphra Marsh series. She uses the Deep Ones as a metaphor for people of color, and in fact Aphra is rooming with a Japanese family after WWII. It's a really cool and inclusive look at Lovecraft's texts, and I strongly recommend it. Ironically, it was recommended to me by one of the EA/LW people I named in my thread -- but Emrys and I have made fun of them on Twitter before, so it's all good.
One of the quotes on [Lovecraft's wikiquote page](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/H._P._Lovecraft#Letters), from a letter to Clark Ashton Smith, sort of shows how he reconciled these two attitudes: "I do differ from you radically in respect to *familiar things & scenes*; for I always demand close correlation with the landscape & historic stream to which I belong, & would feel completely lost in infinity without a system of reference-points based on known & accustomed objects. I take complete relativity so much for granted, that I cannot conceive of anything as existing *in itself* in any recognisable form. What gives things an aspect & quasi-significance to us is the fact that we view things consistently from a certain artificial & fortuitous angle. Without the preservation of that angle, coherent consciousness & entity itself becomes inconceivable. Thus my wish for freedom is not so much a wish to put all terrestrial things behind me & plunge forever into abysses beyond light, matter, & energy. That, indeed, would mean annihilation as a personality rather than liberation. My wish is perhaps best defined as a wish for *infinite visioning & voyaging power,* yet without loss of the familiar background which gives all things significance. I want to know what stretches *Outside,* & be able to *visit* all the gulfs & dimensions beyond Space & Time. I want, too, to juggle the calendar at will; bringing things from the immemorial past down into the present, & making long journeys into the forgotten years. But I want the familiar Old Providence of my childhood as a perpetual base for these necromancies & excursions—& in a good part of these necromancies & excursions I want certain transmuted features of Old Providence to form part of the alien voids I visit or conjure up. I am as geographic-minded as a cat—*places* are everything to me. Long observation has shewn me that no other objective experience can give me even a quarter of the kick I can extract from the sight of a fresh landscape or urban vista whose antiquity & historic linkages are such as to correspond with certain fixed childhood dream-patterns of mine. Of course my twilight cosmos of half-familiar, fleetingly remembered marvels is just as unattainable as your Ultimate Abysses—this being the real secret of its fascination. Nothing really known can continue to be acutely fascinating—the charm of many familiar things being mainly resident in their power to symbolise or suggest unknown extensions & overtones."

The r-bomb is the n-bomb for white people. Ironically, this is “identity politics” par excellence. You want to be a Good Person^TM but racists are not Good People, so you can’t be racist. Thus, it is easier to protect one’s identity by denying the accusation than questioning your own position. Pointing out an atrocity is worse than the atrocity itself.

>The r-bomb is the n-bomb for white people If we replaced the last couple of letters of "racist" with something else, and pronounced it slightly differently, could we claim that we're not really using the r-word and they can't get mad at us for it?
Call 'em raceys, that sounds pretty cool and "down with the kids".
But language that's "down with the kids" also tends to be the kind of language that "thugs" and "inner city youth" use, is that really something an r-word would want to be associated with? I feel like you're just coming up with more slurs for the poor disenfranchised class of r-words. They already can't eat spicy food, do you really want to kick them while they're down?
I think raceys can eat spicy food if they actually pulled their pants up, stopped whinging about it, and actually put some effort in. It's their culture that's the problem.
The thing that's holding them back is government handouts of mayo. Other model majority cultures are able to adapt to eating spicy food, why can't white Americans? Edit: I hope you realise that if either of us ever get the opportunity to work for the NYT, people are going to dig up these comments and have a big cry about them.
Call them Racinalists
Stop trying to make raça happen! It's not going to happen!
raciologist?
Racist Realism.

I think there’s also a significant class element here. American white supremacy has, historically, done a very good job of providing paths for ambitious white workers to mobilize into the upper classes (historically, the big ones are the homestead act and redlining, but there’s many more). The nexis to tech work isn’t as direct (at least domestically, that is, all that wealth is definitely coming via the exploitation of east asian workers), but I think history has created a ready-made set of cultural ideas that cause racism to remain very attractive to upwardly mobile white laborers

So where once you had free soilers agitate for more stolen native land, and mid-20th-century suburbanites sign restrictive covenants and petition their local AFL-CIO steward to keep out negros and commies, you now have well-compensated techies intuitively reaching into the rhetorical/ideological toolbox of their forebears. Same as it ever was imo

Yes, it's the famous "racial bribe": the white ruling class drops a ladder of privilege and economic mobility down to the white working class, which keeps them placated but also divided against (and superior to) nonwhites, conveniently preventing the alliances from forming along class boundaries instead. That ladder's rungs of economic mobility have mostly fallen out lately (except in the tech industry), so they're now reinforcing the rungs of privilege. EDIT: hence different racisms for different classes. White middle: *I'm doing well but minorities aren't; there must be something inherently wrong with them.* White working: *I'm not doing well and it's their fault!* Affluent techies are living in 1950s America while struggling coal miners are in 1930s Germany.
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -LBJ
Reminds me of Ta-Nehesi Coates' [article](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/the-first-white-president-ta-nehisi-coates/537909/) that I only just read the other day.

Probably not worth a thread of its own, but there have been some amazing galaxy-brain takes on the Jeong hiring in today’s CW thread. My favorite is probably this one by Glopknar, which is so bad he actually realizes towards the end how uncharitable he’s being and tries to head objections off at the pass:

Obviously everything above is prone to accusations of uncharitability. Your mileage, as always, will vary. However, this is an accurate description of what I was like when I was an anti-white leftist, and it’s corroborated by everyone I know who also was one, but eventually exited that sphere. Maybe, reader, you are different. But I didn’t understand these things about myself until I’d long left that ideology behind.

With the ol’ “if you’re a leftist and this description of your ideology sounds like insane nonsense to you, it’s because you’re still brainwashed!” gambit.

Point well taken.

Also, blogorrheic whitesplanation, fucking fantastic.

Epistaxis with the consistently good sneers, A+

Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.

I think you’re right about a lot of things, but the mods will probably want you to tag this as NSFW since it’s not a sneer.

I was trying to figure that out and I thought it was probably in that category but I wasn't sure I understood. Now I'm more sure so I've marked it. Thanks.

This seems like a perfect description of how Rationalists talk about race.

This seems to me like a perfect description of how most people talk about racism, tbf.

And many anti-racists take offense at the idea that racism is a spectrum, and that we should be patient and empathetic with racists, because they consider it as racism apologia.

Yeah, I think the Sneer was "ok", but if I was going to show it to my fragile white friends it wouldn't quite hit the mark since they view racism as a spectrum and find the dichotomy silly.

Or are you just the punching bags they use to practice their arguments (which are only for convincing themselves that they’re being reasonable, not for changing the minds of any neutral observers anyway), the token dissenters whose presence lets them believe they’re consuming a balanced diet of worldviews? Get out.

I suspect it might be worse. With real punching bags, you can’t claim the pleasure of a victory over an opponent, but with internet arguments typically both sides emerge feeling satisfied with their correctness. So giving the satisfaction of the battle a lot of time not only lends practice, but reinforces this culture warring itself. Much like with trolls, denying the fun is important.

maternal superego so toxic

particularly when they feel implicated in white supremacy

Gee, it’s almost like people who’s worst crime is moving to the suburbs (both “white flight” and “gentrification” are bad - what do?) don’t like being put on the same level as the KKK.

As one of SSCs like 3 non-Communist left-wingers, there are countless examples of actual racism in the rationalist community. This concept creep of terms like “white supremacy” does nothing but obfuscate & yes, make normies like me roll my eyes.

Whose job is it to change how white people react when racism is called racism? It might be DiAngelo's job and maybe that's exactly what she's doing here. But if white people are going to freak out like you've called them concentration camp guards every time you just mention that something they said was racially insensitive, it's very hard and maybe counterproductive for everyone else to seek euphemisms that won't get their knickers atwist. E.g. "white supremacy" is an academic term from critical race theory that I suspect has grown in popular usage because it's less derailing than "white privilege", which makes white people react by listing all the privileges they don't have. What I take away from this is that trying to have sincere dialogue about race on the internet is pointless. White people's hair-trigger defensiveness is far too ingrained for anything but a careful, patient, intimate conversation of the kind that can't happen between strangers in pseudonymous comment threads. It doesn't matter which words or [tones](https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/90yue6/by_far_the_stupidest_idea_that_rationalists_have/) you avoid, and attemping the impossible productive discussion might actually get people to dig their trenches deeper instead.
> It doesn't matter which words or tones you avoid, and attemping the impossible productive discussion might actually get people to dig their trenches deeper instead. Lol no. This is just more evidence that the Left simply doesn't understand what politics is. The way to open up a "productive discussion" has nothing to do with tone or content, it's about *framing*. All politics is about an Us versus a Them, humans are inherently groupish and coalition-building creatures who will always see the world in terms of rival groups. However, what those rival groups actually are is always socially constructed, and the way that different coalitions are constructed is through the *framing* of political rhetoric and arguments. The reason the far-right is winning today is because the liberal anti-racists like DiAngelo have for decades simply bought into their framing of politics as being a conflict between races rather than challenging that framing. They may talk big about how "race is socially constructed" and "racism is systemic", but in practice they show absolutely no pragmatic understanding of what this actually means and what its implications are. They literally address white people *as white people* and present themselves as a racial Other, and then start lecturing them about racism in insulting and inflammatory ways ("white fragility", seriously? What clueless ivory tower dweebs even come up with this stuff?), as if anyone would ever accept a moralistic lecture from their avowed enemy. The reason older leftist movements had success fighting racism wasn't because they used special argumentative tones to placate white people, it was because "meta-narrative" ideologies like Marxism and (left-wing) Christianity were taken seriously and they provided a different political framing where peoples of different races could exist in solidarity and mutual identification as workers against capitalists, or as good Christians against corrupt sinners. Once people of different races saw themselves as being on the same team against a different Other, the unjust and self-defeating nature of racism within their collectivities would have been immediately apparent to dominant and marginalized people alike, and thus the problem would have been easier to talk about and actively rectify.
> They literally address white people as white people and present themselves as a racial Other DiAngelo is white and uses the terms "we" and "us" when addressing white people in the book. > "white fragility", seriously? What clueless ivory tower dweebs even come up with this stuff? [DiAngelo herself coined the term in 2011](http://libjournal.uncg.edu/index.php/ijcp/article/view/249), based on her copious experience as a diversity educator whose job was to try to talk to fellow white people about whiteness. I think the disconnect here is that (at least based on the few chapters I've read so far) DiAngelo isn't trying to talk about politics in the first place. If anything she's going out of her way to avoid partisanship, in order to avoid triggering that other knee-jerk reflex. In fact she emphasizes repeatedly that she thinks progressives who are unaware of their prejudices are doing more harm than overt racists are.
> E.g. "white supremacy" is an academic term from critical race theory that I suspect has grown in popular usage because it's less derailing than "white privilege", Growing up (I’m 30), “white supremacy” had a *very* specific meaning - KKK. Neo-Nazis. The capital R racists on SSC - you know who I’m talking about, But now “white supremacy” means.....nothing. Or *everything*. I’m sure there are leftists on this sub who consider me a white supremacist because I don’t support Ta Nehisi-Coates style reparations. If whites are as fragile and sensitive *and* as all-powerful as you guys like to claim, do you think continuing to call whites fragile and sensitive will make us....support you? There’s a real disconnect in leftist racial rhetoric - whites are simultaneously omnipotent and control all relevant institutions and will never ever give an inch yet you make no effort to actually *court* this all-powerful demographic. Quite the opposite. It’d be **uncharitable** of me to claim that this disconnect is because leftists either don’t believe whites are as sensitive as they claim or they don’t believe whites are as omnipotent as they claim, but hey, we’re in SneerClub so fuck SSCs rules. You guys don’t believe one of those - your rhetoric and actions would be much different if you did. As horrid as Communism is, my fears of it are precisely zero because of shit like this - leftists actively work against their own goals without even realizing it.
> But now “white supremacy” means.....nothing. Or everything. Wikipedia: > > In academic usage, particularly in usage which draws on critical race theory, the term "white supremacy" can also refer to a political or socioeconomic system where white people enjoy a structural advantage (privilege) over other ethnic groups, on both a collective and individual level. Another similar term that also seems to have been abandoned because it derails conversations is "institutionalized [r-word]". It just refers to the fact of how society and politics are currently set up. In my post I carefully used the term "white supremac**ism**" to refer to the ideology that the current white supremac**y** is *good* and society *should* be set up that way. --- > If whites are as fragile and sensitive and as all-powerful as you guys like to claim, do you think continuing to call whites fragile and sensitive will make us....support you? I'm not sure I can answer that on behalf of DiAngelo; I haven't read the book yet but the review says she takes an extremely cautious tone when specifically addressing white audiences, which I'm not trying to do here. In this thread I'm not actually trying to convince offended white people that they shouldn't be offended; I'm describing the situation for observers. (And my conclusion is that the whole addressing-white-people-about-race thing is never going to work on the internet no matter which words we taboo; I'd welcome disagreement from people more optimistic than me, but so far I'm not feeling that view shaken.)
> And my conclusion is that the whole addressing-white-people-about-race thing is never going to work on the internet no matter which words we taboo; I'd welcome disagreement from people more optimistic than me, but so far I'm not feeling that view shaken. I think this is somewhat overly fatalist. I do agree that laying out the facts and figures of racism on r/ssc is unlikely to change minds, partly because of fragility and partly because laying out the facts and figures of anything is not the most persuasive tactic. One effective method I've seen work on the internet is to offer people a meaningful identity group (be it leftist, feminist, activist, or, say, sneerer against overconfident rational cultists), and then push anti-racism as part of that group. People will be less defensive of their white identity if it is for the sake of something better.
I hate to say it but the most effective group I've seen that seems to push anti-racism while appealing to the SSC demographic is /r/braincels. SSC has a strong attraction to the "nerdy guy who has a hard time getting laid, spends too much time on the internet, and loves memes" demographic, and that seems to be where a lot of Scooter's anti-feminism is pitched from. /r/Braincels is the only place I've seen that actively pushes anti-racism for that demographic.
There's a good reason for this: incels see the world through a different political frame, where the primary social conflict is men vs women and not race vs race. When men from different races are seen as comrades against a different enemy and not as the Other, suddenly questions of racial justice become a matter of common sense, and not offensive or threatening at all.
> (be it leftist, feminist, activist, or, say, sneerer against overconfident rational cultists) Aren't these groups that are already anti-racist?
Of course, but people who are ignorant about anti-racism still join those groups for other reasons, and are probably the easiest targets to educate. For a real life example, I joined my local climate change activist group without much knowledge of indigenous struggles, but those issues were important to the group and thus became important to me. Of course, some people will never get it, but it does seem easier to get people from a sideways approach.
>do you think continuing to call whites fragile and sensitive will make us....support you? oh but i thought people should be brave truth-tellers who tell it like it is, and not sugar-coat things merely to gain public favor :\^)
>If whites are as fragile and sensitive and as all-powerful as you guys like to claim, do you think continuing to call whites fragile and sensitive will make us....support you? There’s a real disconnect in leftist racial rhetoric - whites are simultaneously omnipotent and control all relevant institutions and will never ever give an inch yet you make no effort to actually court this all-powerful demographic. Quite the opposite. The issue isn't that white people are all powerful, it's that the institutions of American society are built to cater to white people. The institutions themselves are instruments of power, but no more powerful than those of any other state in history. The goal isn't to "win over white people", whether by being belligerent or by being nice. The goal is to build a consistent and accurate critique of the state, and together with that a movement that can challenge it. White people are welcome to join said movement if they agree with its platform, but watering down central elements of our societal critique to appeal to people who already clearly aren't willing to make sacrifices isn't going to help anyone.
First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. -Martin Luther King Jr
This is me being genuinely curious, what sacrifices would white people be expected to make?
/u/zhezhijian is right, although it's also worth adding that serious political organizing on the left means more than holding a bunch of political views in common: we need people who are committed to organize as workers and to confront oppressive institutions. At the very minimum, this means using your free time, energy, and money to build organizations and support others in a project that is unlikely to materially compensate you any time soon (if ever). It also means that you're going to be exposing yourself to harassment and potentially physical danger as well, from total strangers, from people they know, and from the government. I have comrades who get graphic death threats on a regular basis; even though 99.9% of those are likely just internet trolls who don't pose any real threat, it's still psychologically jarring to be on the receiving end (and that's not even getting into the dangers of confronting fascists or police in the streets). It's worth noting this isn't just white people: if anything, activists who are POC or otherwise marginalized have to make *more* sacrifices because they are disproportionately targeted by our enemies: trolls pick on them more, and the police are quicker to use violent tactics against them. This is the unfortunate reality of our society: I am white and cis-male presenting and have never received targeted harassment due to my organizing. My female comrades have received rape and death threats by name, to their emails and on the internet. My Black comrades are reliably the first people that the police go after with clubs and riot gear when they decide it's time to break up our protest. My Arab comrades are singled out by Islamophobic PR firms that then publish character assassinations about them on websites like Canary Mission We're not asking everyone to become communist ascetics who do nothing but think and work for the movement. If nothing else, that's not super sustainable and leads to burnout. But organizing means putting yourself in the line of fire both physically and emotionally, and if someone is not even willing to entertain for a minute that maybe their unexamined behavioral habits are unwittingly supporting systems of oppression, they're not going to be reliable when you need them to sign a public statement, pass out flyers, or confront fascists face to face.
An incredible reply. Most people have no idea how much work it is to make something happen. That means they have no idea what the gap is in between what a fully informed, ethical, and committed human being _should_ be doing, and what they are _actually_ doing. My organizing work has been much more mainstream--I've been focused on helping the San Francisco Bay Area build more housing, which means upzoning rich white suburbs. Most of my friends are liberal enough to recognize that rich white suburbs need to get upzoned, they get that exclusionary zoning has racist undertones and they're woke enough to castigate me any time I say something un-PC, and they're seeing a third of their paycheck going to landlords. They know perfectly well what the illiberal dynamics at play are, they're politically aligned with the people who want to fight that, they're facing _significant_ material deprivation that they can see in their bank accounts every month...and yet, the moment I ask someone if they wanna go canvass a neighborhood, they say no. And these are people who are already informed. The best I can do is get them to vote, but they somehow are still stuck in the mindset that mere voting is enough. But it's not enough. We need people to show up to city council meetings, we need people to ask hard questions about why _this_ specific affordable housing complex hasn't been built yet, we need to ask old white people how they plan to help California decrease its carbon footprint if they keep blocking public transit. We need people to show up to farmer's markets asking for signatures for petitions, we need people to knock on doors and tell renters who to vote for. We need people to find out which members of our community are in danger of being evicted and we need to force their landlords to freeze their rents. We need to talk to each other, we need to run for office, we need to raise money to repeal Proposition 13. And this is just for getting housing built in one metro area of one state. This is an issue a million times less tricky and difficult than racism. It never ceases to amaze me how little we can expect in any kind of civic engagement from most people, let alone any kind of truly _radical_ civic engagement. I actually think I might start trying to make friends with people who are completely ignorant of politics, because I feel _such_ overwhelming rage, when an expensively educated person who thinks cultural appropriation is bad still refuses to knock on doors.
The bright side is that this isn't just true for our side, it's true for everyone. As much as it hurts to see friends and family refuse to lift a finger to change things that they know are wrong, if anything the right is less willing to put feet on the street (paper tigers and all that). Granted, they get to play by different rules because they have the tacit support of the state (see: last Saturday's fascist and anti-fascist rallies in Portland and Berkeley where anti-fascists outnumber the fascists only to have the police attack them to pave the way for the smaller fascist contingent), but at the end of the day it just goes to show that most people are not willing to put in effort to assert themselves politically.
I guess? I think it depends on the particular dispute though--re: progressive housing policies, the people most negatively affected are the young, the transient, the poor and the POCs, and for various reasons they don't have the time to do things like become planning commissioner, join city council, etc. Housing politics are dominated by old white homeowners who are _retired_ and have the time to bog down the gears of local governments. In terms of showing up for their own side, they're doing a much better job than the pro-housing coalition. What kind of organizing are you involved with?
I'm primarily in socialist organizing and anti-ICE activism. You're absolutely right about housing policy though, which is structurally heavily biased toward wealthy landowners.
White people could start by ceasing to act as thought being called a racist was worse than actually being racist. Instead of getting defensive, they could take being called a racist as an opportunity to reflect for a moment and work on being better, instead of flipping out about a lack of civility. You can see this in how Scooter claims the word 'racist' is like using a nuclear bomb to end a debate. White people could also take the initiative to find and read some books about race issues, instead of asking people to explain things to them.
More than that, though, understanding the historical and systemic aspects. Otherwise it degenerates into a form of etiquette and HR-ism. (It doesn't surprise me that DiAngelo is a consultant.)
That's a hard thing to ask most people though. They see "racist" as a bad character trait; that bad people are racist. They on the other hand, are good people, and good people aren't racist. So when you call them racist it's really hard for most people to not get defensive because you've basically called them bad people and they know they're not bad people, therefore you must be wrong.
Yes, that is why I am a pessimist and do not think we will ever fix racism. So is Ta-Nehisi Coates. I get it's a hard thing to ask. I've certainly fucked up my fair share of times re: identity politics. I've been, in retrospect, an incredible asshole to a bisexual friend, to a Jewish acquaintance, and probably many more people. On the other hand, just because it was hard, doesn't mean I didn't do harm. I was ignorant, but I still regret everything I've done. "It's hard" isn't supposed to be moral absolution. Like, say you knock over a priceless vase. You didn't _mean_ to, it was an accident, but that doesn't change the fact that the vase is broken and the owner needs to be made whole. And that you need to be a part of that, good intentions or no. What do you think of applying "it's hard" to climate change? When many more people are dying in heat waves, and climate refugees are pouring in from the global south to the global north, and there's drought and mass starvation--do you think people in the future are going to look kindly on us and shrug and say, "well, overcoming collective action problems is hard, economists proved it with game theory"? Hell no. I suppose some of our descendants will acknowledge that we had a monumentally difficult task, made difficult by politics and human nature itself, but they're going to be royally pissed off at us, and they will have a right to be.
I don't know what the best method is. I think the way of discussing racism where one party feels like they are being personally attacked (legitimately or not) is probably the worst way. I think like all subjects that people attach to their identity (e.g. Religion), you need to need to show people patterns that exist that maybe they're not aware of so that they can start to see them in friends and eventually in themselves. Big shifts in perspective don't take place because a 3rd party told you that you're wrong, they take place slowly as you start to find ways to reconcile the ways that you thought and acted with being ignorant or mistaken or some other way to shift the blame for your own moral failings. Eventually you can then identify with the other position.
What 'white fragility' is, is that no matter how you bring up racism, white people go on the defensive. That's the problem. If there was a way to discuss racism without making white people feeling personally attacked, POCs would be all over it already. Given white expectations of how racism works, there's pretty much no way of saying "hey this thing you're doing negatively affects POCs" without them going "gasp! you calling me RACIST??" > Big shifts in perspective don't take place because a 3rd party told you that you're wrong, they take place slowly as you start to find ways to reconcile the ways that you thought and acted with being ignorant or mistaken or some other way to shift the blame for your own moral failings. Yes, pretty true, you're more likely to change if your friends and family persuade you to stop being racist. However, birds of a feather flock together. And we overestimate people's willingness to change. I've been engaged in a long war to convince my dad that Muslims are not subhuman and I'm not winning.
Another awkward point is that white people tend to me more receptive to anti-racism if it comes from another white person, due to the bullshit belief that white people are more "objective". Which means white people need to step up here, but on the other hand white "allies" don't have a great track record.
To be honest, I don't think this is unique to white people. (I have seen similar reactions when different minority representatives have clashed with each other) it's just that, for obvious reasons, white people doing is both more visible and more harmful.
I don't think defensiveness is unique to white people either, for sure, and I think you're right it's both more visible and worse when white people do it. I do think white people are likely to react more poorly though, since they are the ones who are going to be accused of committing the most racist acts. Pretty much nobody else is going to be accused of propping up a racist criminal justice system, gentrification, overrepresentation in politics, exclusionary zoning, a history of owning slaves, etc.
If you do actually believe in racial equality, none really, because you would not see them as sacrifices. In fact, there could even be material benefits depending on class if you look at, say, the South where the slavocracy limited public investment. If you don't, though, then it's an unthinkable sacrifice. Ending the class society that birthed racism, ending imperialism and settler-colonialism, ending environmental disparities, etc. No one running the show wants to give that up of course.
> If whites are as fragile and sensitive *and* as all-powerful as you guys like to claim, do you think continuing to call whites fragile and sensitive will make us....support you? So you're saying we shouldn't call white people fragile and sensitive because they're... fragile and sensitive?
>I’m sure lol, good epistemology
> will make us....support you? You don't speak for me.
> Or everything Well, capitalism is everything, but white supremacy is just a rung below that.
> (both “white flight” and “gentrification” are bad - what do?) Its almost like analyses of racism based in individual actions rather than systemic structures aren't very good at capturing what's wrong with racism, and that people who individually don't seem to do anything that's particularly bad can still be complicit in large-scale harm done.
That's kind of the problem. The usual moral frameworks don't deal particularly well with that kind of complicity. (and most legal systems explicitly reject them) And it should be noted, racism was a term explicitly coined as a term of moral reprimand.
I'm grumpy from having spent the past hour dealing with Springer's obnoxious online article submission process, so I don't have the patience to let this bullshit stand on this subreddit. You can come back in a week.
Annoying though the Springer system is, at least you get some indication that the thing is being processed. Unlike the situation I'm having at the moment where the editor didn't send an acknowledgement, and also ignored the followup email I sent 4 weeks later asking for one (assuming he even received either of them). Anyway, good luck with your paper.
> Anyway, good luck with your paper. Thanks!
well at least it's not Nature where (for good reason, frankly) they just tell you to cram it 18 hours after submission.