r/SneerClub archives
newest
bestest
longest
54

A few days ago a writer under the pseudonym Scott Alexander published a weblog post that begins with “I don’t know much about gay history, but the heavily mythicized version of it I heard goes like this:” What is this? Let’s examine it with a commitment to truth, not “myth.”

At first open homosexuality was totally taboo. A few groups of respectable people with hilariously upper-class names like The Mattachine Society and The Daughters Of Bilitis quietly tried to influence elites in favor of more tolerance, using whatever backchannels elites use to influence one another. They had limited success, but they comforted themselves that at least they were presenting a likeable and respectable face for homosexuality that was improving the lifestyle’s public reputation.

The Mattachine society was formed in the immediate post-World War II environs of LA, as a secret group of queer men. One of the core founders, Henry Hay, had been inspired by native American spirituality and communist solidarity to form a group to help other queer men escape “isolation from their own kind.” Hay believed that there was a suppressed “homosexual minority,” and that queer relationships had been socially acceptable in pre-modern societies. In 1950, Hay and a cohort organized the Mattachine in “a cell-like structure that would guarantee its members anonymity,” and gatherings for social solidarity. It was primarily about bringing queer men together, secondarily about educating each other and heterosexuals, and thirdly about providing leadership out of oppression for “the whole mass of social deviates” (White 2009:18). In 1852–53, Mattachine society played a role in the creation of the first gay rights magazine. At it’s inception it had a progressive charter—the “board” of the magazine had a mandate for racial diversity and three women were included as “trustees” of the magazine (White 2009:34).

The secret of the Mattachine society was broken nationally in the spring of 1952. A society member, Dale Jennings had been entrapped by a police officer in MacArthur Park, LA. Henry Hey jumped at the opportunity to fight against the oppression of gay men, and so paid Jenning’s bail and convinced a defense attorney to take the case. The society promoted the trial as a perversion of justice and liberty, declaring homosexuals have become aware “of themselves as a social Minority with the group culture characteristics (patterns, problems, and oppressions) that are common to all Minorities similarly persecuted by baseless myth and vulgar prejudices” (as quoted in White 2009:25). During the trial, the police officer had been caught in a lie, and the jury had been locked 11-to-one favoring acquittal. The judge dismissed the charges and Jennings was allowed to walk free.

The Daughters of Bilitis was formed in the 1950s (as the wikipedia article indicates) in response to social isolation lesbians were feeling and police crackdowns on bars. The Daughters had been somewhat involved with the Mattachine society and One Magazine, but as a founding member of the Daughters explained in 1959:

What do you men know about lesbians? In all of your programs and your Mattachine Review you speak of the male homosexual and follow this with—oh yes, and incidentally there are some female homosexuals, too… ONE Magazine has done little better. For years they have relegated the lesbian interest to the column called “Feminine Viewpoint.” So it would appear to me that quite obviously neither organization has recognized the fact that lesbians are women and that this twentieth century is the era of emancipation of women… (Del Martin, as quoted in Bullough 2008:164)

It had been in 1955, Del Martin and her partner Phyllis Lyon had moved in together and wanted to meet other lesbians. They helped form the Daughters of Bilitis and was one of the first organization for lesbian activism in country.

Now, let us take a step back and evaluate truth of the statements Scott “Alexander” makes. Were these few groups composed of “respectable people”? Hays was a bit of an eccentric and Jennings (who established ONE) was a park cruiser. Were these people part of the “elite”? Del was a reporter for a daily in San Francisco and Phyllis was a waitress before joining the Daughters. Many of the members of the Mattachine society were young men who’d served in the war. These people were not back channeling elites. Did they “comforted themselves that at least they were presenting a likeable and respectable face for homosexuality that was improving the lifestyle’s public reputation”? FUCK. NO. Jennings admitted in court that he was a homosexual, and the Mattachine fought back against the dominant culture of homophobic violence directed at queer people.


Now we are left to consider what’s next? Do we take on the idea that it was “few totally-non-respectable outsiders with nothing to lose – addicts, drag queens, men with lots of chest hair” who, in opposition to the queer elites, “respectability cascaded” through history? What would even be the point? To tackle such a question would be to do more work that Scott with zero the cushy ad revenue from rationalist Manhattan psychologists and FOOD SQUARES.

But here’s my confusion: what is this “myth” that Scott is promulgating? Where does it come from? What is the underlying connections to the rest of the piece. It’s can’t be a coincidence that Alexander Jones’ cited rant was about chemicals turning people gay. Why is myth of gay elites so weirdly similar to anti-Semitic conspiracy theories (or worse—the racist-as-fuck homosexual history written by the neo-Nazi James O’Meara)?


One final thing I’d like to call attention to, something I think worth meditating on about rationalists armchair culture and the politics of reactionary centrism: where is human agency in these theories of social change? Scott’s “respectability cascade” has one group of agents (scheming queers) and then the 0% respectables. What happens? With nothing to lose, strung out on drugs, in drag, and hairy, they just naturally expose themselves as sexual deviants. Then respectability “cascades.” Jonathan Haidt has us all programmed to be either southern bigots or corruptible coastal liberals. Steven Pinker is the pope of quietism. These people don’t believe in people. These people are misanthropes. And if these people were committed to the truth, they’d admit this.

EDIT: I’m shamed to admit that I have been banned for truth from /r/SSC

One thing I’ve heard is that the NYC chapter of Mattachine (or at least a few prominent members) were outspoken against the Stonewall riots for basic “respectability politics” reason. They had at that point gotten a few radio interviews and had some weak connections in city hall, and thus believed that the riots would undermine progress. History proved them wrong.

Anyway, I expect that is the bit of history that filtered through to Scott.

Some details here: https://isreview.org/issue/63/stonewall-birth-gay-power
On the other hand, a pervasive retconned myth [1] is that Stonewall was propagated by otherwise “respectable” people; in this version of history, for nearly a week the rioters rioted nightly, then went home to their dorms at NYU or apartments uptown. Only afterwards did the radicals in the Gay Liberation Front sully the respectable and lily-white (respectable because it was lily-white, assumed to be lily-white because it was respectable) action at Stonewall with their addictiveness, drag-queeniness, and hairiness. In an abundance of charity (and then some) to Scott, his “myth”/just-so story of gay history may be him riffing on this starting off point. [1] Which was more or less what I grew up hearing.
Ah, well. But is there really a broad recognition ("mythic") of the Mattachine society a mythic respectability-ists? I mean, not to betray myself but had I been asked 5 days ago about the society I would only have been able to vaguely gesture towards post-WWII queer-community making. BUT that would have only been because of a specific book I read a few years ago. I did not know about this Stonewall opposition 20 years later and on the other side of the states. Which is why I find the myth Scott purports to explicate difficult to locate: the Stonewall connection is really far down the wikipedia page and in the book I read to familarize myself with early activism (White's *Pre-gay L.A.*, 2009). White does say that there are conflicting histories of these early groups when he began working on such a history in the early 2000s (indeed, this is a common theme in the history of activism). And even I can think of some curious episodes of class-based differences of queer life in American history. Which I think has made it very difficult to recognize where this "myth" Scott is referencing is coming from---which I think is a key question. Because I feel like the idea that gays were backchannel agents is either 1) a weird interpretation of the lavender scare, or 2) something of an anachronistic placement of post-HIV *class*-activism into the 50s and the 60s. And I don't think I can emphasize this enough: this myth Scott promulgates is something I really don't recognize (except from what I've read about O'Meara's awful book---which you'd hope Scott was unfamiliar with....). I think that the idea of back channel elite queers is really weird, and troubling too. (And it might be worth making a point here that to say this thing is even a myth requires something of "textual" evidence that it actually exists. So that being said, I guess I'm willing to believe the "myth" is wholly of Scott's invention. But then I think it says some troubling things about Scott that this is the invention he shared on his blog.)
>Which I think has made it very difficult to recognize where this "myth" Scott is referencing is coming from---which I think is a key question. Occam's razor suggests that he's pulling a Trump Maneuver here: "the myth" is simply a label that Scott has assigned to his prior beliefs.
I know in Carter's Stonewall history, he set up a contrast between Mattachine/DoB and the "street level" rioters at Stonewall. It's been a while since I read it. [https://www.amazon.com/Stonewall-Riots-That-Sparked-Revolution/dp/0312671938](https://www.amazon.com/Stonewall-Riots-That-Sparked-Revolution/dp/0312671938) ​
That was after Hal Call took over the organization and the assimilationist vs culturalist split

As someone who found that his only coherent response to Scott’s post was to snag the “addicts, drag queens, men with lots of chest hair” flair, as someone whose only response to Jiro_T’s and VelveteenAmbush’s comments in the r/SSC post was to say, “Fuck,” can I just say thank you?

(Newbie question: are individual comments supposed to be flagged with NSFW?)

(no)
and good flair

The Mattachine Society was mostly divided on working-class vs middle-class lines (eventually leading to its self-destruction), so to claim they were ‘elites’ would be grossly misrepresentative.

For the other founders, I wouldn’t characterize Gernreich as an ‘elite’ despite his occupation as a fashion designer.

Like you said, Dale Jannings, Chuck Rowland and Hal Call were ex-military.

Bob Hull grew up in a suburb and was a research assistant.

Jim Gruber was a teacher and then joined the military.

There were a fuckton of communists in there too

I thought what Scott may have been trying to get as is the concept of their ‘respectable’ politics, but that doesn’t make much sense in his ‘respectability cascade’ theory being centered on the respectability of individuals

Yo, tag this serious shit. We’ve got rules for a reason.

Does that mean we can't sneer in this thread?
No.
I think it's important for me to register my non-endorsement of the second half of this comment

EDIT: I’m shamed to admit that I have been banned for truth from /r/SSC

It’s like WOPR said: A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

You’re going at it the hard way. The premises that “respectability” is 1) an objective quality of a person, and 2) a smooth contiuum, are completely absurd.

[deleted]

Can you explain how anything you just said makes this post "historically illiterate" and then fuck off because you're being dumb? >the revolution made it okay to be openly gay Jesus Fucking Christ
don't be a fucking dumbass. it's clear that scott was talking about gay rights in the US in the 20th century, and so was I.
> I barely know any LGBT+ history at all Don't worry, that was clear.