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On r/SSC, PM_etc. recently explained their ban from sneerclub:

I was banned for suggesting that some issue or other was in fact more subtle than it could seem.

Let’s check out the comment that got them banned. For the non-mods who can’t see the removed comment—if people edit their comments past-ban it really leaves us no choice but to remove them—I’ll quote it here:

I totally get the point of white nationalists, though. If you get it in your head that there is an ongoing struggle for power between ethnic coalitions, then you will find yourself buried in evidence that you are in fact correct.

It’s a little like 9/11 truthers. I don’t know if this is still the case, but for a long time there were otherwise reasonable people who thought 9/11 had probably been an inside job. And once that’s where your mind is the evidence comes in a deluge. Bad evidence, sure, but we’re not all trained to recognize that.

The evidence that there may be a covert race war going on is more convincing, in part since the question is so much harder to falsify. How would a world where White Nationalists are right differ from one where they are wrong? Given our current hysterical media ecosystem, I suspect that they would look the same to most people.

Which leads me to a tangent - this isn’t even a question of fact, this is a question of narrative, a self-fulfilling prophecy. If sufficiently many people believe that White Nationalists are wrong, then they will be, and vice versa.

E: aaaand banned. It’s been fun guys.

For some context, the thread was about the principle of charity, and the comment they replied to said “there is definitely something weird to pretending that racists white nationalists have good intentions”. And in response they went on a weird multi-paragraph steelman of white supremacists.


Anyway, PM_etc., if you see this, my long-standing offer is still in place. I’m willing to trade you an unban from sneerclub in exchange for one person of my choice getting permanently banned from SSC/the motte.

Organise a prisoner swap with me. We should also organise embassies in the respective subs. Diplomatic ties are essential to a healthy relationship.

Marxbro announces Molotov-Ribbentrop 2.0
[deleted]
I was banned for simply saying rational things in a "Rationalist" subreddit, my posts were making people so upset that they were going out of their way to install browser plugins to ignore/deplatform me. Most recently I was banned from Scott's blog for pointing out that David Friedman had falsified a citation in one of his books. Not sure if adding alcohol to the equation would make the anti-Marxists any less of an emotional powder-keg.
>David Friedman had falsified a citation in one of his books. I hadn't heard about this, link?
Thread on it: https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/b5hbh6/banned_from_ssc_for_exposing_friedmans_academic/
Why would I want to go to a meetup with rahionalists, no matter how many joints are there?
[deleted]
Would you do an irl meetup with penpractice? He comments on /r/slatestarcodex.
can we stop by dairy queen first

Basically Chapo Trap House except not funny or original

I resent the implication that CTH is funny or original

Or indeed that sneerclub is therewith associated
they'll never be as tawdry or unoriginal as us
They'd need years upon years more experience of extremely online for one thing
r/cth is literally 90% predictable memes. nothing you won't see on socialist tumblr or leftbook. it just happens to be the nexus of the reddit irony left lol
the remaining 10% is sectarian infighting (the tankies currently have the upper hand, having taken control of the mod team. never underestimate the power of a bunch of Stalinist NEETs who never go outside)
>r/cth is literally 90% predictable memes. Damn right it is, our brave posting warriors have worked hard to make it that way.

The fact that people are complaining about being unjustly banned from sneerclub is to my mind proof that the moderation policies have been insufficiently arbitrary. I suggest randomly banning 15 people a day for no reason until the complaining stops.

me first

Rules of sneerclub ‘racists are banned’

Obsidian: ‘perhaps the racists have a point’

Smart move there.

You mean it wasn’t for proclaiming himself an “ethno-utilitarian”?

are you gonna choose TPO or penpractice?

I don't deal with small fish. My hostage is Scott himself.
This would give Scott too much excuse for denying his responsibility for /r/slatestarcodex
But it also would be hilarious.
your argument is compelling
UNBLOCK ME SCOTT YOU COWARD

Much like a lot of face-to-face communication boils down to non-verbal cues, a lot of online communication boils down to emotive conjugation. Consider if Obsidian had said:

The worst thing is, if you put yourself in the Nazis’ shoes, from their warped point of view it makes perfect sense because like every good conspiracy theory once Nazism infects your brain every single thing in the world is suddenly evidence for it. Of course, some people have the basic skill of noticing what they are doing and saying “wait, fuck me, I am building a castle in the sky out of square pegs that I am fitting into round holes” – but not these people. It’s like the 9/11 conspiracy on steroids, with a new “threat to the American way of life” every day and a web of well-funded media outlets dedicated 24/7 to preventing people from reaching a critical level of self-awareness. I’d feel sorry for these people, except they are dealing in the worst kind of bullshit, which is self-fulfilling prophecy bullshit; the more people come to mentally live in their mirror universe, the more it sneakily replaces the sane universe that we are all originally from.

But Obsidian did not write it out like that, or even a little like that, because to see the difference between the original version and this one you’d need to be a dirty, motivated conflict theorist.

dude literally self-describes as an "ethno-utilitarian" there's steelmanning, and then there's being a fucking twat
WTF is an ethno-utilitarian? Someone who only cares if your “race” is useful to them? That’s some Eloi/Morlock shit right there.
Utilitarianism is the philosophy where it's good to murder someone in order to distribute their organs to save the lives of several other dying people. (At least, this is what Rationalists believe, and i am actually severely under-exaggerating.) *Ethno*\-utilitarianism is the philosophy where murdering a million people of other ethnicities in order to please one sick freak of the same ethnicity as you is not only justifiable, but morally mandated.
sir has correctly etc

Don’t ban me I don’t actually care about this but isn’t he just explaining confirmation bias?

> How would a world where White Nationalists are right differ from one where they are wrong? Given our current hysterical media ecosystem, I suspect that they would look the same to most people. > If sufficiently many people believe that White Nationalists are wrong, then they will be, and vice versa. They're claiming white supremacy is just a matter of opinion
[deleted]
Yes, that's definitely a thing everybody understands and can recognize. How else can one explain how chill and sensible most human behavior has historically been?
[deleted]
Ok, calm down

It was an unfair ban and you should be ashamed. And I say this based just in the quote you include in your post. I wasn’t aware of who PM_…etc. is or that there had been a ban at all.

The removed comment is an excellent illustration of the principle of charity. “Steelmanning” is the word you use when the principle of charity is applied to something you don’t like.

Don’t weakman completely-ineffable’s post like that. Try being charitable instead.
Well, that's just silly.
I don't care whether PMUO's comment was an excellent exemplar of charity. Racism is forbidden here. It doesn't get a pass for being a good example of a steelman or whatever.
Yeah, it's evident that you don't care. What I'm saying is that his comment was not an example of racism. Unless you think "trying to understand how racist people think" is racist. I think that comment was valuable because nothing is gained from mocking racists, one should try to understand why they think like they do. Same thing with anti-vaxxers, evolution deniers, and so on. The "offending" comment was inviting us to do something we rarely do, which is to _really_ consider how our opponents see the world and _why_. A small step, and sadly, quickly erased.
> nothing is gained from mocking racists, This is wrong.
Explain.
Same principle behind milkshaking them. They want to be taken seriously, and instead we should make them look ridiculous.
I think you lack perspective. _You_ mocking them won't ever make them shut up because as long as there are people willing to take them seriously, they will have an audience. Unless _everyone_ is mocking them (which will never happen), it's a futile exercise. Trying to understand why they think like they do may prove more useful, not to pander to them, but to design effective strategies to dissolve their basis of action. Now, I won't pretend to know how we'd go about that, of course, but I do know that nipping in the bud any attempt to do this doesn't get us any far in that task. Mocking is easy. Thinking is hard. We should think more.
> Trying to understand why they think like If that's what PMUO was doing, they were doing a really shitty job of it. I mean, I think it's good when people make materialist analyses of why nationalist and racist rhetoric is effective in politics. I think that's important and worthwhile. But PMUO isn't doing anything like that. >Thinking is hard. We should think more. Judging by how easily you are impressed by PMUO's faffing about here, you could stand to practice this yourself.
I was going to keep arguing with you but that shitty oneliner at the end made me give up. Have a nice day.
lmao that you think you won this argument
> I think you lack perspective. You mocking them won't ever make them shut up because as long as there are people willing to take them seriously, they will have an audience. Unless everyone is mocking them (which will never happen), it's a futile exercise. Seems like an uncharitable argument. Why do we have to make it so that there's absolutely no audience for racists? Of course there will always be racists that listen to other racists. It's fine to make them unpalatable for the general public. For example, consider Springtime for Hitler and American History X. Both ultimately have the message "Nazis bad", but American History X still gets taken up by Nazis as a "oh, look how bad ass Nazis are" sort of thing, because it treats them seriously, even if the ultimate message condemns them. Springtime for Hitler, on the other hand, treats Nazis with open ridicule and can't be used by Nazis as something to rally around. Taking Nazism or these other abhorrent views seriously provides legitimacy, even if your ultimate message is one of condemnation. Base mockery, on the other hand, sends the same message and grants no legitimacy. Thinking *is* hard, so why would you waste the effort on sickening, dehumanizing points of view? Toss those garbage ideologies in the bin and do something productive if you don't want to mock them.
> Seems like an uncharitable argument. I don't think so, since the mod's argument is literally "we need to make them look ridiculous" and my answer is "that's just not enough". > Why do we have to make it so that there's absolutely no audience for racists? I didn't say that. I said we won't ever accomplish that so we should pursue other lines of action. Mocking them will always be useless because it only deprives them of the audience they didn't have in the first place, i.e. us. Digging deeper would allow us to find out why and how they find fertile ground in _other people_'s minds and devise some strategies to change that. Of course we won't ever erradicate all racists. That's not the point. > For example, consider Springtime for Hitler and American History X. Both ultimately have the message "Nazis bad", but American History X still gets taken up by Nazis as a "oh, look how bad ass Nazis are" sort of thing, because it treats them seriously, even if the ultimate message condemns them. Springtime for Hitler, on the other hand, treats Nazis with open ridicule and can't be used by Nazis as something to rally around. This is actually a good point and if you reread the thread we're talking about, _Springtime for Hitler_ is actually mentioned as a paradoxical example of a play that was attacked from the leftist, anti-Nazi camp because it "offends people" anyway. This is just one of the ways the world looks like a battleground of crazies from both sides to the eyes of people who aren't you and me, and if those people were already racist, they will find their point of view legitimized by such controversies. That's why laughter will never work. We need to be serious. > Taking Nazism or these other abhorrent views seriously provides legitimacy, even if your ultimate message is one of condemnation. So, taking murder seriously provides legitimacy for murder? Should we laugh at murder? At rape? It's such a tempting argument to make but if you think about it for a minute it doesn't hold up. Racism is a serious issue and we should take it seriously. > Toss those garbage ideologies in the bin and do something productive if you don't want to mock them. The comment for which PM_...etc. was banned was an attempt at a productive discussion.
> an attempt at a productive discussion. In an attempt at restoring such to this thread, let me cease tolerating your apolegetics for apolegetics for racism.
Lets think about this ~~rationally~~best-ionally(\*\*), have you ever seen an example where (on the internet) just letting them(*) talk (or even debating them) didn't make stuff worse? But by not mocking them, but debating them you give them an audience. Every time people tried to 'lets just debate them' or 'lets just give them a small space' it backfires. Containment boards always fail at containing stuff and grows the problem. And funnily enough, racists do get the power of mocking, which is why they mock the SJWs as easily triggered soyboi snowflakes with fancy hair. They even openly admit this is the thing they are doing (or used to a couple of years ago), they want to bring back social shaming. Of course, it is a 2 pronged strategy. The ignorant centrists get debate where you need to steelman the neonazi position, the 'far' left gets talked about in strawmans and people ranting about how social constructs are not real, and saying 'karl marx believed in ghosts'. (This 'pretending to not understand the left' mixes with people also actually not understanding (or believing the lies) thus poisoning the discourse). *: them being racists/white nats/etc in general, not the specific group of weird cryptofascist posters who make themootte such an interesting cesspit. **: Scott your guide sucks.
>But by not mocking them, but debating them you give them an audience. Depends how you do it. * If someone is running a containment board, and you only debate them on the containment board, you **aren't** expanding their audience. The audience remains the same: the readers of the containment board. * If someone is running a containment board, and you create a new board which is a collection of links to the worst stuff on the containment board, you **are** expanding their audience. The audience has grown: the readers of the containment board, plus the readers of your new board. **EDIT**: This isn't a claim about whether containment boards are a good idea, just thoughts on how to respond to their existence. >The Streisand effect is an Internet-coined name (although the effect predates the popular usage of the Internet) for a phenomenon whereby an attempt to censor or gag a report has led to great interest in the story or work that nobody would have noticed had they not attempted to ban or censor it in the first place. > >**Some people have proposed that it be called Streisand's Law on account of how inevitable the effect is.** [From RationalWiki](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Streisand_effect). The Internet has been a major cultural force for two decades. But it's only recently that white nationalism has become popular online. What's the cause? One possibility is that interest in white nationalism rose as a reaction to political correctness, in the same way interest in Barbra Streisand's house rose as a reaction to her lawsuit. Does the data support this possibility? [Here are some graphs](https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/06/the-nytimes-is-woke.html) of NY Times coverage of social justice concepts. The graphs are a bit difficult to read. The last data point corresponds to 2018. So the 5th data point back corresponds to the year 2014. In 2014, NY Times interest in the word "whiteness" was skyrocketing. "Diversity and Inclusion" also. [Here](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=donald%20trump) is a graph of search interest in Donald Trump. As you can see, things only started picking up around June 2015. After a couple months of wall-to-wall negative media coverage, Trump was left with a [solid lead](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/2016_republican_presidential_nomination-3823.html) in the Republican primary polls, which he was able to maintain through the rest of the primary. My opinion: Unfortunately for all of us, the methods liberal journalists used to try and suppress Trump ended up backfiring. Just like Barbra Streisand's lawsuit. [Let's not repeat their mistakes](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/18/opinion/the-right-way-to-resist-trump.html).
Yeah, ["containment" boards don't work.](http://www.boundary2.org/2019/07/dennis-erasmus-containment-breach-4chans-pol-and-the-failed-logic-of-safe-spaces-for-far-right-ideology/) They turn them into bases.
I have never seen containment boards work like that. It always attracts more people, or more reactions like that which always put more pressure on mods to keep the shit in the containment board. Just saying 'don't do x, or get banned' always works better. Also you don't seem to get what I mean with containment board. I mean with containment board, 'hey suddenly a lot of people are talking about [bad subject x] lets make a new subforum for them so they can be horrible there on their own and we don't have to pay attention to them', stuff like the CW thread/themotte//pol/but even 'racist memes allowed shitpost subforums' etc. Which is different from just expelling them and saying, go build your own shitty place (iirc SA did this (and even 4chan did it eventually with the gamergaters and the pedos). The streisand effect doesn't really apply here, as that is about personal actions. Nobody is going 'ow look, germany bans holocaust denial, lets flood the german internet with more attention holocaust denial stuff'. Hell, I used to agree with the 'lets contain/debate them' stuff, but I have seen it in action and make stuff worse. E: euh wtf. Did you edit the post i replied to massively after i replied?
>Did you edit the post i replied to massively after i replied? It's possible, I have a tendency to keep editing even after publishing a comment, lol. Sorry about that, didn't expect such a fast reply.
I think this thread is a pretty good example of "thinking is hard."
If you want to understand racists, read one of the really great [critical scholarly histories of their movement](https://www.amazon.com/Bring-War-Home-Movement-Paramilitary/dp/0674286073/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=White+power+movement&qid=1562360480&s=gateway&sr=8-1), some of the rich [political psychology work on white identity and racial attitudes](https://www.amazon.com/Identity-Politics-Cambridge-Political-Psychology/dp/1108468608/ref=pd_sbs_14_22?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1108468608&pd_rd_r=d6fddccd-9f67-11e9-9939-3df0ddd91542&pd_rd_w=R4Ezv&pd_rd_wg=jkTpu&pf_rd_p=588939de-d3f8-42f1-a3d8-d556eae5797d&pf_rd_r=WTQDBGRTVX0YXR0SPW6Q&psc=1&refRID=WTQDBGRTVX0YXR0SPW6Q), or work on [the politics of ethnocentrism](https://www.amazon.com/Us-Against-Them-Ethnocentric-Foundations/dp/0226435717/ref=pd_cp_14_3?pd_rd_w=2UlyT&pf_rd_p=ef4dc990-a9ca-4945-ae0b-f8d549198ed6&pf_rd_r=2C8104C6K3K1958WTADD&pd_rd_r=30333cd0-9f68-11e9-92ca-d7bbe517374f&pd_rd_wg=1a8aH&pd_rd_i=0226435717&psc=1&refRID=2C8104C6K3K1958WTADD). All of these will help you understand real white bigotry and white nationalism in the world, and crucially none of them is white-nationalist propaganda that claims something wild like that white nationalism is some kind of perfectly valid alternative interpretive frame for looking at consensus reality.
You got a reading list that won't set someone back ~$60?
^^^libgen ^(at least for the first and third)
dgerard speaks true. If you want to dot i's and cross t's, each of the three books is cheaper in Kindle format. Or libraries.
I have been banned from almost all "Rationalist" spaces simply for arguing strongly for Marxism. The idea that their subs are open to other points of view is silly.
You should try taking arbitrary platitudes you don't even understand less seriously
"Lying" is the word you use to describe people pretending they don't actually hold extremist views, when their post history clearly shows they do. Also the terms 'terrible actor' and 'someone only a bonehead could possibly see as clever.'