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Lets talk about this post by scott. I can’t be the only one who thought it was weird. Like 2 big subjects (*) are not mentioned at all.

Like one of these subjects is such a big thing in American politics right now (at least from my filter bubble, considering people already got killed taking action against it) how can you not talk about that subject in a post like this.

And because it is boring and a gotcha, I’m not going to talk about the circular part of the argument. The, lets take a stance against calling people liars which makes people calling other liars the real liars. (E: also didn’t mention that this whole post was started because somebody said ‘hey perhaps we all are biassed towards think AGI is just around the corner and people are lying to us’. It is good scott addressed the central point of that argument there /s )

*: After thinking about the post, I realized that one of the big subjects, I thought was missing, is mentioned in the opening statement, but the bad word is taboo’d and not mentioned in the whole post. And suddenly the first section makes a lot more sense, who has a long discussion about the term abuse? And because I’m obnoxious, im also going to taboo both terms I thought were missing and only talk about them vaguely, so you can figure them out.

Am I the only one who had this experience reading this? Is this just very bad timing on scotts part and nobody in his social circle is talking about it?

E: btw, the title of the post is just a reference to faulty towers btw, I realize I shouldn’t drop 40 year old pop culture references anymore.

If everyone’s a liar, nobody is. I can accuse Donald Trump of lying constantly, and you can just nod your head and say “Oh, so you’re saying he’s not a perfect person free from all bias, whatever”. You’ll feel no need to decrease your opinion of him.

Why do I feel like he’s talking about his own thoughts on trump here? But what if you had some way to look at all the “lies” together, like each lie could update your belief that someone is a liar. If only something like that existed 🤷🏻‍♂️

the premise here is pretty clear: abusing language bad, abusing people ok.

If “lie” expands to include biased or motivated reasoning, who’s going to throw the first stone?

i mean, the us court system describes biased employmemt decisions a pretext all the time. the supreme court just did it a few weeks ago in a differentsituation. pretext is just a nice word for lie but maybe synonyms make him happy?

love the “I’m cheating by shifting from abuse to abusers” acknowledgement in section 1, followed up by constantly shifting from lie to liar.

My original reaction to the post was that Scott has a lot of borderline personality disordered friends in the EA community who place their moral decisions into accidentally outsized binary thinking. They really do talk to each other in this "out of control yarn ball of programming code" style so then he wrote the awful thing out. But I will be damned if you didn't make me think, yeah, this is exactly how Sam Harris argued about islamophobia and war in the Middle East with Noam Chomsky. He argued that it was mean to abuse him by calling him "pro-war" because anything he said in favor of war was in some kind of morally ambiguous "good faith" zone no matter what.

Scott acknowledges that “bad actors” are a thing, but apparently can only conceive of bad faith being used against people with sincerely-held beliefs, no mention of the use of “sincerely-held beliefs” as a guise for derailing discussion, JAQ’ing off, and/or shielding fascist talking points from criticism by trying to move the question of whether we should treat people equally into the realm of the subjective. That sort of bad faith, hiding-your-power-level bullshit is absolutely a form of lying, it saturated the CW thread before it became The Motte and abandoned most of that pretense, and the fact that Scott doesn’t acknowledge any of that further insists to me that Scott himself is engaging to some degree in bad faith himself.

The idea of which I really take no joy in. I prefer to think he’s just naïve, but he makes giving him the benefit of the doubt so difficult, mostly because of the time I spent engaging with his fan club, which drove home just how insidious this bad faith stuff can be, the exact kind of bad faith he pointedly ignores.

But, if he’s really just too dumb to see that stuff, then that’s also reason enough to discount anything he has to say on the matter. Which kind of gets to the consequentialist crux of it all: it doesn’t matter whether you’re lying or stupid, if you’re furthering the goals of white nationalism then it’s a good thing when people tell you to shut the fuck up.

This is basically an invitation to lie to Scott’s face as much as possible. I can’t possibly imagine anyone in his comments section doing that, though. Especially not those with academic careers.

It's really obvious to spot liars: they disagree with you despite having similar evidence.

I actually assumed this was a retread of the “If you use the word [racist] to describe anyone other than a literal KKK member, you’re Crying Wolf!” stuff, but you might be right.

Honestly, there’s so much winking subtext in his posts these days I never can be bothered trying to work out what he’s actually trying to say.

Words are useful because as they separate the world into categories

I’d like to nominate this for Scott’s stupidest sentence.

Scott's first degree was in philosophy

“so you see, calling donald trump a liar isn’t technically correct, because you can’t prove he doesn’t genuinely believe what he’s saying, and therefore if you say he’s lying you expand the definition of the term to the point where it’s useless. we have to extend our enemies the benefit of the doubt, unless they’re feminists of course”

This is a familiar argument. Scott’s instincts are telling him that conservatives are right and progressives are wrong, and he’s trying to find some pseudo-rational justification for that impulse. This business of definitions is convenient because nobody actually knows where the line is. Obviously if you called everything a lie the word would cease to have meaning, and if you called nothing a lie you wouldn’t be able to identify liars. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, and being deliberately vague about it allows Scott to always assert that the people he doesn’t like are using the word too broadly and the people he likes are doing it just right.

The underlying psychology here is the whole thing where you agree with 90% of Republican beliefs but live in a part of California where it’s culturally impossible for you to acknowledge to yourself that you actually are just a Christian conservative in all but name. I really wish these people would find Jesus, it would make all the bullshit a lot easier to cut through.

Oh, [they’re getting there. ](https://reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/cc65ul/rationalist_bible_study_was_rokos_basilisk_an/)

My read is there is a smuck they are trying to convince to support miri and they are getting themselves tied up in knots about whether it is unethical to spam them to “save the world”.

Is one of the taboo’d words “fascism?” Maybe “racism?” Otherwise I have no idea. *****

Standards have been (and should be) getting stricter. A thousand years ago, beating your wife wasn’t considered abuse as long as you didn’t maim her or something. A hundred years ago, you could bully and belittle someone all you wanted, but as long as there was no physical violence it wasn’t abuse. As society gets better and better at dealing with these issues, the definition of abuse gets broader. Maybe we should end up with a definition where basically everyone is an abuser.

Make up your mind. Are they getting stricter or are they getting broader?


If everyone’s a liar, nobody is.

God, the inanity of this logic. I realize he is basing that statement on this assumption:

Words are useful because as they separate the world into categories; this suggests a word should apply in more than 0% of cases but less than 100% of cases.

Which is a rather… structuralist?… way of thinking, but it’s that perfect combination of short, quippy, and wrong that makes it so easy for him to repeat. Let’s look at some other ridiculous pronouncements we could make using that construction:

  • If everyone is human, nobody is!
  • If everyone is alive, nobody is!
  • If everyone exists, nobody does!

This whole thing sounds like a really low-key attempt to counter the (correct) idea that “structural racism is a thing, actually, and basically all white people are racist to some degree.” In other words: “If everyone is racist, then nobody is!”

He made a pretty similar point about racism in *[Against Murderism](https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/06/21/against-murderism/)*. I actually agree with a large part of that post: a lot of people use "racism!" as the *conclusion* rather than the *starting point* of their analysis of a problem, which is lazy and pretty useless for finding solutions. Like, OK, you've defined 60% of the population to be racists, now what are you going to *do* about it?
I was thinking about rape and the concentration camps, but racism and fascism also work.
That's what I thought this was really about. A roundabout way to argue how "the left shouldn't call them concentration camps" while trying to come across more neutral and high-minded per usual.
Yeah, I was reading this and the opening story about the friend already struck me as weird, and due to scotts stance on the kolmogorov option and his weird remarks about how he at times acts like more liberal/left than he is I was doubtful going in. And eventually I just went, ow god why doesn't he mention the concentration camps, but is going on about autism. ('Achtually actually it's ephebophilia' would also fit as a current subject). It is like he went out of his way to not discuss these things without doing the honest thing and saying 'hey these things are currently hot topics, so im not going to talk about it'.
>>If everyone’s a liar, nobody is. > God, the inanity of this logic. I realize he is basing that statement on this assumption: ~ I don't think that's what he's saying--I think his argument is as follows: 1. liars are bad, 2. badness is determined by deviation from cultural averages (morality is socially constructed), 3. people can be grouped in a binary set: liar or not liar, and therefore, 4. by broadening the definition of what a liar is, we move people from "not liar" to "liar" and therefore the cultural average shifts to more liars and therefore being a liar becomes more tolerable. ...which is somehow an even more inane argument. Like, the ways in which is argument falls apart is impressive, even though it's heavily masqueraded.
Huh, I figured he was just doing Stupid Kant. (you know the thing about if everyone lies as a universal law then the concept of lying becomes meaningless and cancels itself out, which is why its Wrong To Lie)
>Which is a rather... structuralist?... way of thinking, but it's that perfect combination of short, quippy, and wrong that makes it so easy for him to repeat. Let's look at some other ridiculous pronouncements we could make using that construction: > > If everyone is human, nobody is! > > If everyone is alive, nobody is! > > If everyone exists, nobody does! Hmm, but obviously we have things like dogs, rocks, and unicorns that aren't human, alive or in existence respectively.
True, but we also have a great many things that aren't liars, and yet "If everyone's a liar, nobody is." I'm just reproducing the logic, here.
It feels like there's a distinction there, since "liar" is something we only really apply to humans in the first place. It wouldn't really do anything for me to say "aha, 'liar' is a useful term despite applying to all humans because dogs don't lie!" in the same way that the existence of dogs makes the word "human" necessary.
The point is that the structuralists were wrong, language doesn’t derive its meaning from a system of dichotomous “*x* or *not-x*” distinctions, and words which describe all members of any particular group or class retain their usefulness and are not, as Scott incorrectly contends, rendered meaningless.
It's not so much about identifying all members of any particular group or class as it is not having a use at all. Like with the "liar" example, if we had a definition of "liar" that included all humans we would never have a reason to use the word "liar." If let's say you want to call all white people racists there's no issue so long as there are in fact (non-white) people who you wouldn't call racists to contrast with. On the other hand if you want to call every human a racist then it does feel like we've lost the point of having that word. Could still have the word "racism" I suppose to refer to "that thing everyone does where they prefer their own race," but the noun "racist" would be like having a special word for "people who are effected by gravity."
> like having a special word for “people who are effected by gravity.” Like “massive”?
Dense
Hmm well "massive" is more of a synonym for "large" than a word meaning "has mass" but I see what you're trying for. But even a word for "has mass" would have some use since there are things that don't have mass to contrast it with. But there are no *people* who don't have mass so a particular word for "people with mass" would be pointless.
iirc there is some science that little toddlers have behaviors which we describe as racist. So yes everybody is racist in some point in their lives, but some people try to grow out of it, and we try to teach people out of it. Facts don't care about your feelings! Everybody is racist, now what are we going to do about it? In the same way, everybody has no idea of object permanence during some period in their lives but we grow out of it. Doesn't mean that saying 'wow this guy is 30 years old but has no idea of object permanence' isn't something useful, esp if there was a hidden group of people who don't [appear to have object permanence](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avkkdrjDsTA) (this is a joke obv, these people don't exist, but using it as an example). The context and intention matter). This is all a bit like arguing 'you shouldn't describe yourself as hungry, because you are not starving so you don't know what real hunger is' sillyness.
> iirc there is some science that little toddlers have behaviors which we describe as racist. So yes everybody is racist in some point in their lives, but some people try to grow out of it, and we try to teach people out of it. Facts don't care about your feelings! Everybody is racist, now what are we going to do about it? Isn't this the whole thing? Obviously if some people grow out of their racism then there exist racists and non-racists and there's no trouble with the word or how it's used at all. It's only if there's no such thing as not being racist that it's not a useful word, which I think we agree isn't the case.

[deleted]

A good writer I am not.
[deleted]
Well, it is a stupid cliche, so I'll try not to use it next time.
Next time go for a classic, like "It was a dark and stormy night."
It was a dark and stormy night; Scott's posts fell in torrents — except at occasional intervals, when they were checked by a violent gust of flatulence which swept up the comment section (for it is in SlateStarCodex that our scene lies), rattling along the neoreactionaries, and fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the human biodiversity advocates and incels that struggled against the social justice.
:chefkiss: