"You think that Nazis are so powerful and so obviously right that you simply cannot defeat their ideas, and have to suppress them from ever being heard" - quote from a well-adjusted "rationalist-adjacent" blogger who wrote an essay defending straight pride parades and Nazi recruiting tactics
(https://brazenautomaton.tumblr.com/post/187452451109/closet-keys-theres-a-reason-that-whenever)
posted on September 03, 2019 01:44 PM by
u/hysterical_abattoir
51
u/Soyweiser49 pointsat 1567519007.000000
But when you are so terrified of them, these people who cannot obtain
power unless it is given to them by you.
Ha, you can’t beat me up for being a degenerate unless I let you beat
me up for being a degenerate, is a weird stance.
I get what they are trying to say, but it comes from such a sheltered
place.
And it isn’t that people think the nazis are right, people think it
is easy to make people believe in propaganda. Anybody who honestly
believes in the marketplace of ideas has never tried to convince
somebody who is clearly wrong about something they are wrong.
The less you suppress Nazi ideas, the more obviously idiotic and
insane they are exposed as being. Nazi ideas are not just evil. Nazi
ideas are fucking stupid. They fucking implode the moment they contact
reality. That is why every time Nazis debate someone, they fucking LOSE,
and they lose HARD
And truly believing this is how you accidentally get into promoting
HBD stuff. (It can’t be a nazi idea, nazi ideas are obviously
wrong!)
The people who believe in the marketplace of ideas is a market failure of the marketplace of ideas. We obviously need to regulate idea-backed securities to minimize externalities.
> Something I always want to ask “marketplace of ideas” fanboys: if it truly was that easy to win debates with fascists/radicals, why didn’t it work in 1930s Spain, or Japan, or Germany, or Italy? Why didn’t it work in 1980s Belfast or 2000s Afghanistan? Why didn’t it work throughout the 20th/19th century South US?
"Maybe they were right" is the free-market-of-ideas answer here.
No you misunderstand. The marketplace of ideas won. German shitty engineering and will to power stuff vs either american mass production or simple russian modern tank design. (It took the nazis ages to implement simple sloping armor which iirc was a pre war invention). The second world war is in fact the best expression of the marketplace of ideas there was!
But if the marketplace of ideas won, how did the extremely rational and cool nazis lose? They did all the hard things while being hard and said all the things the sjws don't want you to hear. No, I think the problem is censorship by liberals.
They won because ::they;:, boycotted the imports of raw materials into germany which we all know is the government influencing the free market which is bad. God damn academics and hollywood!
No it isn't, that is the joke, normally the people who go on about 'the marketplace of ideas' explicitly assume that violence isn't allowed, of violence is allowed, then the whole concept is bullshit.
A step up from this 'marketplace of ideas, but with violence' would be 'marketplace of ideas, but with censorship', both kinda render the whole idea meaningless because no censorship and violence is assumed.
also why do market bubbles exist. it's crazy to me that the foundational theory we teach to all economists as The Truth is competely incapable of even acknowledging the existence of, let alone explaining, credit cycles. I guess the "market place of ideas" analogue would be fads?
They don't understand that the "market forces" in the marketplace of ideas optimize for simple and punchy over nuanced and thorough with no regard for the accuracy of the information being expressed, because (Peter Coffin voice) attention is the currency in the marketplace of ideas.
Turns out, even if you defeat their ideas, they’ll still use popular
platforms to spread those long-debunked ideas to people who are less
familiar with those ideas and the reasons why they are false.
Turns out that falsehood travels farther and faster in the
information age than any rigorous debunking.
Turns out there’s a reason that Nazi rhetoric is more likely to
succeed with the less-educated than with the educated which
isn’t some conspiracy about “Leftism” taking over higher
education.
i'm not going to go digging up links, because Tumblr search is as coded by whacking the keyboard with dildos as everything else about Tumblr, but it was in 2016 I think when Scott Adams was saying *of course* frustrated incels are entitled to kill everyone and brazenautomaton said *of course* frustrated incels are entitled to kill everyone, and this was a bit much even for the tumblr rationalists
I definitely believe you, I just hadn’t heard of this person and wouldn’t have posted if I knew how frenetic his history was. I still found the post to be a pretty nauseating read, though.
Guy has a full on breakdown whenever he's reminded of the existence of the dread SJWs. He has a massive persecution complex, and interprets every aspect of any online subculture that he doesn't like as part of some conspiracy against him. He's a real chore to read. I try to skip his posts when I'm reading through that section of tumblr, because he hits the same notes over and over again.
How is it that the original Nazis attained widespread support in
Germany if almost everyone who hears their ideas rejects them?
Also, if correct ideas necessarily win in the marketplace of ideas,
and the idea of censoring your enemies is popular, does that mean that
censoring your enemies is good?
The popularity and power of an idea does not equal its accuracy or
truth.
Nazi ideas stick around and spread because they prey on common human
cognitive weaknesses like fears of the Other and desires for simplistic
scapegoats for complex problems. Not accounting for the Irrationality of
people is the biggest shortcoming of rationalists.
Rationalists: People are deeply biased and irrational, especially on
matters that are emotionally-charged and relate to self-identity, like
politics
Also rationalists: The marketplace of ideas will fix Nazism because
humans are perfectly rational actors who could never be swayed by
propaganda and lies
Wasn't aware (now I feel sad for the guy). But he really should follow his own advice btw.
> Learn to read the post that was about how your behavior harms yourselves and empowers your enemies
Perhaps the person with the serious mental problems shoulnd't be touching the culture war constantly. (I saw fallout, so me, easily tricked nerd clicked the link and the first hit was some sort of stupid the confederate statues but in the fallout universe droll thing).
dude i've been chronically suicidal since my teens, i've got some washboard-ass looking arms and i was at the psychiatric a&e last week. i'm still not defending nazis online
it's actually condescending as fuck to imply that severely mentally ill people's opinions should be disregarded
There's like little point of ever debating him because in his mind the depression induced circular thought pattern he has always wins.
For him, everything is a game of social status. Nobody's good. Everything is ruined. The deepest level of bigotry is the popular kids bullying the awkward kids and everything else is built from that.
Ha, you can’t beat me up for being a degenerate unless I let you beat me up for being a degenerate, is a weird stance.
I get what they are trying to say, but it comes from such a sheltered place.
And it isn’t that people think the nazis are right, people think it is easy to make people believe in propaganda. Anybody who honestly believes in the marketplace of ideas has never tried to convince somebody who is clearly wrong about something they are wrong.
And truly believing this is how you accidentally get into promoting HBD stuff. (It can’t be a nazi idea, nazi ideas are obviously wrong!)
E: loser nerd is very mad you are protesting wrong, also you are all liars! (guess the marketplace of ideas applies only to fascists)
Turns out, even if you defeat their ideas, they’ll still use popular platforms to spread those long-debunked ideas to people who are less familiar with those ideas and the reasons why they are false.
Turns out that falsehood travels farther and faster in the information age than any rigorous debunking.
Turns out there’s a reason that Nazi rhetoric is more likely to succeed with the less-educated than with the educated which isn’t some conspiracy about “Leftism” taking over higher education.
i mean, brazenautomaton is probably cheating, he’s the rationalist who disgusts even the other rationalists
I know it was sarcastic but seeing brazenautomaton and “well-adjusted” in the same sentence just made me shiver for a moment
He’s right about one thing, censoring people gives them credibility.
And he’s a stupid knob, debating people also gives them credibility.
How is it that the original Nazis attained widespread support in Germany if almost everyone who hears their ideas rejects them?
Also, if correct ideas necessarily win in the marketplace of ideas, and the idea of censoring your enemies is popular, does that mean that censoring your enemies is good?
Ah, the Rationalist’s Fallacy: being right automatically means you win every argument.
(Not technically a fallacy, but I like the phrase)
The popularity and power of an idea does not equal its accuracy or truth.
Nazi ideas stick around and spread because they prey on common human cognitive weaknesses like fears of the Other and desires for simplistic scapegoats for complex problems. Not accounting for the Irrationality of people is the biggest shortcoming of rationalists.
Rationalists: People are deeply biased and irrational, especially on matters that are emotionally-charged and relate to self-identity, like politics
Also rationalists: The marketplace of ideas will fix Nazism because humans are perfectly rational actors who could never be swayed by propaganda and lies
Eh, I’d lay off BA dude has serious serious serious mental problems and pretty often expresses suicidal ideation