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Sometimes it feels like, against all odds, Yud somehow managed to write HPMOR without actually reading it. (https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/dsm7pm/sometimes_it_feels_like_against_all_odds_yud/)
107

The story is full of clear, demonstrated examples of everything wrong with the Rationalist community and the rationalist world view.

Harry spends the entire story refusing to accept that the dude nonchalantly saying evil, fascist and Darwinian things might actually be an evil fascist Darwinian, and nearly ends up bringing about the next rise of Lord Voldemort and getting everybody killed. An entire point of the story is how, by listening to what Professor Quirrel said and not instantly assuming good faith, Hermione was actually right. And I know this was the point, because there’s even a scene where Professor Quirrel/Voldemort laments how, when he first tried to trick Hermione, she took one look at him and the creepy disguise he was using and refused to cooperate. Her refusal to assume good faith protected her from a psychopath, at least for a little while.

One of the morals of the story as written is that assuming good faith in every situation is how ‘rational’ people get tricked into bad things, and yet Yud seems to see nothing wrong with the rational community making ‘assume good faith’ one of their founding principles, to the point where they’re willing to entertain even the most evil of ideas as long as the poster uses good grammar? Voldemort, in HPMOR, is a character almost entirely devoted to the idea that “evil people that express evil ideas in an eloquent and smart sounding way are still, at the end of the day, evil people”, and yet somehow Yud managed to write him without actually internalising the message he was literally putting on paper?

(You may have noticed at this point that I used to be a massive nerd).

And to go even deeper into the character of Hermione in HPMOR; at the end of the story, Harry Potter, after nearly getting Britain turned into a fascist dictatorship, admits that Hermione would make a much finer hero than he would, and gives her his invisibility cloak. The ultimate staunch ‘First Principles Only!’ rationalist bro realises that the purist implementation of his ideas doesn’t really lead to a good outcome for anyone, and accepts that the socially conscious, traditionally academic bookworm would do a better job than him. The story makes a big deal out of this point; it’s the climax of an entire narrative. And yet Yud sees nothing wrong with how the rational community sees anything socially conscious as ‘SJW garbage’ and is similarly aggressive towards traditional academia (instead favouring their own small community of thought leaders and bloggers)?

There’s even a brief line where Harry essentially calls Atlas Shrugged stupid, and another where he goes on about how he can’t go evil because of all the good his parents and society have done for him. One of the main villains in the story is Lord Malfoy, and how he uses his wealth, influence, and control of the media to do terrible things - an almost classic portrayal of the evil billionaire straight out of LateStageCapitalism. And yet so much of the rational community Yud leads seem to be hardcore, almost Darwinian capitalists?

I honestly don’t understand. HPMOR is itself an excellent critique of the rationalist philosophy, and not even Yud seems to have taken any of that in.

I honestly can’t blame anyone for not reading Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. Even the author.

I must admit I read these threads with some bemusement. There seem to be a lot of masochists around here. It's like Hegel: you're supposed to read *about* his work, not actually *read* it.
Give the recent Hegel episode of Rev Left Radio a listen, apparently people have been attributing some things to Hegel that he never said.
*Nice*

so soon, yet this deserves linking again: Cognitive Biases due to a Narcissistic Parent, Illustrated by HPMOR Quotations and especially its :chefkiss: comments

and of course the finest and most immortally scientific accurate critique of HPMOR: Harry Potter Becomes A Communist

> and of course the finest and most immortally scientific accurate critique of HPMOR: Harry Potter Becomes A Communist This is good. Some choice bits for anyone on the fence about reading it it: > "Imagine if your Aunt Petunia did marry Michael Verres," said Quirrell wistfully in a stupid bourgeois way. "You would have been very different when you arrived at Hogwarts. I imagine you would have been a charmingly self-righteous child prodigy who plays cruel pranks on your classmates by snapping your fingers, but it'd be okay because you'd be doing it with such a brilliant flair and that's what really matters. Also, you would only be friends with worthwhile people like Hermione Granger and Draco Malfoy, ignoring the people who have no reason to exist like Ron Weasley." > "I am not a racist," lied Quirrell in a liberal rationalist voice. "I know that brown people are not inferior because of their race. Instead, they're inferior because of their culture. Western culture is superior because of the fucking Enlightenment and brown people will be equal to us when they embrace it. That's why all atheist rationalists need to support Westernization, like Christopher Hitchens did when he supported the Iraq War." > "There are two kinds of people in this world, Mr. Potter," said Quirrell in a racist voice of colonialist imperialism. "There are the smart people who matter and the stupid people who shouldn't exist. The world rightfully belongs to the smart people who matter. It just so happens that most of these people who matter are white males, but that is in no way an indication of me being a white supremacist."
I was always a fan of [su3su2u1's review](https://danluu.com/su3su2u1/hpmor/) (archived from before rationalists harassed them off tumblr). It has a level of sneering I think the community here would appreciate.
that was a pretty cool read. Thanks!

Let’s also not forget the parts of HPMOR where Harry

  1. Debunked wizard biodiversity

  2. Explained to Hermione that the Wizard Nazis were the equivalent of racist white trash

  3. Killed all the top Wizard Nazis because he thought they were horrible people with horrible politics.

Exactly! I can't believe I forgot about that stuff! I feel like Yud should be the most self-aware rationalist there is, and yet he isn't and its honestly kind of baffling.
I'll admit I'm a fan of HPMOR, even after recognizing its flaws... but let's not give Harry too much credit. >Debunked wizard biodiversity EY, much later, in author comments, pointed out various flaws in Harry's reasoning, but Harry didn't care in story because his goal was to debunk Draco's ideas. Also, Harry used that to cement Draco's loyalty to his lesswrong cult, so kind of a mixed message overall. >Explained to Hermione that the Wizard Nazis were the equivalent of racist white trash I can recall him discussing that with Draco (framing it as Lucius's political views attracting trashy supporters), but I can also recall Harry being really enamored with Luciu's wealth and Snape's ability at deception, so again kind of a mixed message >Killed all the top Wizard Nazis because he thought they were horrible people with horrible politics. That was because they were threatening to kill him immediately in the moment. Given the opportunity, he might have spared Lucius for his money. So also a mixed message. Really, I think if HPMOR just made it clearer that Harry was meant to be flawed, I think all of these might work better, but because Harry comes off as a author mouthpiece and an intended ideal example of rationality the message is skewed.
HPMOR is not actually worse than many actually published fantasy doorstops, which says more about fantasy than HPMOR. Mostly what it needs is a vicious editor, willing to cut it to half the size. You could literally read chapters 1-30 then skip to chapter 100 and miss very little.
I enjoyed a lot of chapters that later turned out unnecessary to the overall plot... So I think HPMOR would be better as three separate stories: a borderline crackfic of Harry trying to science magic and overreacting to everything (think chapters 1-6 and comed tea), an Enders’ Game pastiche (the battle magic arc that went nowhere), and a serious everyone trying to outplot and manipulate each other (Azkaban arc, Trial Arc, Troll Arc, ending arc).
> 1) Debunked wizard biodiversity I call the meeting's attention to that time when Scott Alexander really really wanted Harry Potter fanfic - by which he meant of course HPMOR fanfic - where the Wizard Literally-Canonically-Nazis were *right*. This idea fascinated him. [[1]](https://reddragdiva.tumblr.com/post/136895124233/the-latest-idea-of-the-metapedia-team-is-to-make-a) [[2]](https://reddragdiva.tumblr.com/post/137121502678/harry-potter-and-the-truth-about-wizard) "of course i haven’t actually read any harry potter, but let me tell you all about jensen" SSC is an intellectual blog. it was quoted in the Atlantic, you know. and real-world intellectuals and public thinkers in the present day go on about scientific racism *all the time* and how they can inject it into their transformative works of children’s stories,
what the fuuuck, i half expected him to start talking about securing a future for Wizard children and fighting against the international Mugglery in that fervored monologue. he kinda got away from himself for a minute there lol
he's actually very left-liberal
got specific chapter locations/etc.? haven't read HPMOR (heard a looot about it of course), but don't want to slog through the whole thing just for those bits
I got you covered... >Debunked wizard biodiversity [http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/23](http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/23) It starts in chapter 22, but it reaches its peak in chapter 23 and has a few aftermath chapters after (HPMOR is super wordy and EY refuses to edit it down, literally challenging anyone to remove a single word to improve it). >Observation: > >Wizardry isn't as powerful now as it was when Hogwarts was founded. > >Hypotheses: > >Magic itself is fading. > >Wizards are interbreeding with Muggles and Squibs. > >Knowledge to cast powerful spells is being lost. > >Wizards are eating the wrong foods as children, or something else besides blood is making them grow up weaker. > >Muggle technology is interfering with magic. (Since 800 years ago?) > >Stronger wizards are having fewer children. (Draco = only child? Check if 3 powerful wizards, Quirrell / Dumbledore / Dark Lord, had any children.) > >Tests: > >A. Are there spells we know but can't cast (1 or 2) or are the lost spells no longer known (3)? Result: Inconclusive due to Interdict of Merlin. No known uncastable spell, but could simply have not been passed on. > >B. Did ancient first-year students cast the same sort of spells, with the same power, as now? (Weak evidence for 1 over 2, but blood could also be losing powerful wizardry only.) Result: Same level of first-year spells then as now. > >C. Additional test that distinguishes 1 and 2 using scientific knowledge of blood, will explain later. Result: There's only one place in the recipe that makes you a wizard, and either you have two papers saying 'magic' or you don't. > >D. Are magical creatures losing their powers? Distinguishes 1 from (2 or 3). Result: Magical creatures seem to be as strong as they ever were. > >"A failed," said Harry Potter. "B is weak evidence for 1 over 2. C falsifies 2. D falsifies 1. 4 was unlikely and B argues against 4 as well. 5 was unlikely and D argues against it. 6 is falsified along with 2. That leaves 3. Interdict of Merlin or not, I didn't actually find any known spell that couldn't be cast. So when you add it all up, it looks like knowledge is being lost." Note that the initial observation is untrue in canon Harry Potter, and even only partly true at most in HPMOR. Also, the result Harry comes up with is actually wrong according to EY in a later comment, and is likely to be wrong even just working off canon Wizard/Muggle marriages. Still, Harry does use it to break Draco's racist belief... but then he also uses it to cement Draco's ideological loyalty to his rationalist club, so kind of a mixed message. \> Explained to Hermione that the Wizard Nazis were the equivalent of racist white trash The clearest case of this is Harry actually explaining this to Draco (but framing it to Draco as Lucius mistakenly attracting the wrong sort of supporters) [http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/47](http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/47) >"Patterns," Harry said. His face was very serious now, and very grave. "Like a quarter of children born to Squib couples being wizards. A simple, unmistakable pattern you would recognize instantly, if you knew what you were looking at; even though, if you didn't know, you wouldn't even realize it was a clue. The poison in Slytherin House is something that's been seen before in the Muggle world. This is an *advance* prediction, Draco, I could have written it down for you before our first day of school, just from hearing you talk in King's Cross Station. Let me describe some really pathetic sorts of people that hang around at your father's political rallies, pureblood families that would never be invited to dinner at Malfoy Manor. Bearing in mind that *I've* never met them, I'm just predicting it from recognizing the pattern of what's happening to Slytherin House -" > >And Harry Potter proceeded to describe the Parkinsons and Montagues and Boles with a calmly cutting accuracy that Draco wouldn't have dared *think* to himself in case there was a Legilimens around, it was *beyond* insult, they would *kill* Harry if they ever heard... > >"To sum up," Harry finished, "they don't have any power themselves. They don't have any wealth themselves. If they didn't have Muggleborns to hate, if all the Muggleborns vanished the way they say they *want*, they'd wake up one morning and find they had *nothing.* But so long as they can say purebloods are superior, they can feel superior themselves, they can feel like part of the master class. Even though your father would never dream of inviting them to dinner, even though there's not one Galleon in their vaults, even if they did worse on their OWLs than the worst Muggleborn in Hogwarts. Even if they can't cast the Patronus Charm any more. Everything is the Muggleborns' fault to them, they have someone besides themselves to blame for their own failures, and that makes them even weaker. That's what Slytherin House is becoming, *pathetic,* and the root of the problem is hating Muggleborns." Post too long, continued in another comment.
Continued in this comment. I would leave out the quotes, but then people would have to read the actual chapter on [hpmor.com](https://hpmor.com), so I think quoting here is a better solution. > Killed all the top Wizard Nazis because he thought they were horrible people with horrible politics. Harry first considers this very early on, but its framed as one of his dark lordish kind of thoughts, so it isn't quite an endorsement. Ironically, the alt-right sympathizers that like HPMOR are generally in favor of the dark lord approach. [http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/7](http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/7) >*I wonder how difficult it would be to just make a list of all the top blood purists and kill them.* > >They'd tried exactly that during the French Revolution, more or less - make a list of all the enemies of Progress and remove everything above the neck - and it hadn't worked out well from what Harry recalled. Maybe he needed to dust off some of those history books his father had bought him, and see if what had gone wrong with the French Revolution was something easy to fix. Trigger warning for Draco joking about rape earlier in this chapter (prompting Harry to consider this thought). Also, Harry attributes the moral advancement of the muggle world to the enlightenment in a kind of Euro-centric borderline racist way. Harry carries out this mass slaughter at the end of the fanfic in order to avoid getting killed by the Death eaters. [http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/114](http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/114) >From a tiny spot on the end of Harry's wand, a cubic millimeter of anchor, stretched out a thin line of Transfigured spider-silk. It would have broken at once, if tested; it would have gone unremarked, if any had noticed its glint. Less than a tenth of a millimeter in cross-section, the tiny shape represented by the extended line of spider-silk was something Harry could Transfigure swiftly, ten centimeters of length to a cubic millimeter of total volume; and Harry could Transfigure a cubic millimeter in a fraction of a second. He was forcing the Transfiguration outward, extending it through the air as fast as he could without risking the transformation. > >The tracing line of spider-silk looped around a Death Eater's hood at neck level, returned to the pattern of threads. > >Voldemort's face was now impassive. *"You musst not leave here alive. Ssenssible people called good would alsso agree, thiss I tell you in ssnake'ss sspeech. But all your friendss I will treat kindly and protect under my reign, if you agree to die now ass good persson sshould."* > >The last Death Eater was looped. The pattern of spider-silk was complete. The web had been drawn with loops around all the Death Eater's necks. The ends of those loops had been anchored to a central circle; and that central circle in turn had three threads stretching across its center. The entire pattern still touching the anchor-line stretching out of Harry's wand. > >Over the next seconds, those near-invisible threads of reflected moonlight turned black. > >Filaments narrower, stronger, and sharper than steel wire; braided carbon nanotubes, each individual tube all a single molecule. > >Harry hissed, "*Want you to alsso promisse to treat nationss kindly under your rule. Will not accept lesss."* > >Voldemort hovered still in the air, snake-face showing a dawning fury. > >The last two threads stretched out from the dark pattern, black theads already in the form of nanotubes. They moved lightly through the air toward the Dark Lord himself, toward the sleeve just above Voldemort's left hand that held the gun, toward the sleeve above the right hand that held the yew wand, threads placed high at first to give them time to drift slowly downward through the air. The threads looped around, went over themselves, tied slippable knots. Began to tighten, coming closer to the sleeve, as Harry Transfigured them shorter - > >Harry felt the tickle of Voldmort's power beginning to touch his own in the back of his mind; at the same time the Dark Lord's eyes widened, his mouth opened. > >And Harry Transfigured the black threads stretching across the black pattern's center to a quarter their previous size, shrinking the circle, yanking hard on everything attached, tightening loops. > >*(Black robes, falling.)* It wasn't a deliberate attempt to kill fascists so much as a desperate attempt for survival. But I will give Harry credit for not regretting it even when faced with Draco... [http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/120](http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/120) > "I'm the one who killed your father and all the other Death Eaters last night. They'd been told to open fire on me the moment I did anything, so I had to kill them in order to have a chance at dealing with Voldemort, who was a danger to the entire world." Harry Potter's voice was strained. "I didn't think about you and Theodore and Vincent and Gregory, but if I had, I'd have done it anyway. My mind managed not to realise until afterwards that Mr. White was Lucius, but if I'd realised, I still wouldn't have risked leaving him alive, in case he knew wandless magic. The thought occurred to me long before that it would be pretty convenient, in terms of the political landscape, for all the Death Eaters to suddenly die. I always thought that the Death Eaters were horrible people, much more strongly than I ever let on to you, since the first day we met. But if your father hadn't been there, and I'd had a button that could kill him remotely, I wouldn't have pressed the button just for political reasons. The way I feel about what I've done, and whether there's remorse... well, there's a part of me that's screaming in generic horror about having killed anyone. And another part that says that from a moral standpoint, the Death Eaters signed away their lives on the day they signed up with Voldemort. They pointed their wands at me first, blah blah and so on. But right now I just feel sick about what I've done to you. Again. I feel like," Harry Potter's voice wobbled a bit, "everything I do only hurts you, for all my *good intentions,* that you've only ever lost things from being around me, so if you tell me to stay away entirely from Draco Malfoy after this, then I will. And if you want me to try to be your friend for real this time, without ever trying to manipulate you again, without ever using you again or risking hurting you again, then I will, I swear I will."
Here's one of the things I mentioned, in chapter 47, "Personhood Theory". It's #2 but to Draco, not Hermione. >"The poison in Slytherin House is something that's been seen before in the Muggle world. This is an advance prediction, Draco, I could have written it down for you before our first day of school, just from hearing you talk in King's Cross Station. Let me describe some really pathetic sorts of people that hang around at your father's political rallies, pureblood families that would never be invited to dinner at Malfoy Manor. Bearing in mind that I've never met them, I'm just predicting it from recognizing the pattern of what's happening to Slytherin House -" >And Harry Potter proceeded to describe the Parkinsons and Montagues and Boles with a calmly cutting accuracy that Draco wouldn't have dared think to himself in case there was a Legilimens around, it was beyond insult, they would kill Harry if they ever heard... >"To sum up," Harry finished, "they don't have any power themselves. They don't have any wealth themselves. If they didn't have Muggleborns to hate, if all the Muggleborns vanished the way they say they want, they'd wake up one morning and find they had nothing. But so long as they can say purebloods are superior, they can feel superior themselves, they can feel like part of the master class. Even though your father would never dream of inviting them to dinner, even though there's not one Galleon in their vaults, even if they did worse on their OWLs than the worst Muggleborn in Hogwarts. Even if they can't cast the Patronus Charm any more. Everything is the Muggleborns' fault to them, they have someone besides themselves to blame for their own failures, and that makes them even weaker. That's what Slytherin House is becoming, pathetic, and the root of the problem is hating Muggleborns." He then goes on to directly compare it to racism among muggles a few paragraphs later. >Listen, Draco, three hundred years ago you could find great scientists, as great as Salazar in their own way, who would have told you that some other Muggles were inferior because of their skin color -" >"Skin color? " said Draco. >"I know, skin color instead of anything important like blood purity, isn't it ridiculous? But then something in the world changed, and now you can't find any great scientists who still think skin color should matter, only loser people like the ones I described to you. Salazar Slytherin made the mistake when everyone else was making it, because he grew up believing it, not because he was desperate for someone to hate."
I'd have to find chapters, but what comes mind for 1 and 2 are the parts where Harry is convincing Draco that Slytherin is being poisoned by blood purist ideology, and that it's false. In one part he paints an accurate picture of the sort of people who cling to the Malfoys because a "pure" bloodline is literally the only thing that seems good about them, and another section he guides Draco through investigating and eliminating the possible causes of an apparent decrease in magical power over the ages, incidentally (and this was Harry's actual goal:) proving to Draco in the process that pure bloodlines aren't magically stronger.

I brought this up on a recent /r/rational thread (I like “rational” fanfiction even if I also like sneering at the cringey bits of philosophy).

While you are on that topic, have you considered how the original audience’s infatuation with Voldemort even as he committed increasingly heinous acts (I can recall people still defending Quirrelmort even after he AK’d the centaur) kind of mirrors the draw of the alt-right movement?

And his response

YES. YES I HAVE. (screams externally)

So I guess he doesn’t like his role in the alt-right pipeline…? But he hasn’t debunked it more thoroughly? (I can find posts were he attacks conservative policies from weird directions with his wordy way of writing that makes his message opaque…)

I would argue that the although warning signs were there at the very beginning (neoreactionaries being drawn to lesswrong, and of course all the people that liked Quirrelmort even as he showed himself to be eviler and eviler), it wasn’t until slatestarcodex got popular that the alt-right radicalization pipeline really got flowing. So it’s not so much that EY hasn’t read HPMOR as his ideal demographic missed the point.

> So I guess he doesn't like his role in the alt-right pipeline...? They weren't supposed to become nazis. They were supposed to become the resistance against skynet.
...and the best way to do that is giving him money.
> So I guess he doesn't like his role in the alt-right pipeline...? he has explicitly repudiated neoreaction, and this pissed off a lot of them who then left LW (of course more came in, and they're still firmly in the Bay Area transhumanist subculture, so)
Yeah, I never thought of Yud as part of the reactionary pipeline like Scott Alexander regrettably might be through the culture war stuff. I can understand seeing him as a self-imbued, well-meaning grifter but I've never seen him have a really reprehensible political take (apart from not being a socialist, obviously); as far as that stuff goes he's generally been decent as far as I know. Have I missed something ? Is the LW community nearly as bad as the motte ?
the Bay Area subculture believes all that shit, but (somewhat) knows better than to say the quiet part loud, and is a bit less trans-hostile
>but I've never seen him have a really reprehensible political take (apart from not being a socialist, obviously) ...because he actually understands the economic calculation problem? How dare he.
>...BecaUSe hE ACTUalLY uNDeRsTandS tHe eCOnomic CaLCulaTioN PRobLem? > >hOW DaRe He.
oof, was there a post that particularly pissed them off?
the press came around in 2013 talking about neoreactionaries and how they found a home on LessWrong Yudkowsky responded in the comments to one such article condemning them as goddamn fools (based on Scott's anti-neoreactionary FAQ) Anissimov was deeply hurt Yudkowsky later posted to his Tumblr, after Sandifer's book draft started doing the rounds, further explicitly repudiating them

The real issue with HPMOR is that people read it instead of spending time bringing me into existence.

“Death of the author” isn’t just a literary concept, it’s a necessary psychological coping mechanism so you don’t drive yourself insane when you encounter a combo like HPMOR and Yud.

To be fair, it was probably much easier to write than to read.

Rationalists don’t assume good faith for evil AI superintelligences or Lord Voldemort, they assume good faith for random Reddit comments. The idea that a big computer could rewrite your entire mind in a couple of sentences is a pretty common theme, actually. Just replace the big computer with a well-prepared neo-nazi and you get the fear behind deplatforming. This is actually something that rationalists agree about with normals in principle, they just disagree about how vast the tricky mind would have to be.

The failure to see the danger in their actual live (well-prepared neo nazis) while supporting fiction that talk about the danger in fictional characters (Voldemort, evil AI), is one of the exact points I'm trying to make. I'd argue that their belief that human minds aren't powerful enough to be a threat is a critical blind spot in their belief system. Especially since swathes of HPMOR are dedicated towards manipulating other people, and actively trying to prevent yourself being manipulated in turn.