Maybe I’ll get downvoted, but I don’t really have a problem with what
this person is saying.
As it currently stands, in our capitalist world, I think it is more
likely that space colonisation will be led by private interests. The
poster is not saying this is a good thing - I guess they just want to
see the consequences of this played out in a fictional story?
Such a story could even be a good criticism of capitalism.
I also became suspicious when I noticed that they were a particular kind of history nerd, but yeah, maybe they deserve a bit more charitability than I'm giving them here. Sometimes history nerds are actually just history nerds.
I could go either way on this. I don't know enough about the physics, engineering or economics. From my limited knowledge it seems feasible that mining operations could lead to outposts, which could lead to colonies.
The economics aren’t there. Costs are coming down, but putting stuff into space is still *really* expensive. That expense is going to wipe out the profit for anything but the rarest of resources. The fundamental issue here will be the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation, which basically states that the cost of going further or faster (same thing in space) rises exponentially, as the extra fuel needed requires further fuel still to move the extra fuel.
The cheapest I could find was ~$5k per kg to low earth orbit. Obviously the cost of getting to another planet will be exponentially higher, plus the cost of landing on that planet. Then you have to pay all of those costs *twice* to bring them back. Of course you don’t just need to move the mined resource, you’ll need to ship a lot of equipment, personnel, and survival equipment to the mining site in order to to actually do any work.
There are resources that are expensive enough to justify that. Gold is probably in that range. The issue is that these resources are expensive based on their rarity and have otherwise inelastic demand; a gold mine in space would collapse the price of gold to exactly the launch cost of the mining operation, which would eliminate most profits available.
There’s an interesting argument to be made about this, but I doubt any company has the resources to do this.
Half a century after the first space stations were put up, we still don’t have a private space station. We don’t even have that many space stations put up by nation states, with the best and longest lived space station being an international effort.
I think we’ve got a ways to go before interplanetary space travel gets cheap enough for a private company to setup outposts. For now probably only nation states, big ones at that, can afford it.
Hmm I actually think I might have something valueable to add to this.
I will have to do a dig through my list of science fiction books and
list a few of the books which have corps back space exploration, which
often turns the books pretty anti corporation. Feel free to point and
sneer at me.
E: and I did. Turns out i was thinking about the aptly named ‘the
corporation wars’ series. (I dont think i have ever read a sf book where
they think ‘corps leading the way on space exploration is a good
idea’)
E2: fyi warning ‘rational fiction’ doesnt mean what we sneerclubbers
think it means iirc. Read the about page
It isnt a sub about lesswrong rationalism (but it is part of the less
wrong rationalism sales funnel (using the marketing term over the more
often used pipeline thing because the sales funnel only converts a small
number into sales, but a pipe transports all)
Corporation Wars is what I thought of too, it's OK reading if not MacLeod's best.
Hamilton's "Fallen Dragon" has this as a plot point too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_Dragon
EDIT I misremembered the title, fixed!
I mean it's not a central part - the protagonist works for the company that financed the colony and periodically it sends in private armies as "debt collectors" to collect "assets".
Also worth checking out is Ian McDonald's "Luna" series about a libertarian Moon - sort of a dialog to Heinlein.
http://gerikson.com/blog/books/read/Twice-on-a-Harsh-Moon.html
this guy probably wants to suck Cecil Rhodes^((noted imperialist,
founder of white supremacy, and inventor of blood diamonds))’ dick
Musky Elon Daddy is gonna take us to mars!! Once we’re there, in
exchange for 100 hrs a week of hard labor, he’ll let us into the daily
drawings to be permitted to physically lick his boots! Very
rational!
Last time r/rational came up we also did some sneers about it and I remember I massively put my own foot in my mouth by having the wrong idea of what 'rational' means in the context of that sub (again, my apologies). So I suggest caution. Null-a is touted as an example of rational fiction in the sub for example, and iirc that fiction deals with mind powers.
So, any r/rational readers who also read sneerclub can prob explain this.
Anyway Rationalist fiction is a subset of rational fiction according to their sidebar.
The problem here is that as definitions of rational fiction move away from 'rationalist fiction', the stories begin to look more and more like Fair Play Whodunnits/Hard Sci-Fi stories. A lot of things about that part of the internet smack of "Not Invented Here" syndrome, and this is one of them; it is very hard to define 'rational fiction' in a way that is actually new or novel. This is why there are so, so many rational stories that predate the term.
At best it can be argued that rational fiction moves classic Fair Play conventions out of the murder mystery genre. At worst (and this isn't even my opinion, but it is one I've seen) it can be argued that 'rational fiction' is just a case of STEM-lords trying to take credit for the re-invention of a pre-existing literary genre. The Intellectual Dark Web (and the parts of the rational movement that intersect with it) has given the Internet a bit of a hair trigger fuse when it comes to rationalists renaming pre-existing concepts.
To give an example, Rian Johnson has almost certainly never heard of HPMOR, or LessWrong, or the rationalist movement at all. He based Knives Out on old murder mystery stories. And yet Knives Out is a piece of rational fiction, complete with a leading detective that gives monologues about the beauty of logic and careful thinking.
But yeah, to be honest that sub really is the absolute best part of the wider 'rational' sphere, bar none. There's no question about it - if there's one part of the 'rational' world that actually does deserve a large dollop of charity whenever it pops up on SneerClub, its r/rational.
How do you think humanity would act in such a scenario? The plot is entirely rational given the milieu of corporate woke appropriation and past/current conflicts with indigenous populations over resource extraction.
I don't think this is what people looking for "rational fic" mean by rational, though? I thought rational fic was more like a specific genre where the protagonist solves all their problems by thinking really hard and breaking the universe or whatever, like HPMOR. Maybe I'm wrong, and their definition of rational is something more like "having a plot that makes sense" or "reflecting issues in the real world," in which case you are right.
E: ahh see [they aren't using the LW definition of rational](https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/llni6d/corporate_colonies_good/gnqujr2)! Dang, foiled again by the vagaries of English words. I admit defeat
Maybe I’ll get downvoted, but I don’t really have a problem with what this person is saying.
As it currently stands, in our capitalist world, I think it is more likely that space colonisation will be led by private interests. The poster is not saying this is a good thing - I guess they just want to see the consequences of this played out in a fictional story?
Such a story could even be a good criticism of capitalism.
Hmm I actually think I might have something valueable to add to this. I will have to do a dig through my list of science fiction books and list a few of the books which have corps back space exploration, which often turns the books pretty anti corporation. Feel free to point and sneer at me.
E: and I did. Turns out i was thinking about the aptly named ‘the corporation wars’ series. (I dont think i have ever read a sf book where they think ‘corps leading the way on space exploration is a good idea’)
E2: fyi warning ‘rational fiction’ doesnt mean what we sneerclubbers think it means iirc. Read the about page
It isnt a sub about lesswrong rationalism (but it is part of the less wrong rationalism sales funnel (using the marketing term over the more often used pipeline thing because the sales funnel only converts a small number into sales, but a pipe transports all)
Wow, what a thorough survey of sci-fi works dealing with corporate colonialism
every line in this is art …
this guy probably wants to suck Cecil Rhodes^((noted imperialist, founder of white supremacy, and inventor of blood diamonds))’ dick
Musky Elon Daddy is gonna take us to mars!! Once we’re there, in exchange for 100 hrs a week of hard labor, he’ll let us into the daily drawings to be permitted to physically lick his boots! Very rational!
The rationality of the last one is questionable 😰
No thanks I already played Red Faction
this guy should read “red mars”
It’s consistent with Leninism
They just described The Expanse no?
Though it’s more “public-private partnership” colonization than fully corporate
“The rationality of the last one is questionable”
Did this motherfucker just try to rank the rationality of Star Wars?