posted on February 22, 2021 06:30 PM by
u/foobanana
55
u/titotal64 pointsat 1614022658.000000
As a dude with anxiety around dating, I should feel sympathetic to
him here. But it’s kind of obvious that the thought has not occurred to
him that women are people with different beliefs and preferences?
He demands that he be supplied with the one rigid rule to ensure that
he can hit on women without being seen as creepy. But theres 3 and a
half billion women out there, obviously there are going to be different
lines. He’s asking all of womankind to answer for the (alleged)
unreasonableness of one ex-friend, maybe that one friend just sucks? (or
more likely, he was way creepier about it than he lets on)
edit: lol I just saw the bit boosts this weird theory of women having
“friend ladders” and “relationship ladders”, which is just an insanely
weird way of framing the fact that sometimes a woman is not romantically
interested in you.
yeah that ladder thing implies women are alone in having any standards for attractiveness, all women will only date attractive guys and all men will date any woman they're good friends with.
so that was a fucking lie
Well if you ever had doubts whether he was or wasn't way creepier, the extensive bit about boobs, and the rest of the story makes it clear that he probably was, in fact, way creepier.
well put. it feels like he just wanted to rant to help sorting out how he feels and it seems he went thru a tough one, regarding his specific circumstences ... but couldn't get himself to do just that, had to come up with a logic grid to order dating in general. idk. didnt occurred to him his grid would get erroded real fast when applied to the multitude of realities out there ; running it real quick in a mental simulation would have demonstrated there was a multitude of variables he left out, unadressed , in evaluating one's ever changing desirability its more like a flux than a stable variable . as soon as he woud have started to flesh out a realistic female character with her own personality, back story, interests, hopes etc like a dating sim it would have crashed real quick unexpected error style missing dll's.
Yes, this line
> An obvious solution is to agree on a set of standards to use when asking someone out.
immediately put me in mind of [this comic](https://xkcd.com/592/).
The optimal way to ask people out on dates (or to have any kind of relationship with another person) is, unfortunately, not a solved problem, and it likely never will be.
> To make it worse: this was a few months after the "Elevatorgate"
Oh god, the context. They complain about being taken out of context, but the context is undoubtedly theirs writing a post in response to elevatorgate.
I think they are referring to an incident at a skeptic conference where a woman who was well respected in skeptic circles was leaving to go back to her hotel room after a meet'n'greet at the hotel bar. A dude was in the elevator with her and it was just them and I think he asked her to his room or somehow put the moves on her when it was just the two of them alone in the elevator.
After the convention, she posted a blog entry saying "Don't do that. Don't put the moves on a woman when she's trapped all alone in a confined space like that esp. if she doesn't know you well whether you'll take rejection well or what you'll do. Maybe approach sometime other than late at night in an elevator" And she didn't even (in my opinion) say it mean or anything. Just "Hey don't do that" "This is the kind of thing that causes fewer women to come to these conferences because it happens rather frequently"
Whereupon most of the skeptic community, including some of the biggest names, got very mad and raked her through the coals. One of them compared her complaint with women in countries where women had to wear burkas and couldn't drive etc. as if women in the USA should never complain about anything a man in the USA did...
> One of them compared her complaint with women in countries where women had to wear burkas and couldn't drive etc. as if women in the USA should never complain about anything a man in the USA did...
not just One of Them, literally Richard Dawkins
Yeah she got completely piled on by most of the community. I read her original "hey don't do that" post and it wasn't mean at all. It just said when a woman is in an elevator late at night all alone with a dude she doesn't know, that is not the time to make the ask, because she doesn't have anywhere to get away and doesn't know what you'll do.
yeah i was actually an edgy atheist when it happened and i osmosed this event from people like theamazingatheist (🤮), blew my mind when many years later i actually watched her vid and was like "whoa that's it? *that's* what everyone was losing their gd minds over?!"
Thing is, it's really hard to explain to someone who is the dominant majority in any space. It's literal fear of safety; it's not an exaggeration.
When I go to a new place there tends to be a non-zero chance that I'll get aggression due to my skin colour; ranges from people shouting at me to get the f*ck back to whatever country they think I'm from, to pointing and staring. When I was young I was pissed on by a group of racists; and heard a racial slur maybe once every couple of weeks.
Thing is, that it means when a stranger talks to me at all, it makes me wary; are they going to have a go at me? Am I in bodily danger? If I run is anyone going to help? Will the police/authorities turn a blind eye?
It's tiring. Like /really/ tiring. And perhaps you'll understand if I'm not overly charitable towards you if you start going on about my ethnic race in front of me or any form of race science, however well-meaning you think you are.
And if you let those people into your spaces; don't blame me if I leave your community because these debates sound about as good faith as a Neo-Nazi asking whether Hitler had a good reason to kill the Jews to a slavery apologist wondering whether there was an underlying reason why Africans were the vast majority of the Atlantic slave trade.
You gotta love how even the most oblique reference to that community even being slightly awkward towards women or ethnic minorities results in a full throated "actually, we're bigoted as all hell" response.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Elevatorgate
TL;DR A stranger invites Rebecca Watson, an atheist/skeptic blogger, to his room at 4am during an atheist conference, while alone with her in an elevator.
She posts a video explaining how that's not OK. Atheist community has a meltdown. The peak is Richard Dawkins trying to disregard the situation talking about how Muslim girls suffer much more than her (?)
> She posts a video explaining how that's not OK.
not even! she posts a 10ish minute video about *something else entirely*, and in that video has a quick aside where she tells men that if they wanna date a girl, that's prolly not a very effective way of getting there. this quick aside caused an enormous sectarian split in internet atheism as dudes collectively lose their fuckin wigs
> The peak is Richard Dawkins trying to disregard the situation talking about how Muslim girls suffer much more than her (?)
LOL implying he even views Muslim girls as human beings.
This is way too long to read the whole thing, but I didn’t see him
mention the easiest solution - be honest about your intentions. “Hey, I
think you’re neat and I’d like to get to know you better, maybe see if
we could be a thing” is a fine thing to say early on, so you aren’t
giving off falsely chaste vibes while building a front of friendship on
top of repressed horniness.
Open about your intentions doesn’t have to mean asking “can I touch
your boobs” out of nowhere. Also “can I touch your boobs” while you’re
already touching each other is way less creepy than he assumes it to
be.
What stood out to me most was that he was spending all his energy attempting to manipulate the other person's perception of him rather than expressing himself honestly. Yeah dude, you're gonna get frustrated when there aren't simple rules that guarantee outcomes from other people's behavior.
So, if you are a ‘Nice Guy (TM)’ the problem isn’t that you ask women
to go out, but that there is a loaded subtext that makes it difficult to
say no, regardless of how POLITE you asked.
In many ways this is just an iteration of the ‘if you’re polite then
it’s OK’ rule that SA has near him. It’s like sealioning. It’s like
giving facists kid gloves as long as they’re polite. It’s being a sexual
predator and expecting a date because you’re polite, even though there’s
the subtext of “I will make your life socially difficult if you say
no.”
This is why I keep stressing that creepiness comes from male
weakness rather than male privilege.
Italics in the original.
This guy is horrific. The whole essay is a long, tedious rant about
how mean women are to men who just want to fuck them while skewing it
towards an innocent, juvenile “oh I hope Crystal likes me!” scenario
while knowing he’s talking to other adult men who see women as prey at
best.
They can’t help groping or shoving their tongue into someone’s mouth,
why do those mean girls have to complain so much about stuff that guys
just do as elemental forces of invasive hunger? Why do they complain
when guys attack them and get away with it constantly at every level of
society?
Almost everything is slanted to favour guys already. Siskind knows it
and just resents that the ‘almost’ is in that sentence.
Not only does he clearly think of romance and cuddling as part of genuinely liking someone, he is asexual. You are reading something that is not there.
His problem isn't looking at women as prey--it's looking at them as aliens. His post is definitely worthy of criticism, but you seem to be responding to something else entirely.
I don't think that's what's going on. Especially since learning this was shortly after the 'Skepchick-propositioned-by-a-rando-late-at-night-in-an-elevator-alone' incident.
The whole slew is boilerplate dude gripes about women not being vulnerable enough dressed up in phony romantic images, with that eternal "women, who can understand them?" slant. The whole deal is designed to justify the feelings of men who already resent women and fixes on how aggrieving it is to not get what you want (from another person).
I have known some women to make mean mockery of guys to their friends when the guy didn't do anything wrong or creepy besides ask them out or take them out. But these guys need to have thicker skin and not take it to heart if a mean or thoughtless woman scorns them unfairly. Lord knows I've gotten unfair scorn from dudes I wasn't chasing!
oh geez, when interacting with men i'm also terrified of becoming a federal case, as a rape or murder victim. these dudes can cry me a fucking river lol
(Also, how is it this hard? Straight women, I am given to understand,
exist. Surely they have ways of making themselves known that don’t rely
on awkward conversations about boob honkability.)
“If we keep doing this, just so you know I WILL get turned on…which
does not mean anything has to happen at ALL. But getting to spend time
with a beautiful/cool/interesting and accomplished woman like you, well
any guy would be turned on. But going further against your will is the
last thing I ever want to do, so say the word and we can go back to just
cuddling no harm no foul. Or we can watch (name of show) or go out and
grab some (name of food) I’m a big boy and can take my licks, but it’s
worth taking a chance, and I’m not about letting a chance with a woman
like you go by. But just so you know, and this is a promise– I like and
respect you either way.”
“Hey not sure I’m reading signals right here…but that’s cool, I’m a
big boy and can take a risk or a ‘no.’ Just saying if I do anything you
don’t want, slap me”
“You have a beautiful body and I would LOVE to share it…but even more
than that, I like and respect you as a person regardless. So if it’s a
‘no’ I’m cool with that and nothing changes either way on how I feel
about you. First and foremost you’re a friend I respect. My feelings are
strong but I’m a big boy and you don’t owe me anything. But I’d be
kicking myself the rest of my life if I didn’t take a chance. Ball’s in
your court and if you’re not on the same page, that’s totally cool I
would love to just chill” blah blah…maybe men would shorten that and
pick out one or two phrases…
“Just so you know, I like and respect you for a person no matter
what. But my body has a mind of its own and any guy would be crazy not
to take a chance on taking what we have to the next level. But I give
you my word, if you say no it’s no, and nothing about our friendship
changes.”
“Would you slap me if I was getting a little turned on?” “Honest I’d
still be turned on even if you DID slap me but I’d slam on the brakes
and still respect you either way, Scout’s honor”
“Just to let you know, I’m into you and I’m also turned on. But I
don’t wanna do anything you don’t want to. So just say the word and I’ll
be a complete Boy Scout…won’t be easy but I respect you and our
friendship way too much to cause any harm.”
“Look I’m no Boy Scout. I love to cuddle and I love to cuddle with
you. But I also like to fool around…ESPECIALLY if it were with you. I’m
not about putting pressure on someone, so the ball’s in your court on
how far we go right now. I would LOVE to share your body in addition to
the sweet/understanding/caring connection we share. (or leave that part
out and stop at ‘body’) but I give you my word, we don’t have to do
anything you don’t want to and it won’t affect how I feel about you
either way.”
“Officer is this right here a no-parking zone? Will I get a ticket
and towed or just a warning?” (Borrowing a scene from Double Indemnity
movie)
As a dude with anxiety around dating, I should feel sympathetic to him here. But it’s kind of obvious that the thought has not occurred to him that women are people with different beliefs and preferences?
He demands that he be supplied with the one rigid rule to ensure that he can hit on women without being seen as creepy. But theres 3 and a half billion women out there, obviously there are going to be different lines. He’s asking all of womankind to answer for the (alleged) unreasonableness of one ex-friend, maybe that one friend just sucks? (or more likely, he was way creepier about it than he lets on)
edit: lol I just saw the bit boosts this weird theory of women having “friend ladders” and “relationship ladders”, which is just an insanely weird way of framing the fact that sometimes a woman is not romantically interested in you.
Wow, this is painful to read, and I say this as super socially awkward person.
And he went to became a psychiatrist. (Or he already was at the time? Even more terrifying.)
To make it worse: this was a few months after the “Elevatorgate”
Gotta love the comment demolishing him:
This is way too long to read the whole thing, but I didn’t see him mention the easiest solution - be honest about your intentions. “Hey, I think you’re neat and I’d like to get to know you better, maybe see if we could be a thing” is a fine thing to say early on, so you aren’t giving off falsely chaste vibes while building a front of friendship on top of repressed horniness.
Open about your intentions doesn’t have to mean asking “can I touch your boobs” out of nowhere. Also “can I touch your boobs” while you’re already touching each other is way less creepy than he assumes it to be.
There comes a day in every young nerd’s life where he must learn to read the fucking room.
So, if you are a ‘Nice Guy (TM)’ the problem isn’t that you ask women to go out, but that there is a loaded subtext that makes it difficult to say no, regardless of how POLITE you asked.
In many ways this is just an iteration of the ‘if you’re polite then it’s OK’ rule that SA has near him. It’s like sealioning. It’s like giving facists kid gloves as long as they’re polite. It’s being a sexual predator and expecting a date because you’re polite, even though there’s the subtext of “I will make your life socially difficult if you say no.”
Italics in the original.
This guy is horrific. The whole essay is a long, tedious rant about how mean women are to men who just want to fuck them while skewing it towards an innocent, juvenile “oh I hope Crystal likes me!” scenario while knowing he’s talking to other adult men who see women as prey at best.
They can’t help groping or shoving their tongue into someone’s mouth, why do those mean girls have to complain so much about stuff that guys just do as elemental forces of invasive hunger? Why do they complain when guys attack them and get away with it constantly at every level of society?
Almost everything is slanted to favour guys already. Siskind knows it and just resents that the ‘almost’ is in that sentence.
[deleted]
https://web.archive.org/web/20121007160535/http://squid314.livejournal.com/328267.html
…
(Also, how is it this hard? Straight women, I am given to understand, exist. Surely they have ways of making themselves known that don’t rely on awkward conversations about boob honkability.)
“If we keep doing this, just so you know I WILL get turned on…which does not mean anything has to happen at ALL. But getting to spend time with a beautiful/cool/interesting and accomplished woman like you, well any guy would be turned on. But going further against your will is the last thing I ever want to do, so say the word and we can go back to just cuddling no harm no foul. Or we can watch (name of show) or go out and grab some (name of food) I’m a big boy and can take my licks, but it’s worth taking a chance, and I’m not about letting a chance with a woman like you go by. But just so you know, and this is a promise– I like and respect you either way.”
“Hey not sure I’m reading signals right here…but that’s cool, I’m a big boy and can take a risk or a ‘no.’ Just saying if I do anything you don’t want, slap me”
“You have a beautiful body and I would LOVE to share it…but even more than that, I like and respect you as a person regardless. So if it’s a ‘no’ I’m cool with that and nothing changes either way on how I feel about you. First and foremost you’re a friend I respect. My feelings are strong but I’m a big boy and you don’t owe me anything. But I’d be kicking myself the rest of my life if I didn’t take a chance. Ball’s in your court and if you’re not on the same page, that’s totally cool I would love to just chill” blah blah…maybe men would shorten that and pick out one or two phrases…
“Just so you know, I like and respect you for a person no matter what. But my body has a mind of its own and any guy would be crazy not to take a chance on taking what we have to the next level. But I give you my word, if you say no it’s no, and nothing about our friendship changes.”
“Would you slap me if I was getting a little turned on?” “Honest I’d still be turned on even if you DID slap me but I’d slam on the brakes and still respect you either way, Scout’s honor”
“Just to let you know, I’m into you and I’m also turned on. But I don’t wanna do anything you don’t want to. So just say the word and I’ll be a complete Boy Scout…won’t be easy but I respect you and our friendship way too much to cause any harm.”
“Look I’m no Boy Scout. I love to cuddle and I love to cuddle with you. But I also like to fool around…ESPECIALLY if it were with you. I’m not about putting pressure on someone, so the ball’s in your court on how far we go right now. I would LOVE to share your body in addition to the sweet/understanding/caring connection we share. (or leave that part out and stop at ‘body’) but I give you my word, we don’t have to do anything you don’t want to and it won’t affect how I feel about you either way.”
“Officer is this right here a no-parking zone? Will I get a ticket and towed or just a warning?” (Borrowing a scene from Double Indemnity movie)