posted on February 27, 2021 09:34 PM by
u/ReactionaryRoaster
68
u/ReactionaryRoaster52 pointsat 1614462110.000000
Additional awfulness in that post: apologetics for the whipping and
rape of enslaved people appealing to 19th century standards for what was
considered rape, calling American slavery “small fries,” writing off
abolitionists as biased accounts.
Then for the cherry on top of the hate sundae: Reddit’s Anti-Evil
Operations removed the post then r/TheMotte’s mod team added it
back.
Edit: turns out cantbeproductive is also yet another a
holocaust denier who is a regular on themotte, who would’ve
guessed.
I would not mind if the "deplatforming doesn't silence terrible opinions!" crowd chooses to fuck around and find out. Reddit is a little too mainstream and innocent people can still wander in there without knowing what kind of place it is; all parties would be happier if the Siskindsphere moved entirely to Parler or whatever.
The problem is with echo chamber subs like this which enable this shiftiness. Confront them outside of that and they're exposed for what they really are. I'm quite happy about this guy who was posting transphobic stuff on the libgen subreddit last week - I called him out, and he lost. his. shit. and had no response other than insulting me.
Yeah who can complain when your kids will be brought up in constant hunger, pain, good odds of an early death, and the near-certainty they'll end up sold to someone else and you will never see them ever again?
'But at least your genetic line will not die out!'
E: I'm always reminded of the weird ball crushing scene in the 2011 movie 'immortals' when I see people complain about this stuff. Where the evil king hyperion creates cuckslaves by crushing mens balls with a large hammer while giving a speech about how disappointed the new slaves ancestors will be in that there will be no more kids. Really weird movie. [Article talking about this](https://ew.com/article/2011/11/12/immortals-groin-crushing-scene/) (If you have never seen this movie, listen to me, and skip it, it sucks and is stupid).
It is also so competitive and toxic. You saw some undertones of that in primalpoly's interactions with his girlfriend? wife? dunno what it was.
Must be so lonely too.
Yeah, an obsession with genetic offspring seems to be a big part of what drives these dudes. Personally, I find it really weird. Perhaps it's because I'm adopted, and I never felt like my family was "less than," nor that my parents weren't my parents.
For me, a focus on genetic offspring is an immediate red flag that I'm dealing with fash.
I can't say for sure what motivates them, but indeed, the is-ought barrier is a big part of why this viewpoint seems so alien. After all, even Dawkins understood the is-ought aspect of this. He was pretty clear that we are not obligated to care about what our "selfish genes" want.
He also claims (idk if it's true) that slaves' birth rate was higher than White Americans. Yeah, they had more kids *so they could be ripped away and sold*. How nice of us.
Yeah, and the scary part, this isnt that uncommon an argument. I have certainly see it before, and dgerard mentioned Aureli also brought an argument like this mottzi up. The stormfront connection joke has a weird basis in truth.
And I think that shows a different way to look at this argument. It might not be about slavery, I might be a tool to make people more accepting of the white genocide bullshit. The undertone isnt agency, or providing proof for statements (as there was none offered), no it is the fear of the breeding non white people, muh genetics.
> Fuck them and fuck naraburns in particular for re-approving the comment with the most mealy-mouthed addition of "some citations would be nice".
Reading naraburns's modposts, you'll find two very different tones of responses: when responding to racists, and when responding to people who disagree with racists. It is, as mentioned, _really_ blatant.
European (English, French, Portuguese and Spanish are the big offenders I know about) chattel slavery was ALMOST unprecedented in its number of victims, brutal conditions and lack of rights. Like, they were worse than almost anyone before or since in every respect.
The basic story is that the advent of industrialisation created a new form of slavery (chattel) which was incentivised by things like globalisation and the differentiation between agrarian and industrial regions
So, for example, one explanation (I’m not being a completist here) for why chattel slavery was less popular in the American North was that rather than relying on slaves for labour as in the South, industry (as opposed to farmers) was reliant on relatively skilled workers who couldn’t be forced as such in the same way as farmhands (slaves)
My thesis is that the sheer brutality of chattel slavery was a product of these conditions, with (at least) two caveats:
1. “Slavery” is a term that really doesn’t capture what’s going on: under the Raj the British Empire organised a system which was indistinguishable from chattel slavery in America
2. Industrialisation itself, and wage labour, only effected change in the sense that it created a class of Northern industrial labour which was differentiated from Southern slaves while maintaining the hierarchy of power
Yes and no.
On the negative side, chattel slavery is really bad compared to other forms of slavery, which themselves were not great. If you had to be a slave, you’d probably prefer to be one in Rome rather than Virginia, all things considered. The attachment of slavery to racial characteristics ended up being particularly pernicious in the long run; historically slavery was an economic condition, but making it a racial one has effectively poisoned the society that created such a system.
On the flip side, there were slave systems running in parallel with America that were much worse. Haiti was particularly brutal, with the typical slave being dead in a few years. Haiti was so fatal that they never developed a self sustaining population, and most of the slaves never really learned French, instead they typically kept their native tongue and died before learning a pidgin language. If one had to be a chattel slave, you’d rather be in the Carolinas than in Haiti.
Also every slave-owning society's going to have a pretty wild divergence between functions/area/owner behavior in terms of lifespan & tolerability. The experiences of a house-slave in the North =/= the experiences of a slave working cotton in the South. Likewise there's a pretty extravagant difference in antiquity between 'Local used for mining labor near Rio Tinto in Spain' & 'Domestic servant slave in Rome' despite both being parts of the same system.
Also the nature of history means that trying to create 'typical' slave narratives is a bit tricky. The ones that got brutally worked to death in short order tended not to be remarked on nor given opportunities for liberation. Modern day slavery being within the last few centuries in highly-literate societies means we've got a way more comprehensive view of conditions than those that took place millenia ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/22fdcs/how_bad_was_the_life_of_a_roman_slave/
Interesting thread on the matter.
To add on top, the differences between various types of slaves was so great that at certain times and places significant social gaps would form between them. Not as great as between master and slave, but still present.
In Haiti on most of the large plantations, the job of driving and whipping the slaves *fell to another slave*. Naturally these “drivers” saw themselves as distinct from the lower laborers they drove, and similarly the occasionally educated city slaves also saw themselves as distinct from the plantation slaves.
> The experiences of a house-slave in the North =/= the experiences of a slave working cotton in the South.
Also life on large plantations vs small farms vs urban settings was wildly different for enslaved people in the US. An enslaved urban craftsman in Atlanta might have enjoyed more personal liberty and less degradation on a day to day basis than their free counterparts in New York, and it wasn't entirely unheard of for someone in that situation to purchase their own family members. But a field hand on a large plantation might literally witness lashings on a daily basis. With less oversight/visibility and more economic pressure, conditions on small farms could be even more horrific, with mutilation as a consequence for 'offenses' as banal as attempting to learn to read or oversleeping. The collapse of these sorts of distinctions was a major criticism of Fogel and Engerman's *Time on the Cross*, which I'm guessing is the ultimate source for many of the misleading claims the linked Stormfronter is making. It's a bit like examining the modern labor system by examining the conditions for engineers at Google while ignoring the variation in practices you might find at McDonald's or Wal*Mart.
(Note: I'm not saying Fogel and Engerman are/were Stormfronters themselves. They were at least half-decent historians trying to explore the issue with fairly innovative methods for the time -- though they suffered from the biases of their own cultural milieu, of course.)
To the point where in many cultures that aren't strictly based on roman law definitions of "slavery" can get pretty tricky. (heck, it even starts to blur in medieval europe)
cantbeproductive & co are very blatantly lying and trying to make American slavery look "better" by making it sound like the Ottoman Empire mass castrated all slaves, when in reality eunuch slaves were very rare and expensive, and there are Middle Eastern and North African populations with significant ancestry from enslaved foreigners.
Also, castration was infamously used as a punishment by slavers in the United States.
I am, by all accounts, sick in the head, and a Reddit masochist. I
found a comment in his post history from a few days ago where he
referred to some nameless “rootless cosmopolitan” to demean a black
woman. Upvoted on CWR, because of course it is.
I dunno guys/gals, whatever pleasure we get from staring into the
abyss, there’s an abyss staring back into us. Is this healthy, or all we
all just dying inside?
You're not wrong, your point is well taken, I just miss the *fun* sneers. Remember just dunking on Big Yud all the time? Now we've ended up like ParlerWatch except our targets are people who have possibly read a book once.
I acknowledge that it's probably necessary at this moment in history. Just read this comment in a really depressed tone of voice.
There is no possibility of “reparations” because there was no moral
harm done, because humans had not yet learned that they shouldn’t
enslave large swaths of barbarians.
Lmao, take a quick glance at that smoothbrained cunt’s profile and
you’ll note that he’s the perfect example of a dumbfuck who thinks his
opinions should be given as much weight as academic and scientific
peer-reviewed research.
Anyone who’s done even the most basic of research knows that rape of
both female and male slaves was incredibly widespread. It’s the academic
consensus; a position backed by original sources and decades of
research.
What actually happened is that u/cantbeproductive stumbled upon some
YouTube video once, and now thinks himself an expert, like most of the
pseudo-intellectual shitstains of that subreddit.
If pure stupidity took on the form of an argument, it’ll manifest
itself as his comment.
I’m not surprised that he’s a Tucker
Carlson fan, the official show of TheMotte. The majority of Mottzis
don’t read or watch anything outside of the right wing bubble.
So the anti-evil squad took this down, naraburns put it back up, and
another mod took it down.
No comment from that mod on why it was deleted. I wonder if they’re
starting to realize that the sheer degree of awful on their
subreddit is drawing eyes.
Not all male slaves were castrated, and the Motte post conflating the 1.25 million Ottoman European slaves (over several centuries) seems to think that was their fate for some reason. Most (male) Ottoman slaves from Europe found their way into the Ottoman navy as press ganged galley slaves, or into North African farms and quarries where their treatment was comparable to American plantation slaves (i.e. pretty bad).
Castration was a major bottlenecking process that required skilled practitioners and a lot of luck, and was thus limited to a small number of slaves every year for logistical reasons.
Slaves do have a genetic legacy in the Middle East as well. Not sure why they think otherwise, unless they assume someone's genetic legacy vanishes if they were to marry someone of a different ethnicity.
And with that, I guess I can never post on the Motte.
In practice, mostly no. For various reasons. There are example of multi-generational slavery in the muslim world, but at least in theory the children of muslim slaves became free (this of course heavily incentivized conversion) there are examples of slaveowners trying to limit conversion and/or not freeing their slaves despite this, but *as a rule* slavery in the muslim world tended to be one-generation. (though note that freed slaves were still socially and to some extent legally dependant on their former masters, like in Rome)
EDIT: Note that I am summarizing about 1500 years of slavery across half the world here there are uh... going to be exceptions. Lots of them.
Additional awfulness in that post: apologetics for the whipping and rape of enslaved people appealing to 19th century standards for what was considered rape, calling American slavery “small fries,” writing off abolitionists as biased accounts.
Then for the cherry on top of the hate sundae: Reddit’s Anti-Evil Operations removed the post then r/TheMotte’s mod team added it back.
Edit: turns out cantbeproductive is also yet another a holocaust denier who is a regular on themotte, who would’ve guessed.
This obsession with not having your semen die out is so weird.
Also 2 buttons, button 1: ‘post without citations’ button 2: ‘post citations but the only ones you can find are from stormfront’.
[removed]
Literally historical revisionism.
Mottzi is an excellent sneer
I am, by all accounts, sick in the head, and a Reddit masochist. I found a comment in his post history from a few days ago where he referred to some nameless “rootless cosmopolitan” to demean a black woman. Upvoted on CWR, because of course it is.
I dunno guys/gals, whatever pleasure we get from staring into the abyss, there’s an abyss staring back into us. Is this healthy, or all we all just dying inside?
this was literally an old Davis Aurini claim
“barbarians”
a totally unbiased, rational argument
Have these people read any books ever?
Lmao, take a quick glance at that smoothbrained cunt’s profile and you’ll note that he’s the perfect example of a dumbfuck who thinks his opinions should be given as much weight as academic and scientific peer-reviewed research.
Anyone who’s done even the most basic of research knows that rape of both female and male slaves was incredibly widespread. It’s the academic consensus; a position backed by original sources and decades of research.
What actually happened is that u/cantbeproductive stumbled upon some YouTube video once, and now thinks himself an expert, like most of the pseudo-intellectual shitstains of that subreddit.
If pure stupidity took on the form of an argument, it’ll manifest itself as his comment.
When will the pain stop
I’m not surprised that he’s a Tucker Carlson fan, the official show of TheMotte. The majority of Mottzis don’t read or watch anything outside of the right wing bubble.
could have said it shorter by saying “i’ve never read a history book not written by a white supremacist”
Jesus fucking Christ
Emphasis theirs.
God I hate how they talk so much. Bunch of fucking Shapiros
So the anti-evil squad took this down, naraburns put it back up, and another mod took it down.
No comment from that mod on why it was deleted. I wonder if they’re starting to realize that the sheer degree of awful on their subreddit is drawing eyes.
I remember reading that Chinese slaveowners would often let their slaves free to marry.
Are there any non-Western slavery which was hereditary ? Arabs castrated their male slaves for instance.