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EY poll: Would you want to live in a world with flipped gender roles? (https://i.redd.it/g2bzwqbz9qr61.jpg)
61

Bret Deveraux of acoup.blog, which I highly recommend, had some great points about traditional gender roles.

First, traditionally women spun yarn and made clothing. Keeping a typical household clothed took about 7.5hrs of labor per day alone. This work was just as important as farming, as in most of the world a family will freeze to death without clothing before they’ll starve to death. In the modern world with cheap, industrial fabrics and HVAC we drastically undervalue the importance of spinning and weaving to a household’s survival.

Second, these rolls were norms, but not strictly enforced. Women helped out with the harvest during critical periods, and I’m sure plenty of men knew how to spin and weave a bit. A widow or widower would default to social support or selling excess on the market to survive, but it’s a rare fool who decides to starve or freeze to death on the behalf of gender roles.

Third and most important: we get the reason why these roles were “assigned” completely wrong. In modern imagination we assume that men tended the fields as a status or strength thing. In reality the issue here is that in a world without formula or breast pumps men are literally incapable of keeping babies alive. Because women are the only ones capable of nursing, a critical task for family survival, they ended up picking up tasks that are easily interrupted, like spinning and weaving.

And finally, the real liberator of women, by total hours, was the spinning wheel. Spinning yarn was ~85% of the labor required to clothe a household, and the spinning wheel reduced that by a factor of 5-10x.

E: it’s worth pointing out that aside from having babies, nothing that drove gender roles above still applies. Men can and do nurse babies via bottle or formula, and literally nobody in the modern world has to make their own clothing or grow their own food in order to survive. We still cook a bit, obviously, but modern appliances make this a hobby and not a laborious and dangerous necessity. The idea that we should continue to organize our society around the limitations and needs of a medieval peasant is just laughably strange.

> We still cook a bit, obviously, but modern appliances make this a hobby and not a laborious and dangerous necessity. Also, the amount of preparation that is already done for us. There is a *lot* of work that happens between "chicken running around" and "chicken drumsticks in a sealed package at the supermarket," and this is the case in pretty much every aspect of cooking. I made black bean soup last night. The beans were canned, the vegetables and cilantro were picked and cleaned for me, the chicken broth came from a carton, and the cheese came pre-shredded in a bag. I haven't grown my own beans or made my own Cheddar cheese, but I've grown a few vegetables, cooked dried beans, and made my own chicken stock. All of that is a great hobby if you feel like doing it, but as an unending obligation, it would be fucking terrible. It *was* and *is* fucking terrible - billions of people had to do it in the past, and they still do in much of the world.
Just the work that goes into having black beans not poison you is big. See [this](https://www.statefoodsafety.com/Resources/Resources/toxic-beans) but nowadays a lot of beans do come already precooked because the modern world isn't that bad.
It's kidney beans that will really screw you up. Black beans don't require as much care, as far as I know. I'm careful with dried kidney beans, but I'll happily toss black beans into the pressure cooker and cook 'em right then and there. Maybe I'm slowly poisoning my family and don't even know it.
If you're worried, just soak them overnight in the pressure cooker and change the water when you go to actually cook them. Doing this helped get rid of whatever gastric distress beans gave me.
Ah, right I could have sworn there was a type of black bean which had this, but guess im wrong, thanks.
Pressure cookers destroy the toxins within minutes so feel free to do that with kidney beans too. The only issue there is kidney beans tend to split if they're not soaked. Slow cookers are the ones to worry about and honestly I don't like slow-cooked beans anyway.
For black beans and others of similar size, the slow cooker works just fine. Even putting a thick padded bag around the pot works. (Bring to a boil, put pot in bag for 20 minutes or so, to warm the bag, then remove bag and boil again. Then you can leave it in the bag for a few hours and the beans will be cooked.) It's a cooking process that works way better if you're able to do it on breaks from work, though. I'll probably have to switch to a regular slow cooker when i go back to the office (and hope it gets as hot as my bagged pot). Kidney beans need a higher temperature, though. I don't even buy them because I don't want to mess with that.
>And finally, the real liberator of women, by total hours, was the spinning wheel. Spinning yarn was ~85% of the labor required to clothe a household, and the spinning wheel reduced that by a factor of 5-10x. "It is only possible to achieve real liberation in the real world... by employing real means, that slavery cannot be abolished without the steam-engine and the mule and spinning-jenny, serfdom cannot be abolished without improved agriculture, and that, in general, people cannot be liberated as long as they are unable to obtain food and drink, housing and clothing in adequate quality and quantity. 'Liberation' is an historical and not a mental act, and it is brought about by historical conditions, the development of industry, commerce, agriculture, the conditions of intercourse..." -- Marx
Also nursing happened for a lot longer back in the day (I’ve heard up to 3 years) and infant (and other) mortality rates were higher so women were more obliged to be pregnant often. Thanks ladies. So yah it wasn’t that women couldn’t hunt or whatever else, it was that pregnant people with 0-3 year olds strapped to their tits can’t hunt.
Look I think you are wrong here, babies are great projectile weapons, doing blunt, sonic and olfactory damage, producing [special status effect items](http://bootstrike.com/Ultima7bg/Online/steven.php), and you can always generate a new baby. It is just not currently part of the hunting meta.
Godammit Soyweiser I don’t disagree with you. There’s just no way to balance combat with babies as weapons. Everyone just rolls female chaotic/evil and cheese their way through life.
I would not take Deveraux’s assertions seriously. There are many errors within his social, economic, and technical discussions of textile production, and there are many examples within Medieval and Early Modern textile production that directly contradict precisely what he’s claiming.
I just read Deveraux' piece yesterday (for context, it's [here](https://acoup.blog/2021/03/19/collections-clothing-how-did-they-make-it-part-iii-spin-me-right-round/)), and he specifically mentioned that he concentrated on Ancient (Roman) sources. Any clarifications from other sources would be very welcome!
Sure. The two largest issues I have with it is that it assumes that textile production stayed largely within the household, and that textile production remained entirely women's work. Spinning certainly did, though he's wrong to say that European yarn production progressed neatly from drop spindle to treadle wheel, or that a treadle wheel gives you any particular advantages over most hand powered wheels besides possibly speed and easy ability to work flax. [For instance, in England, the treadle spinning wheel was viewed as a toy for rich women, unless of course you had to spin flax, where both hands are needed.](https://theknittinggenie.com/2014/03/05/youre-doing-it-even-more-wrong-or-how-the-great-wheel-survived/) I think it's also a bit suspect to assert that because X is women's work, and X is also necessary for survival, that X was valued in the same way, or in a perfectly complementarian way, to men's work. Of course, that gets into nebulous issues of what we mean by "value," and "value" gets harder and harder to assert the further back in time you go because of the lack of and nature of the source material. However, in terms of monetary compensation, spinners were often paid quite poorly (see the link above for early modern examples, and Hutton's "Organizing Specialized Production: Gender in the Medieval Flemish Wool Cloth Industry (c. 1250–1384)" for Late Middle Ages examples), or restricted in other ways that would prevent amassing wealth. In Hutton's paper, she notes that women who combed, carded, or spun were prohibited from having more than a week's worth of wool for two workers in their homes at any one time, ostensibly to prevent them from selling or distributing it to others. So if we're measuring value in terms of monetary compensation, then I would assert that women's work in textile production became dramatically undervalued beginning in the High Middle Ages, despite being a necessity for survival. Speaking of economics, the textile industry changed dramatically over the course of the Middle Ages. Deveraux is correct that textile production in the Early Middle Ages was based in the household, but he doesn't discuss the combined effects of technological and economic change on the industry. With the invention of the horizontal treadle loom and the advent of guilds, weaving and other facets of textile production became sharply gendered. (I'm going to just interject here that these changes weren't immediate over time or space, were dependent on the level of urbanization in a given region, and were not absolutes.) A really good overview of the changes that occurred within the textile industry with respect to gender can be found in Øye's "When Did Weaving Become a Male Profession?" And as the title suggests, not every facet of textile production stayed as women's work. It's generally accepted that the introduction of the horizontal treadle loom (circa 11th century in Europe, though the timespan of its local adoption varied substantially), which replaced the warp weighted loom (though again, the progression from warp weighted loom to horizontal treadle loom was not a nice, neat, linear one), was what drove men's involvement in weaving. Because one can weave faster (and weave longer pieces of continuous fabric) on a horizontal treadle loom, this allowed the weaving of cloth to develop into a centralized, professional industry. The shift from women's work to men's work naturally took time, as of course women held the expertise in textile production. But technology and the effects it can have on industry are powerful renegotiaters of what is masculine and what is feminine. What particularly helped to cement this shift was the advent of guilds. Early guilds were more open to women, and it would be wrong to say that guilds shut women out of weaving entirely and geographically universally. However, as textile production became more commercial, the roles of women were narrowed, and in instances where they participated alongside men, their relationship to production was informal, based on family ties, or subordinate to men. Returning to Hutton's paper, Late Middle Ages cloth production in Flanders was remarkably organized by gender, where men monopolized the higher status positions. For instance, weavers and finishers were essentially exclusively men, whereas spinners, washers, carders, sorters, and combers were exclusively female. Some overlap of gender did exist in dying, draping, and warp-winding, but on the whole, low status textile work ultimately became coded as feminine, and high status as masculine. Most of my own experience is with Early Medieval textile production in the North Atlantic, but I'll also recommend the book *Women, Production, and Patriarchy in Late Medieval Cities,* as it discusses the economics of gender, the intersection of the formal and informal economies of that time, hierarchies of production, and how Medieval women were actors within this system. Certainly there's a good bit that Deveraux does get right in his posts, but I sense that he suffers from a tendency I see from many recent popular writers, who in trying to reevaluate the contributions of women, paste on top of those societies a very modern, very complementarian understanding of gender roles. That this seems to crop up in textile production I believe has to do with the particularly romantic aesthetic of textile production itself. Preindustrial textile production is something we understand as being both socially and economically significant, however the ways in which it was socially significant don't quite match the ways in which it was economically significant. I'll have to dig up the book, but I remember a chapter where the author posited that the reason textile production became economically men's work but not necessarily socially men's work (obvious caveats of space, time, etc.) has everything to do with the way textile production was portrayed in antiquarian sources. In those sources, it was indeed women's work -- or work overseen by women -- and was viewed as having a moralizing influence on those women who undertook it. Consider of course Augustus banishing Julia and forcing her to spin as punishment.
Thanks a lot for taking the time to reply at such length. > Preindustrial textile production is something we understand as being both socially and economically significant, however the ways in which it was socially significant don't quite match the ways in which it was economically significant. And this is where I think Deveraux' piece has value. He's not writing an academic thesis, he's writing popular history, but he's addressing a newer audience - those that see history filtered through popular media and games. And him putting the focus on how much work was done by women and how important it was is a needed corrective to the (often unconscious) focus on warfare and "industrial" production in games and other media. For me, seeing the raw numbers of how much thread had to be produced to clothe a family was eye-opening (and I do consider myself a bit more sophisticated reader of history than many others).
That's a good point, and while the smaller technical bits will never not irk me as a historian and producer of textiles (weaver's guilds *love* talking to people about this shit), I am likely conflating his exact target audience with some other writers targeting slightly different audiences. And in that sense my quibbles about properly contextualizing the value that was generally given to women in the preindustrial textile industry is arguably moot. That said, I see similar analyses in the broad trad-o-sphere pop up from time to time, which use that leap from "X is woman's work, and X is necessary for survival" to pedestalize women in a historically incongruent way that propagandizes trad values through a hyper-idealized conception of modern complementarian gender roles. That annoys me. That annoys me a whole lot.
Not just having babies - sexual strategy is also still different we don’t select for the same things ( maybe we should)

Yud’s r/egg_irl now? /s

To be fair, "A Girl Corrupted by the Internet is the Summoned Hero?!" is one of the most eggiest books I've ever read

Dont think this is that sneerworthy tbh.

This part is just weird:

If I was writing the fantasy novel I’d write it with men needing to donate a two-year supply of yang energy to create a successful pregnancy, and utility Life Magic having sped up female pregnancies to one month

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Unrelated but finding out that Musk and Bezos being huge fans of Bank's Culture series kinda ruined the books for me. Irrational, I know.
i started to read Dune and had trouble taking it seriously because it's so obvious to me now that these guys all think they're the kwisatz haderach
Haha! [I re-read it recently](http://gerikson.com/blog/books/read/Dune-and-Heretics.html) and didn't really get that impression... ofc Musk/Bezos are probably leaning towards the post-scarcity "utopia" of the Culture, while most of the neo-reactionaries (or "Rax" to borrow Ken McLeod's neologism) nod approvingly at the feudalism of Dune.
You also listened to that podcast? Dunno if it was linked here or somewhere else. E: here it is https://soundcloud.com/utopianhorizons/the-culture-series-its-billionaire-fans-w-kurt-schiller
No, Musk has named stuff in SpaceX after Culture vessels, and Bezos/Amazon was gonna make a series of Consider Phlebas.
> Bezos/Amazon was gonna make a series of Consider Phlebas. wtf, that's the worst one. He was still getting his feet, the plot is all over the place.
It never got off the concept stage, thankfully. But it's interesting you don't rate Consider Phlebas... it's been a while since I read it and there are a number of pacing issues, but when I first read it in the 1990s the sensawunda hit me like a ton of bricks.
It's possible I'm misremembering - it's been at least 15 years since I read it. I also read it after 3 or 4 other Culture novels (especially *Use of Weapons* and *The Player of Games*) that I thought were a lot stronger.
I'll definitely rate *Use of Weapons* higher - but *Consider* was such an eye-opener for me (coming off the late 80s of cyberpunk and stale space opera) that I can't help but remember it fondly. (Not that I didn't like cyberpunk but every genre does seem to get a bit overexploited in genre fiction).
> dunking on Paul Graham for being a fan of Young Sheldon lol, I actually Googled this to see if it was canon. As far as I can tell, it's not...right?
Honestly it's kinda sad that Yudkowsky has to pretend to be some sort of AI guru when what he really wants to do is write genre fiction. I mean, I think with a bit of polish and a good editor he could put out some decent scifi/fantasy.
Yep, there is a lot of interesting fiction you can write from this setup. From 'suddenly gender roles are switched and women sap energy from men to give birth quicker' or "there are now two types of humans, the gender swapped energy suckers quick breeders and the 'normal' ones" (this latter would quickly go into pretty yikes territory if done badly however).
HPMOR is not worse than a lot of published novels (because extruded fantasy product is that mediocre). Mostly it needed to be shortened by half, and an editor with an axe. Cut chapters 30-99, tidy the cut edges, there you go.
roll d6 to determine the hit to your yang energy
Sadly I yinged when I should have yanged, and got hit by both wands of fireball by an angry wizard. And that is why I'm now an undead monster. (E: This is just a very weird reference to shadowrun, it is a quote from the fluff of [Cybermancy](https://shadowrun.fandom.com/wiki/Source:Cybertechnology) rewritten to be fantasy).
If I never hear the word "utility" again I'll be very happy. Like the emphasis on utility at all else is just... over the top. It feels like in the rationals world the second your utility tips over to 'not worth it' your body is recycled and the world goes on. Do rationalists believe in the inherent value of human life? I do. And not because of religious reasons, but because if we didn't, then the world would suck.
Goddamn it, I needed someone else to say this. Reading EA and such made the notion that I was just a waste of resources that would be more efficient as fertilizer ten times stronger.
My friend taught me this mantra... I’m a human being, not a human doing. You can just...be. That’s the magic of the value and dignity of human life.
EA marketing works hard to not make people think that. I market EA sometimes, and I usually focus on "You want to donate X amount of your resources to charity. Here are some ways to do the most good with X." I've never asked a person who seems to barely have enough money to live, to donate to charity. I've sometimes seen door-to-door charity marketers do that, and I've often seen megachurches do that. I think it's terrible and unproductive.
Okay, so my firsthand contact with effective altruists has been limited to a dear friend of mine who went to MIT after we graduated from high school. (Hi Valerie.) I'm willing to claim responsibility for my own ignorance. Suffice to say the fertilizer notion was already sitting in my head before I ever found lesswrong, and I confirmation-biased out the bits about life's value being measurable.
Well that part of the ensuing thread (plus the really lopsided respondent gender ratio) caught my attention
Yeah the tought experiment falls apart quickly. Another win for the thinking clearly crowd. This thought experiment was from the 'forget modafinil, take weed' category. (And so less sneer, and more lol for us).
Didn’t Asimov make a species with three biological sexes? Hell the rationalists are very unimaginative when it comes to hypothetical reproduction systems
I've heard that [Ursula K. Le Guin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_K._Le_Guin#Gender_and_sexuality) is where you want to go for really interesting sci-fi ideas about sex and sexuality. And real species on earth are [even more interesting](https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520280458/evolutions-rainbow).
“ Rationals (or "lefts") are the logical and scientific sex; identified with masculine pronouns and producing a form of sperm. They have limited ability to pass through other bodies. Emotionals (or "mids") are the intuitive sex; identified with the feminine pronouns and provide the energy needed for reproduction. Emotionals can pass freely in and out of solid material, including rock. Parentals (or "rights") bear and raise the offspring, and are identified with masculine pronouns. Parentals have almost no ability to blend their bodies with others, except when helped by one or both of the other sexes.”
Yang energy, an objective and measurable thing. The fuck? We have no way of knowing if that's even remotely equivalent to the high cost incurred by pregnant people in our world. And look, as nice as it'd be to not be pregnant for nine months, I doubt that the drastic changes to one's body that pregnancy involves would be anything but excruciating and dangerous in that time period.
'Pushes out an egg', yes humans have beaks now. Look this thought experiment takes a bit of work.

Among the best parts of this is the incredibly small % of Yud’s replies by women

A surprisingly low proportion of "yes" answers from women A surprisingly high proportion of "yes" answers from women who would answer this question on Yud's Twitter

This is your brain before reading Left Hand of Darkness

Or even Evolution's Rainbow.

you otherwise keep your current body

Well then that’s the fucking point🙄

To isolate the cultural aspect of gender?
Yea I was just joking abt it being one of those “press this button to get X, but at the cost of Y” jokes and being trans.

https://www.reddit.com/r/discworld/comments/edpogg/dwarves_and_gender_identity/ Pratchett’s dwarves are gender-indistinguishable which should be more interesting than Yud’s question

Isn’t Yud divorced?

The rationalists basically expect society to fix their problems, especially their gender/insecurity/gf problem: snav on Twitter: “In response to a deep psychic pain, you have two choices: wait for”society” (whoever that is) to do something about it, or do something about it. The problem with “comment 171” and “Untitled” is that they choose the former. (brief thread)” / Twitter

Which is why so many of them think that they would be helpless as women etc.

Hold up, why are we ignoring moving costs to moving to an alternate universe? I’m genuinely interested in what the costs are for switching worlds, here.

Honestly, more interesting than the actual question.

Doesn’t have enough female responses to likely be significant =/

interesting that only 10% of his followers are female

I misread the poll that men would want to live the women life cause that would be my choice.

Time to get some free drinks in the club now. I love tap water.

If I were the one to select this world would be by my feet rn, or at least some free takeaway.