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The endless rationalizing of the slightly annoyed and boldly assured mind (https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/n6id62/the_endless_rationalizing_of_the_slightly_annoyed/)
52

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/why-is-it-hard-to-acknowledge-preferences

“[…] my impression is that the same people who are good at taking ideas seriously are also good at respecting preferences. If you’re the sort of person who, upon hearing a good argument for cryonics, will start looking into how to freeze disembodied heads, you’re probably good at making large updates away from common-sensical priors really quickly. I find that if I tell one of these people my weird preference, they’ll take it into account quickly and without protest. Maybe in the transhuman future, when only the cryonauts’ disembodied heads are left, I’ll finally be able to get nice people at B&Bs to stop talking”

A Jungian would call it an archetype, a cognitivist would call it a schema, a Kleinian would call it an object, a Bayesian would call it a prior.

I’m no expert on the subject, but these all strike me as fairly different things.

Yeah... Jungian archetype theory is supposed to represent the disparity and unity of preferences/desires/personalities, not the opposite of that. I can kind of see where he’s going with putting together “schemas” and “priors” in that they’re both diachronic concepts that try to explain subjective judgements in something like a logical form. Christ knows where he’s going with Klein though, an “object” in Klein is a theoretical account of intentionality. It’s like he picked out four concepts in the history of psychology that have literally anything to do with phenomenology and decided they should fit.
Did not expect you to muse about Klein. Is she better known in her native (sort of?) England? The quote in the OP is delightful though: "we're better at respecting preferences... I look forward to a future where everyone who doesn't have my preferences is dead so I don't have to try to tolerate them."
I went through a period of being interested in psychoanalysis as an outsider and sceptic when I was a teenager, so I know a thing or two about the big names, or at least enough to double-check whether I’m getting something wrong or right on google. Also I’ve spent most of my life in and out of psychotherapy anyway, so I picked up a few things that way too. In addition yeah she was a pretty big deal in her own time here so there’s probably some historical vestiges of influence going on in my awareness of her.
There's a charming (?) story about the bunch associated with her and the bunch associated with Anna Freud arguing frustrately with one another while German air raids are going on, and Winnicott or someone like this had to be, "Uh, excuse me... perhaps there is a more pressing matter at this particular moment." To my reckoning, Klein's and Lacan's theoretical developments are the best of post-Freudian thought, but they were both such eccentrics I have my doubt that either personality was that helpful -- if nonetheless they were insightful -- as therapists. Klein's personal technique, like Lacan's though in a very different way, was unforgiving. Her students largely sanded down its extremities, through further inquiry and cross-pollination with ideas from other post-Freudians, to produce a more workable therapeutic approach. Like Lacan, she was largely verbotten in American psychoanalysis until relatively recently, so she hasn't had the cultural impact in the US as she had in the UK or South America. Hence my still finding it odd to see her namedropped in casual conversation.

That last paragraph demonstrates how the very bias he’s talking about appears on an ideological level.

There’s something vaguely addictive about entertaining offbeat, bold things like cryonics or eugenics or Neocameralism that validate your ego and subtle prejudices. Not even officially accepting them, maybe just reading about them, discussing them, and defending their right to be circulated.

It brings pleasure to entertain these ideas, viewing yourself as enlightened enough to not be put off by radical, offensive ideas like normal people would be while also taking pride in being, “complex” as in willing to accept gay marriage, but also thinking women have the minds of paleolithic gatherers.

At the same time they won’t, “take seriously” ideas which don’t fit their own priors.

The type of person he talks about in this article resonates with me, because it describes people I grew up with, specifically my father.

The most effective way I’ve found to communicate to others the relationship I have with my father is “My words do very little to have any effect on him, no matter how novel the words.”

It caused me some anguish growing up. And it shaped the way I treat others too, moving me in the opposite direction, to be extra receptive to the words and requests of others, for better or worse.

As the years passed, I tried to piece together an explanation as to why my father behaved this way with me. Unfortunately, because of our barrier of communication, it was and still is a puzzle for me. Some of the possible explanations that I’ve gathered include:

  • Him growing up in a more conservative time
  • Him growing up in relative poverty
  • Him growing up under a totalitarian regime
  • Undiagnosed anxiety disorder that makes him shut out even the most minor of stressors
  • Presence on the autism spectrum that makes communication difficult
  • Huge amount of stress at work that made him shun normal interpersonal communication at home
  • A particular philosophy about raising children.
  • Intergenerational trauma.

and many other factors that are personal to my family, all of them compounding and affecting each other in complex ways.

…..

Meanwhile Scott Alexander: “These people are pretty dumb and irrational, LOL, kind of like people who are skeptical of cryonics”.

I feel you. Honestly his posts on the real world, like this one, are lowkey haunting because they remind me of what a self-absorbed prick I was while a teenager. Fortunately I did not know English and the Italian blogsphere I interacted with were mostly very nice nerds reviewing obscure romantic novels, so I could not become "redpilled", an edgelord measuring skulls or triggering people for sake of it, or a pompous prick assuming everybody who was slightly inconvenient for him was an irrational idiot who should be forced to read the Sequences by law. But the attitude toward pretty much everybody around me was definitely the same of this post. Then you know, sooner or later, as you say, people get more fine-grained approach to people, they develop different lenses for different situations, recognize nuance and exercise empathy. People start asking themselves "what is this guy really trying to say? At which level the communication between us is not working?" rather than "this person annoys me, thus is broken. Let's find a just-so story of why he is broken". But I feel that communities like the rats, redpill, and anything too self-referential and prophetic-posing really, are very dangerous phenomena because they completely block the self development and bubble-bursting that the young men (usually are men) who fall in these cults need the most
Lots of people are self absorbed pricks as teenagers; as long as you grow out of it it’s nothing to worry about. There’s a damn good reason why “kids these days” is a meme going back at least as far as Plato; teenagers are often pretty annoying.
I think this is even worse in a way, because Scott ends where with 'this person is broken' and then goes to 'and that is why they cannot go to cryogenics heaven, and I'm happy to be in cryogenics heaven and not be bothered by these people'. It is a weird self centered vindictive streak in a way. (why does his preference to not be talked to take preference over their preference? So much so that you wish they would not take part in your ideal project of living forever).
My take is he's an econ student who has been traumatized and been made autistic by the discipline. It fits the general writing stlye ("preferences", "mental gear-shifting") and his arrogance.
Believe it or not, he's a psychiatrist actually. He went to medical school.

[deleted]

I didn’t even notice that. I do enjoy the author’s [posts I repent of](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QePFiEKZ4R2KnxMkW/posts-i-repent-of) post explaining it though. Virgin “subscribe to my substack” vs Chad “all my posts suck”
The Reverse Rogan: Call yourself an idiot *before* everyone else starts calling you an idiot.
Gotta admit, that’s pretty impressive. Most people would low key delete these rather than putting up that list.

That thought is more weirdly circular than an ouroboros.

So many words just to say he wishes humans would interact via API calls like computers. Transhumanists would rather upload their brains than accept the slightest ambiguity of being a wonderfully messy human being. And this guy is supposed to be a psychiatrist!

It’s the human condition: you make a request to someone and they output true or false.

Isn’t the whole point of going to a B&B to socialize with the hosts? This feels like someone going to a dinner theater and complaining that the staff didn’t accommodate his preference to be quiet so he could have a quiet conversation with his date. Maybe it’s worth considering whether your preferences are not in line with the circumstances that you have deliberately put yourself into?

I think that depends a bit on the B&B, some have it more and some less (in my low N experience), but yeah, the interpersonal social aspect is implied.
Sure, there's obviously a range, but it seems like a "rational" person who knows they don't want _any_ interpersonal social interaction with their hosts...would just get a hotel room.
Certainly, a rational person who doesn't want any interpersonal social interaction prob would then also go 'well, I fucked up there, doh, of course B&B people want some social interactions, guess I should pick a hotel next time', the Rational otoh... turns into the [cryonazi](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2lfZg-apSA).
Well, yeah, the other option would involve self-reflection and being willing to admit to your own mistakes, and God knows we can't have that!
Kind of amazing that the rationalists have created a whole philosophical movement to avoid saying “I messed up”.
I knew Scooter was raking it in with Substack, but I didn't know he was dating Anna Wintour.
Sorry that reference is going way over my head.
That's more my problem than yours.
I’d certainly expect more social interaction at a B&B, either with the hosts or guests, than I would at a Hotel.
Certainly, people asking all their guests about their fave colors seems a bit in the higher of social interaction end I mean (I did go to a B&B once where we just got the place and then the owners left, but others we socialized). And yes, of course you expect more at B&B than a hotel really weird he is making such a weird point out of it.
“The owners are harmlessly insane and asking about your favorite colors” is well within the spectrum of what I expect at a B&B, tbh.

holy shit, all this, because he had a bad experience at a B&B where people wanted to talk to him and his friend?

E: the quote is also crazy, taking an idea seriously doesnt have to mean you reach the same conclusion about the idea. Wtf is this weird stuff, if you would take cryo seriously you would believe in it…

if this pro-social behavior continues I will have no choice but to update my priors about B&B owners
You didnt update your priors already, and are only considering it, which means one thing. You have not signed up for cryogenics.
Yeah, if you don’t want to talk to random people, might I recommend a hotel rather than a B&B?

Whoa, the second top-level comment there is from someone I went to high school with. Weird.

Reading that comment, I feel sorry for you.

I can’t take Substack seriously until Maddox starts one.

One thing I noticed is that the whole article is predicated on this:

“I played along - no point in offending people - but I warned that my friend, who would be arriving a little later, was much more introverted, and would appreciate being efficiently directed to her room without the welcome committee.”

There is essentially no useful information here about what that interaction with the B&B owners actually looked like. And then this:

“We concluded that they were just inexplicably bad at some sort of mental gear-shifting.”

Like, how is this even a thing? I just. Huh?

Why do these people blog instead of starting the Ultra Party to raise national prestige through the first batch of (volunteer) Superhumans?

Also, their version of transhumanism implicitly assumes:

  1. The ability to improve one’s IQ or other features is restricted by class/race etc. and that transhuman resources ought to go to “the most deserving”
  2. That people through (formal) education, military service etc. cannot improve themselves

” Veidt had adopted a curious form of almost objectivist “willpower is all” thinking while rejecting the associated black and white morality. The idea of being special – somehow inherently superior to the average human – was on some level deeply repugnant to the son of German parents who left Germany out of disgust at the policies of Adolph Hitler ”

Ok this B&B thing is weird. It doesn’t seem to occur to Scooter that the proprietors had their own preferences which make their behavior rational, which could include, “I run a B&B with my spouse because I’m lonely and I like meeting new people.” Or, maybe the old people did listen, and didn’t realize how little small talk Scooter’s friend really wanted. It’s entirely possible they were going to cut the conversation off sooner and Scooter didn’t give them a chance. Instead, it’s just straight to nope, old people lose neurons and cognitive flexibility god look at me I’m so much more considerate than they are.