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Imagine you bought a book with the title How to Talk to A Contemptible Idiot Who Is Kind of Evil.

Sneerclub: The Book.

*Somebody* has to write that guidebook for family reunions.

I have to say I’m not a big fan of McIntyre’s work. I read his book Post-Truth, and it just reeked of what I would call a kind of “science idealisation” in which science is a self correcting enterprise in which scientists are solely motivated by finding the truth.

And according to McIntyre, the origin of post-truth are cognitive biases, big business, and post-modernism (obviously). It’s ironic that McIntyre’s example of a post-modernist is Foucault who of course spent much of his scholarship pointing out all the prejudices in supposedly truth concerned scientists.

Plus there’s the less than helpful fact that he gives different definitions of post-truth. Though I think the book also suffers because it was written prior to Trump coopting the term.

Oh hey it’s Orac! Man, been a while since I’ve read these posts- bet he’s having a field day with COVID denialism.

Nice quoted takedown/unmasking in the comments: “Chivers, … does the ‘eminently reasonable analysis of a current event from a tediously rationalist perspective’ pieces, providing ideological air cover for the real headbangers and bringing in the FBPE crowd..”

I remember when Tom Chivers was a reliably excellent science journalist. Really, I’d see his name and think “ah, this’ll be worth my time.” Then he discovered SSC.

I honestly kind of dislike a lot of the “science denier” rhetoric, since it implicitly buys into the attitude that science is “under siege”–not just people’s belief in certain scientific facts, but science as a… philosophy, for lack of a better word. Which I think it is not, really.

Even the people who are “anti-science” usually dress their ideology in the garb of science, and usually accept the scientific consensus about nearly everything aside from the handful of issues where they deny reality for politicized reasons. They’re not actually doing science, and they’re wrong, but I think it says a lot about the public’s trust in science that snake oil salesmen tend to advertise their products as “endorsed by doctors” or “scientifically proven to work” rather than “blessed by the Pope” or something.

Really? Perhaps my view is skewed from being homeschooled by young-Earth creationists, but I sat through a LOT of sermons growing up about academics/scientists/atheists/liberals being part of Satan's forces trying to take people away from god. I will grant that science deniers and snake oil salesmem try to pretend they're the real scientists - creationist preachers are no exception to that - but that is a siege of its own.
Outright creationists are actually a relatively small proportion of even the American population; they're about [20%](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/how-many-creationists-are-there-in-america/). Even then, mostly these days they seem to be trying to dress themselves as scientists, as you note--"intelligent design" being their current go-to fig leaf. Maybe my own view is wrongly skewed, but it seems that the number of creationists who wholeheartedly reject science itself is relatively low.
It seems that your comment contains 1 or more links that are hard to tap for mobile users. I will extend those so they're easier for our sausage fingers to click! [Here is link number 1 - Previous text "20%"](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/how-many-creationists-are-there-in-america/) ---- ^Please ^PM ^[\/u\/eganwall](http://reddit.com/user/eganwall) ^with ^issues ^or ^feedback! ^| ^[Code](https://github.com/eganwall/FatFingerHelperBot) ^| ^[Delete](https://reddit.com/message/compose/?to=FatFingerHelperBot&subject=delete&message=delete%20hcda5us)
I'm pretty sure you failed to make a claim there. I'm pretty sure they are indeed denying science as a philosophy. If they're not denying science as a philosophy, what are they doing then?
They are believing outright falsehoods, ignoring truths, or cherry-picking facts because it is ideologically convenient to them. Which is, indeed, denying truths that science has revealed to us. It is not, however, necessarily denying science as a philosophy. I'm sure all of *us* do what I've just described at various points, though I do think we do so less frequently and less blatantly (though I *would*, wouldn't I?). We're all biased. But that doesn't mean we "deny science." What matters in terms of "science as a philosophy" is whether we believe that the scientific method is an appropriate way for investigating empirical questions, whether we believe methodological naturalism is a useful tool, that there is an objective reality we all share, et cetera. If you asked global warming deniers, antivaxxers, et cetera, "Does the scientific method provide accurate information about the world?," "Should naturalism be the working philosophy when investigating empirical questions?," or "Is there an objective reality shared by all observers?," I think the vast majority would say *yes*. Then they'll argue that, akshully, science says that global warming isn't real (engineers are particularly bad about this, it seems), or they found this study that says deworming pills work, or that vaccines cause autism, or whatever the bullshit of the day is. This is unlike the behavior displayed by pretty much anyone else who rejects a philosophy. Kantians don't argue that you get more utility by never lying. Utilitarians don't argue that the categorical imperative commands you to pull a trolley lever. Atheists will argue about Bible verses, but only to try to underline Christian hypocrisy; we don't actually give a shit about what the Bible says and we'll openly admit it. Proponents of science-based medicine do not argue that using vaccines will align your chakras. I think it's more useful to relegate the term "science denier" to people who think that the philosophical assumptions of science are inherently unsound, rather than people who deny particular scientific facts, no matter how blindingly obvious those facts should be. So the claim is: 1. The difference between these "science deniers" and the rest of us is largely in degree, not in kind. Virtually everyone denies things that are scientifically true for non-scientific reasons; the "science deniers" just do so in a more blatant, frequent manner on hot topic issues. 2. Most of the "science deniers" accept the scientific consensus on most other matters, and agree with the philosophical foundations of science (as they are usually defined; I'm aware that there isn't a really good definition of what science actually *is*). 3. Given that, the term "science denier" should be reserved for someone who rejects science in its entirety as a valid method and philosophical system. Few such people exist, but there are some. It should not be used for global warming denialists, a substantial number of whom are avowed empiricists and atheists. At the *very* least, the fact that "science deniers" position themselves as being the legitimate advocates of science, and often genuinely believe themselves to be so, is a nuance that needs to be pointed out.
I think you're focusing on technical terms a bit. I think treating scientific results as a decoration to be casually ignored when convenient is a concise example of denying science as a philosophy. And I don't see any reason to treat it as a precious term to be restricted to the worst cases.

Obviously not. But the point is that there’s not some clear line between “real conspiracies” and “conspiracy theories”. When Alex Jones says that chemicals in the water are turning frogs gay, he’s referring to real claims that endocrine disruptors are affecting sexual development in lots of animals. It’s not easy to draw a line between real and fake, evidence-based and not evidence-based.

Alex Jones literally believes that the government is secretly putting mysterious gay chemicals in tap water with the explicit purpose of turning the frogs (you) gay. But no, I guess he’s actually expressing concern about frog endocrinology.