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TheMotte is a problem (https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/pp16jy/themotte_is_a_problem/)
posted on September 15, 2021 11:04 PM by u/Notaflatland
17

I’ve been on TheMotte since the culture war thread moved on and became a new subreddit. I appreciate the amazing conversation and posts that have developed there! There are some incredible and inspiring minds doing their best work on that subreddit.

There are also some of the worst minds of our generation using at a proving ground. It is becoming a bastion for religious zealots and smart indoctrinated people with an axe to grind.

Literally genociding races and people is posted about as a matter of course, there is a cursory attempt to hide it in a “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit” kind of way.

It is a problem.

u/spectacularlyrubbish 86 points at 1631751378.000000

There are some incredible and inspiring minds doing their best work on that subreddit.

You can’t see me, but I’m making a puzzled face at the screen.

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u/astro-newts 23 points at 1631751490.000000
> You can’t see me, that’s what u think
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u/spectacularlyrubbish 18 points at 1631755397.000000
Then gaze upon the majesty of my penis, and despair!
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u/maroon_sweater 24 points at 1631765392.000000
I also have a facial expression, like one side of my top lip is kind of arched up and
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u/Notaflatland -8 points at 1631751947.000000
There are golden eggs mixed in with the birdshit, dross, and nesting materials. I'm not the only one fighting against the dying of the light.
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u/dgerard 52 points at 1631779877.000000
no there aren't, and there never were, it was literally founded when the ones who couldn't hide their power level were kicked off the main subreddit
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u/Klosterheim 63 points at 1631773740.000000
That place is absolutely deeply lost and *there is something wrong with you that you didn't realize that it's bad sooner* \- don't worry, lots of us were there at some point. Observe some more and you'll realize that though the sub can give the appearance of a discourse happening, as a community they run the full gamut of reactionary garbage, not only Christian fundamentalism and genocide advocacy, but also a sometimes better disguised but no less ubiquitous hatred for the poor and LGBTQ+ people, love for patriarchy and traditional gender roles, some other kinds of conservativism I can't be bothered to remember right now, etc. Fight by educating yourself, not by giving them someone to "*rationally debate*".
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u/Soyweiser 65 points at 1631756361.000000

It is great, just sucks neonazis use it as a recruiting ground.

Wait, the opposite of great.

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u/Notaflatland -26 points at 1631757202.000000
Nazis can recruit anywhere. Should we shut down all communication?
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u/Shitgenstein 40 points at 1631762674.000000
I have nipples, Greg. Could you milk me? And nobody even mentioned shutting down /r/TheMotte, just that it's the opposite of great. Feelin' a bit Stockholm in the syndrome, bud?
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u/AlienneLeigh 3 points at 1632084870.000000
I mean, under the right circumstances, almost all human beings can lactate!
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u/Soyweiser 39 points at 1631757420.000000
Sure they can recruit anywhere, but they were (I say were because I assume they are smart enough to now invite people to their private reddits/voats/(and other servers) via DM's) recruiting openly on themotte. I hope you can see the difference.
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u/wholetyouinhere 26 points at 1631812300.000000
Nazis should be ejected from any space they try to enter. The end.
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u/sieben-acht 9 points at 1631862444.000000
Digital or physical, especially if it's the 20th floor.
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u/Notaflatland -8 points at 1631813623.000000
Yes they should. But that doesn't mean ripping out the phone lines everyone else uses.
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u/dgerard 26 points at 1631863586.000000
> But that doesn't mean ripping out the phone lines everyone else uses. please don't post shit this disingenuous and stupid here
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u/wholetyouinhere 18 points at 1631815373.000000
I don't believe I've advocated for ripping out any phone lines. Or, as I interpret your analogy, banning online spaces or communication. The point is, if one keeps nazis out of their community from the get-go, the community will never have a chance to become corrupted. All internet spaces should engage in this practice. There is a clear precedent -- real life. Social pressure forces nazis out of all manner of physical spaces, both public and private. The only way for them to gather is to build their own private spaces, or to have extremely contentious and short-lived rallies in the streets, where they invariably attract much larger counter-protests (frequently cancelling as a result) and accomplish nothing productive. The internet serves as an end-run around social pressures. In that social pressure doesn't kick in unless it is part of the culture of a particular online space. Otherwise that space becomes a vacuum for all the worst elements of humanity. All I advocate for is treating online spaces the same way we treat real life spaces, since the internet *is* real life now.
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u/solastsummer 7 points at 1631803432.000000
Yes. Social media and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.
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u/Shitgenstein 59 points at 1631750211.000000

Back in December,some motters were calling for a civil war because they were so convinced that Trump won the election. And, in case anyone forgot, a month later, a mob of Trump supporters tried to stop the electoral count.

I don’t think anyone, at least here, is unaware of how the discourse norms work there.

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u/dgerard 42 points at 1631779950.000000

I’ve been on TheMotte since the culture war thread moved on and became a new subreddit. I appreciate the amazing conversation and posts that have developed there!

“I joined the subreddit that was founded for the Nazis who were kicked off SSC because they just couldn’t help but show their power level, and it used to be really good”

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u/Notaflatland -5 points at 1631798681.000000
There are all kinds of insightful quality post there. It just so happens it also seems to attract the worst of the worst. They still need to argue with someone right?
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u/dgerard 22 points at 1631812534.000000
> There are all kinds of insightful quality post there. The racist kind, the religious nutcase kind, the incel kind ... Pretty sure (a) I don't believe you (b) there is no plausible reason to look there of all the places on the entire internet.
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u/AlienneLeigh 9 points at 1632085094.000000
I mean, if you check this guy's comment history, he's very firmly in the "hiding his power level" category, so there's absolutely no reason to take him seriously. https://www.reddit.com/user/Notaflatland/comments/
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u/Notaflatland -7 points at 1631813542.000000
That kind of black and white thinking is exactly what is going wrong with themotte. Good lord. There are no sane places left here are there?
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u/noactuallyitspoptart 23 points at 1631841633.000000
Look, I’ve worked at the graduate level on social epistemology as part of my wider work on philosophy of economics (and to a lesser extent political science/theory): /u/dgerard isn’t doing black and white thinking here, he’s just recognising that the consequence of creating an online space which is *incredibly* welcoming of fascistic rhetoric is that fascists will turn up in *droves* I think it’s incredibly naive of you to point to one or two “good” posts without placing them in that wider context
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u/Notaflatland -1 points at 1631842773.000000
There are a lot of good posts, otherwise I wouldn't bother. There are also some pretty nasty takes. I mostly try to ignore them, but sometimes it is too much and I need to vent about how terrible some posters are. So let's say you create a safe space where ANY type of discourse is allowed (especially if there aren't many spaces like that left). Eventually the bad will start to crowd out the good as people are driven there as other avenues of communication and expression are closed off to them. Then the remaining good leaves or is driven out and all you're left with is a pond full of bad.
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u/noactuallyitspoptart 19 points at 1631844165.000000
So what you *don’t want to do* is allow a space where “any kind of discourse is allowed” I really don’t care if this or that person has something smart to say now and again about this or that issue: inevitably if you allow that as a social norm, as you point out, “the bad crowds out the good” But we knew that already, and you could have seen it a long time ago before /r/TheMotte even existed Maybe someone (e.g. gwern) has something superficially clever to say about micro-dosing acid or whateverthefuck, fine, but what gets extrapolated from that is that maybe fascism is fine too: if you have a space where those things are placed side by side people reinforce each other’s stupidity because after all if these smart people are saying one thing the other thing they’re saying makes sense That’s much more interesting as a dynamic of social epistemology because it illustrates the fact that testimony - and judgement about whose testimony is valuable - plays a huge role in what people believe You’re right that /r/TheMotte is a problem, but isolating those “good” posts misses the point: even the good ones are tainted by the fact that they’re written for this so-called community and should therefore earn your suspicion if you’re not already an expert in the field they’re talking about. It’s very likely that even the so-called good posts are either gaming that system for their own ends or naively imagining that they have expertise they don’t actually possess, but doing so eloquently Suspicion is and should be the epistemological basis of daily life in politics in the 21st century, that’s just how it is
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u/blakestaceyprime 18 points at 1631849868.000000
> Maybe someone (e.g. gwern) has something superficially clever to say about micro-dosing acid or whateverthefuck, Microdosing: Making Drugs Uncool Since 2011.
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u/Notaflatland -2 points at 1631845730.000000
I'm a very skeptical person, no need to worry on that account. Yes testimonials are indeed a powerful force and drive a ton of spending as all advertisers and business owners have known for centuries. I fully expect for the TheMotte to go all bad eventually. In my unscientific and profoundly anecdotal estimations the posts have shifted over the 50% bad mark only relatively recently, the last 2 years or so. I don't necessarily believe that a good idea or analysis can be "tainted" by proximity to a bad one. Maybe this isn't "black and white thinking" but it is certainly throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I think the crux of the matter is that you don't think there is any baby in that bathtub. Or, if there is still a baby (to torture the metaphor further) the baby is tainted and should be tossed. For the time being I think there are still some babies worth saving. I mean this is 'sneerclub' so I don't know what exactly I was expecting here; but the level of malice you ascribe to the people still posting good faith, interesting non-hateful ideas and theories on TheMotte is wrong.
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u/noactuallyitspoptart 16 points at 1631847189.000000
Throwing the baby out with the bath water might be a good idea when it comes to /r/TheMotte There are so many better things to read out there than the occasional “good” post on that subreddit Why not just let that one go?
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u/wokeupabug 15 points at 1631848075.000000
Talking to "Rationalists": Rationalist: Science is good, it tells us whites are inherently superior. Critic: Wtf is this racist shit? Rationalist: Racist? What are you talking about? I'm saying science is good! Critic: Uh, what was that bit about whites being inherently superior? Rationalist: You can hardly criticize us for that, when we're saying science is good. I mean, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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u/noactuallyitspoptart 13 points at 1631864142.000000
“Evolution stops above the neck” or “evolution doesn’t stop above the neck” is still my favourite sarcastic locution justifying scientific racism It’s bold, it’s pithy, and completely misses the point Between this and the UK govt. reintroducing Imperial weights and measures as a gag, I think I’m gonna just deal in absolutes and read my William James/Bradley book in the park all day and get drunk with my young friends when they get off work after
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u/Notaflatland -2 points at 1631874478.000000
What you're describing here is literally the motte and bailey fallacy for which the sub is named. No true ~~scottsman~~ rational person would make that argument. It is sad to see rational discourse about the nature of reality slowly hijacked by scumbags. But to call all posters there white supremacists is 100% false. It is like when people go on cable news and paint reddit as a hive of scum and villains. Overbroad brushes help no one.
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u/reform_borg 17 points at 1631882733.000000
Some of them are white supremacists. Some of them are people who have, for whatever reason, decided they're ok with participating in a space with white supremacists. It's one or the other. I know it can feel more complicated than that. I don't think it is, though.
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u/Notaflatland -1 points at 1631885203.000000
Reddit has terrible people on it from all walks of life. Racists, creeps, killers, bootlicking fascists. You're on reddit, you must be ok associating yourself with those people. You're choosing to participate is a space that harbors them. Can't you see how insane that sounds? How about if you're in central park and someone starts ranting about Jews? Are you terrible for enjoying the nice day and having a picnic as the hate preacher walks past? Just ignore him. You're not a nazi because you hear a hateful thought in public.
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u/reform_borg 17 points at 1631885641.000000
I'm not saying you're terrible. I don't think you're terrible. I think you are making a choice, and that at some point you are going to decide to make a different and better choice, and the main beneficiary of that better choice will be you. And that part of the reason you're not currently making that choice is that you think you can fix this space, but I'm telling you you can't. How many Nazis have to hang out in the park before you decide, "you know what, no matter how beautiful this park is, it's just not beautiful enough"? I think if you're having to consider that type of question, you know the answer.
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u/yamin8r 2 points at 1632518658.000000
Unlike the other person responding to you I do think you’re terrible lmao
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u/DELETED 8 points at 1632007985.000000
[deleted]
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u/Notaflatland -1 points at 1632013212.000000
By participating on reddit you legitimize "the bad ones".
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u/DELETED 7 points at 1632015705.000000
[deleted]
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u/dgerard 6 points at 1632145123.000000
look through his comment history, he thinks he's hiding his uh power level
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u/Notaflatland -3 points at 1632016376.000000
Stupid people think of reddit as a monolithic entity that is culpable as a whole. The same exact thing you're saying about TheMotte. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "we did it reddit" in reference to the disastrous hunt for the boston bombers and similar reddit driven fiascoes. Or redditors are all neckbeard women hating basement dwelling nerds etc...I come across these comments and their like every single time I'm on reddit in fact.
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u/DELETED 10 points at 1632019359.000000
[deleted]
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u/Notaflatland -3 points at 1632055845.000000
Ah yes, everyone is a nazi regardless of their personal actions or beliefs. Does looking at the world as one big huge pot of evil people ever get tiring for you?
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u/Notaflatland -2 points at 1631848145.000000
I honestly have not found another space that produces the sheer volume of content on current affairs. Sure it is 63% dross...but the 37% that is better beats the shit out of the same 4 talking points you read and see everywhere else.
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u/NegativeTwist6 11 points at 1631853787.000000
> I honestly have not found another space that produces the sheer volume of content on current affairs. Quantity has, uh, a quality all its own.
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u/noactuallyitspoptart 11 points at 1631863779.000000
I would counter that with “quality over quantity” Making up fake numbers for what’s quality doesn’t really help The facts from social epistemology, as I have explained, are much more complicated albeit easy to understand If you really want to go there, I discussed this in an essay which is public (framed as a discussion of trans rights in the public version, but you can ignore the framing and read the essay itself) https://irrationallyspeaking.home.blog/2019/08/22/stock-beckett/
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u/finfinfin 9 points at 1631864582.000000
Have you looked behind a horse lately?
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u/dgerard 12 points at 1631863363.000000
> the level of malice you ascribe to the people still posting good faith, interesting non-hateful ideas and theories on TheMotte is wrong. it's a fucking Nazi sub started by Nazis, that's a matter of objective fact, jfc. Your attempted whitewashing is as odious as it is blitheringly stupid
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u/dgerard 12 points at 1631863547.000000
> There are a lot of good posts, otherwise I wouldn't bother. at this point this is a problem with your taste, not with us
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u/MarxBroshevik 11 points at 1632032662.000000
Not "any" type of discourse was allowed. I was banned for simply posting about why Marxism is correct.
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u/DELETED 0 points at 1633016214.000000
All of your posts: "We are objectively correct about these opinions. Yes, we're making normative claims that cannot be proved but we are definitely objectively right. Nope. No use debating, because everything we believe is true" These are the same people that run a subreddit called "badphilosophy". Delusional.
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u/MarxBroshevik 4 points at 1633062441.000000
What normative claim are you referring to?
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u/DELETED 1 points at 1633193536.000000
It's your shtick both here and on substack, surrounding your points with claims about objectivity and fact. Ben Shapiro level irritating, and you will never change anyone's mind this way. I can see why you get banned. That and making your entire identity revolve around one author who you deem as an infallible source of truth. Snore. While I'm at it, let me mention another one of your self-defeating gimmicks. You crap all over Rationalism while at the same time attacking Scott et al for *not* being Rationalist *enough*. Just imagine if Scott called himself a conservative commentator or something and ditched the Rationalist label... then your little routine of pointing out that his views are not very Rationalist would be useless. What would you do then? Don't tell me though. I'm sure it'll be just as insanely obnoxious as everything else you do.
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u/MarxBroshevik 3 points at 1633223258.000000
If Scott ditched the Rationalist label I think that might be an improvement. It does seem weird to claim to be a "Rationalist" while blatantly misrepresenting the political outgroup and avoiding any debate over the matter. Marx is not an infallible source of truth, but if you're going to be arguing about Marx (which Scott does) then you should be charitable to Marx and not misrepresent his views. As I've shown, Scott misrepresents Marx's views, e.g.: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/book-review-global-economic-history#comment-1795464 If calmly showing people evidence does not lead to a change in their mind then that's unfortunate but it also shows a greater disfunction at the heart of the Rationalist community.
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u/thebenshapirobot 1 points at 1633193548.000000
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this: >If you believe that the Jewish state has a right to exist, then you must allow Israel to transfer the Palestinians and the Israeli-Arabs from Judea, Samaria, Gaza and Israel proper. It’s an ugly solution, but it is the only solution… It’s time to stop being squeamish. ***** ^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: healthcare, civil rights, dumb takes, climate, etc.) [^More ^About ^Ben ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/wiki/index) ^| [^Feedback ^& ^Discussion: ^r/AuthoritarianMoment ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment) ^| [^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/)
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u/my_back_pages 38 points at 1631779958.000000

themotte has always been shit, and it’s shit through and through. just because some dunce can open a thesaurus while he’s openly endorsing white nationalism doesn’t make his post “a nugget of gold”. sometimes i’ll see a post so fucking moronic in a different subreddit (eg: my own city’s sub) that it just reeks of sweaty racist ancap nerd energy, check their posting history and yep, a motte poster!

it’s always been bad and it always will be. it’s their whole reason for existing. leave it and dont look back. those people are literally unfuckable.

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u/Notaflatland 5 points at 1631797915.000000
For example there is currently a post deconstructing an article about the Theranos fraud that is very good and makes solid points. So yes there are good posts there.
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u/textlossarcade 12 points at 1631983937.000000
Why the fuck are you swimming in a sewer panning for anything though? Like are the points there unavailable other places?
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u/Notaflatland 1 points at 1631797022.000000
"sweaty racist ancap nerd energy" This is good literature!
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u/Soyweiser 23 points at 1631785959.000000

I forgot to mention, you do know there was an attempt to try and save themotte before right? A group of people made a new subreddit, sadly I have forgotten the name, themotte without the focus on IQ shit or something. I do now wonder how they are doing.

e: right /r/theschism but guess you already knew (as you posted there). But it does seem the subreddit is mostly dead, that is what you get if you remove the CW from the CW subreddit.

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u/Notaflatland 2 points at 1631797166.000000
Yeah I tried move over there but it just didn't have the user base.
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u/reform_borg 10 points at 1631839773.000000

It’s a problem, but it’s not really your problem. You can’t fix it and I recommend shortening the amount of time you spend trying.

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u/birdcontent 7 points at 1631755084.000000

and?

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