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Reading this sub has made me put an old extremely weird interaction into context (https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/rmqcuz/reading_this_sub_has_made_me_put_an_old_extremely/)
78

At a friend’s birthday party a few years back, I wound up trapped in a conversation about whether you could call someone racist. It started with voter ID laws, but the position wound up being defended to “A politician who courts the opinions and votes of racists (self-identified), who acts in their interests, and consistently gets elected on the platforms that most racists support cannot be called a racist”.

I remember thinking at the time that at that point, what did it even matter if he was secretly truly not racist in his heart. I was, however, quite drunk at the time and wandered off to talk to other people.

What I found weird was that this guy was apparently fine with hanging out with all these trans people and I just kinda assumed he was progressive of some sort. He was part of an older polycule (as is tradition).

I know he definitely subbed to LessWrong and SSC, but I didn’t really think much of it. But apparently, after reading a lot of posts here, it’s a thing that you shouldn’t call racists racist because it shuts down “the conversation”. I don’t think we actually reached the point of “I’m talking to this politician” because we were discussing electoral political strategy.

At least locally there’s some following, though all the ones I personally know are very uncharismatic when it comes to espousing these beliefs. At least two of them live on welfare while arguing for the abolition of welfare (and democracy). One of them firmly believes that if they write an enormous essay espousing the values of centrist liberalism as though us dirty lefties haven’t heard of it before, they will eventually convince their (hotter) friends of its merits.

One of them firmly believes that if they write an enormous essay espousing the values of centrist liberalism as though us dirty lefties haven’t heard of it before, they will eventually convince their (hotter) friends of its merits.

perfection

At least two of them live on welfare while arguing for the abolition of welfare (and democracy).

Is this critique really all that different from the “you criticize society yet you participate in society?” Is it any different from “you criticize capitalism yet you have a cell phone?”

All three statements seem different to me.

SOrt of a similar situation tnight. A big thing about this sub is a sort of superiority/ dunking on rationalists. Popular rationalists are often STEM and the people here are literally often PHDs in fields like anthropology.

I don’t have much education so don’t have the confidence of either group and it can be weird to get stuck in thr middlr.

>Popular rationalists are often STEM You mean, "they could not write code to save their lives, but they LARP as coders because that's the aesthetic their sugar daddies like?" But a part for that, I don't really think that this is a "STEM vs humanities" thing. It is more a "guys who read something and are trying to look at actual evidence (including past scholarship) vs people who think they can deduce the world and rebuild science *ex novo*". I am at the interection of data science and economics (so what seems to be the very foundation of Rationalism, and what 50% of Rationalists talk about respectively), and oh boy if their opinions as atrocious. It is no wonder that they fell for vulgar Bayesianism, since it is essentially a buzzword that at this point can mean anything involving iterations but for some reason still gives an allure of "new, exciting, never done before!" to people not working in the field (also, in their bayesianism as practically used, they seem to feel allowed to pull conditionals out of their ass, so it means that they can rationalize whatever they want to believe anyway). It is also no wonder that they fell for some sort of praxeology, because it's the only way to economics purely from very simple first principles and never look out of your window (or even having somebody poking holes through your proof at a conference). It is not that I reject their approach because they did not consider the work of some Brazilian Marxist-Existentialist philosopher on the subject of mortality as experienced in a favela before writing, I reject their work *because I do the same exact thing they claim to be doing, but if my work was even 10% as self-centered, unfalsifiable and unsunstatiated as their, I would be laughed out of the room*.
> You mean, "they could not write code to save their lives, but they LARP as coders because that's the aesthetic their sugar daddies like?" "The people I dislike are also stupid" is too convenient a theory. Some rationalists really are good at programming or whatever STEM field they work in—I know because I've met some of them. Or to pick an example: [Qiaochu Yuan](https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/olmwib/rationalist_writes_lengthy_twitter_thread_about/) is competent at mathematics, even if he is a rationalist and has some dumb views. They aren't all Yudkowskys.
A lot of them are programmers. There was a comment on here from a while back that I liked which really laid out a possible connection between rationalism and programming. Basically, it said that programming is a job that's almost entirely about solving unambiguously posed problems using logic from first principles, usually with relatively little domain-specific knowledge required about the context of the problem. It's pretty accessible for a precocious newbie to play around with, and relatively little formal training is required; some of the best at it started as kids and are entirely self-taught. There may be disagreements between practitioners about the usefulness or elegance of different approaches, but the facts of what programs do are rarely in doubt. Problems are generally a matter of finding the single logical flaw or bug that prevents the code from working perfectly. When you have a problem you can't solve, or you want to brush up your skills in a new area, you generally do it by reading blogs and comment threads written by anonymous (frequently) weirdos. You don't have to worry about their credibility because you can test everything on your own. Often the weirder the weirdo, the better their code will be (due to more dedication to programming, selection effects, the culture or whatever). Your work can affect millions of people as easily as it affects a few, which is heady. Programming is so useful that you can be paid handsomely for it as long as you demonstrate some competence, even if you're self-taught with no formal credentials. This makes programming an attractive and exciting job, but also means it basically teaches and venerates intellectual habits that would make you a crackpot in any other domain. There's also my theory that a lot of the rationalist types want to be rich and (consciously or subconsciously) valorize wealthy VCs as models for emulation. As such, they place value not on deep expertise, but on being able to quickly learn just enough about topics to gamble on them, and make a net profit over all the gambles.
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Eh I'm a programmer too and much of it feels fairly on point to me. What did you disagree with?
Well the prominent figures in the movement are mostly like Yudkowsky, and as far as representation among the follower goes it's not clear whether STEM is over or under represented considering the location (bay area) and the topic (futurist nerd shit).
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Let's assume you are in good faith, what do you exactly want? A review of every 10k words essays Siskind or Yud wrote where I point out every single unsupported statement, every unwarranted generalization, any misunderstanding of the conceptual tools they use and every semantic three-card trick they try to pull on the reader? Because that would incredibly long and frankly boring. Why instead don't you tell me why you think their work (or a particular subset of their work of your choice) could live up on academic standards and we discuss that?
Not in good faith, no
Well, good on you to admit it, I guess.
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Numbers or at least two (2) links to scientific papers, which dont even have to be related, because as long as you dont mention in your [epistemic status] that you have not actually fully read them, nobody else will.
I'm in STEM and think these people are fools.
I think in order to be annoyed enough at rationalist to post on this sub, you have to be in one of the fields they butcher, hence why this place is like half annoyed STEM people and half annoyed philosophers
And don't forget the occasional geneticist! Yikes
You’re not stuck in any middle, far more people on this sub have a STEM than a humanities background
I have a PhD in Neuroscience (Biophysics technically), I code, I’ve done multiple types of computational work, I’ve done alot of wet lab/bench work. Dunking on rationalists is a mainstay of the joy in ny life because they are literally dumb as fuck about how the world actually works. There is nothing more pathetic than a rationalist with convictions. I would never want to have a drink with one of them, much less depend on them to help with basic tasks like pitching a tent or building a campfire or a 100 other things - and I have the misfortune of having been in all kinds of situations with these types. Nothing is more depressing than their company.
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> Big Yud has no actual STEM qualifications You take that back. Greater Yud has spent a *lifetime* thinking about Terminator 2: Judgement Day.
I’m a noted stemlordess and rationalists and liberal arts PhDs annoy me equally excuse me 😇 Rationalists are only 'STEM' if by that you mean 'computer touchers' (which is how most people use the term anyway). There are very few rationalist scientists, I guess because if you’re a scientist you tend to be more focused on empirical data, and rationalism is founded on the idea that you can solve all the world’s problems using just your huge brain. I’ve noticed a tendency toward similar big brain thinking with people trained in the less empirical parts of the humanities, they just tend to come to different conclusions. Though I’ve noticed that among my acquaintances, the people who started believing ludicrous antivax conspiracy theories this year are almost exclusively either tech bros or people with humanities degrees, so maybe the horseshoe theory is real. Anyway I’m drunk and I don’t know where I was going with this.
Don't confuse STEM with $TEM: * $ (USD) * Techbroery * Engineer's Disease * Bayesing (verb)
My experience with specifically engineers is that they consistently believe that they are much smarter than other people. The belief that your discipline is superior to others comes off as very STEM to me. Rationalist communities like ar/TheMotte have a total disregard for any work done in fields like sociology, anthropology, economics (kind of), psychology, etc. It seems like their MO is basically that computer engineers are better equipped to solve all existing problems. Maybe it would be better framed as rationalists believe in intelligence more than knowledge and most everyone else believes the opposite.
> liberal arts Mathematics and the natural sciences are liberal arts.
in my native language liberal arts is synonymous with humanities and that's what i meant🤷🏻‍♀️
oh interesting—what language (if I may)? I find the ways in which these are divvied up differently across languages really interesting. (e.g., Geisteswissenschaften, les sciences humaines, etc.)
At this point if someone says something stupid I just ask them if they’d fuck David Hume and if they say no both them and their ideas are a lost cause
The fuck are you talking about, if you’re not into Hume you’re a dumbass?
Pretty much.
I like David Hume, my graduate degree was heavily influenced by Hume and I got it from his alma mater, but don’t be fucking stupid mate: he is no be-all or end-all, to the point that there are *strong* reasons not only to reject but to dislike his arguments, even if I don’t go down that route myself
Hume is up there with Locke for me on men that deserve sexual favours. The boldfaced empiricism may not be the be-all, but it certainly is the end-all of philosophy which has in large part refused to reject rationalism and for that reason has been left behind by the sciences.
I don’t particularly like Locke, but ok Regardless, since it’s evident your’e making the same tired “philosophy got left behind, rationalism bad” argument which is not only ahistorical about the present state of things, but ahistorical about Early Modern philosophy - “rationalist” philosophers such as Leibniz, Spinoza, and Descartes never rejected empirical method, I think we can leave it here that you’re just blowing smoke up your own ass. Tone it down and have a little humility about how much you know.
???? You’re confused. One need not reject empirical methodology to be a rationalist. But one does need to accept empirical observation as more foundational than reason to be an empiricist.
What are you trying to achieve here? It stands that there are good reasons to reject or dislike Hume - including on grounds that he was an insufficient or indeed poor empiricist in his philosophy, his history, and his anthropology, and those reasons are given by empiricists. Regardless, this really isn’t a very sophisticated historical view: rationalism vs empiricism is barely 101 stuff, and doesn’t really reflect what’s interesting about whether or not we do or do not like Hume. If it isn’t clear: I’m trying to say you strike me as having vastly overstated the evidence you have for your evaluations here.

Why are you telling us this?

Locked down and felt mildly social, so posted what I thought was a relevant experience. \*shrug\*
boo

Cool story bro. Next time, more dragons.

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No, just nursing a hangover.
Lockdown hangovers are the worst…i always wake up wondering if its covid for a few hours before i remember why i feel so shitty