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Listen, I get the basis of Sneer Club. The whole thing these people are doing is absolutely thinly veiled white supremacist accelerationism. They have to a tee ended up with the unabomber’s philosopher, added in nothing more intelligent than the Tic Tac Toe sequence of War Games, and started a shitty little cult. I think the world cares less about what they do than what even Steven Pinker does.

But I have to admit a basic percentage of my hatred toward them will always be jealousy. Why? Because it is clear to me that everything in terms of society and community has been irreparably shattered by capitalism and libertarianism, alienation and commodification, until what’s left is that the closest thing you could ever, ever get to a family in terms of spending time with people you love is a start-up company. Yes, I’ve got the COVID blues and I’m sort of saying the Devil won. But humor me here and let me go a little goth.

I’m bitter that for whatever years these delusional pretentious shits get the whole shebang: religion, prayer, parent figures, practically arranged marriages, and they never really toil, completely and utterly spoiled. They spend the whole time just vibe-fucking each other and believing they are the chosen few Top Mormons. They live their lives as if they are on the verge of inventing fully immersive Augmented Reality glasses when they haven’t so much as improved the flavor of Cheez Whiz. They perpetually reinvent the basics of philosophy and political science and for no reason give it a new word - just to get high off their own fucking fumes again.

I’m just saying that as a fucking delusion, it seems desirable. I can see why people are willing to go quasi-psychotic for it, and every time I read the monologues of people who left, I always think, yeah, but you would’ve stabbed an innocent in an alley if it kept the whole delusion going, wouldn’t you?

The part of myself I see in them makes me sickest of all.

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Yeah these guys are all def living off like 20k a year in one of their investment properties. I used to live with a bitcoin millionaire landlord dude who was in this same mileue and he was honestly kind of poor gentry. Had passive income and property to cover rent and that's about it. Basically lived like a pauper and spent all his time getting high and playing WoW. Truly arrested development.

First, tag serious posts as nsfw

Second, some delusions are worse than others, but all are essentially bad. Waxing poetic about the pleasures of rationalism is a bit like waxing poetic about the pleasures of being stabbed vis a vis being shot.

Third, don’t think the rationalists are much happier than the average bear. I can’t speak for every member of the rationalist community, but when I read Siskind, Aaronson, and Yudkowsky, I don’t see happy people. They often seem defensive, insecure, and angry, no matter how much money they have.–The bay area rationalist community as a whole has some serious downsides. While the bay area is beautiful, it’s also crowded and expensive. You can make an awful lot of money and still barely scrape by. (You are not correct to say they don’t work hard. Maybe Yudkowsky is so well-funded he can watch anime all day, but most people aren’t Yudkowsky. He requires an entire ecosystem of normal people to support him.) There’s also a number of cults, predators, and abusers in the community. Read, for instance, Ziz’s account of emotional abuse by Anna Salomon, in “Net Negative”. Similarly read the postmortem for “Dragon Army”, and do a search here for “suicide” and “sexual misconduct”. There’s bad shit going down.

Fourth, and finally, you can get all the best parts of rationalism without being a rationalist. If you want the sublimity of religion literally take a hike and enjoy nature. If you want close bonds with people get off the internet and bond with people. Etc.

It sounds like you are going through a rough patch, friend. I hope things improve. Be well.

u/noactuallyitspoptart Hopefully edited to your satisfaction?

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I'm not sure that's correct. A sizeable percentage of the rank-and-file are software engineers, often at pretty big companies. Those people are, objectively, very successful. But they *perceive* themselves as being losers. Rather than looking at their enormous material prosperity as success, they see the people pointing out that others haven't shared that success as viciously attacking them specifically and construct entire identities around the fear those attacks will succeed (this, of course, is exactly what they accuse their opponents of doing, because every right-wing movement ever is based on projection).
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I understand the others, but I really don't think Scott is an alt-right apologetic or neoreactionary. He seems to detest them. He wrote one of the most well-known anti-neoreaction pieces back in 2013: https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-faq/ I'm aware this subreddit is largely dedicated to mock him, so others here aren't going to say this, but whatever anyone wants to mock him for, I don't think alt-right or neoreactionary are fair descriptions.
He's admitted as much privately in emails that were leaked some time ago. There's a thread about those [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/lm36nk/old_scott_siskind_emails_which_link_him_to_the/gntraiv/). Including, you know, just straight up saying he wants to do apologia for reactionary views that he likes, he wants to use his platform to smuggle in those aforementioned reactionary views, and wanting to foster goodwill from the reactionary community. You're simply extending him good faith that he in no way deserves. This is understandable, given the fact that Scott bends over backwards to avoid being honest about his true beliefs and uses the facade of being some impartial truthseeker to trick those who don't critically examine his words, his (in)actions, and the community he fosters, but it's all ultimately out there. It's always been present in the subtext of his posts, who he associates with, and whose views he engages with charitably and whose views he engages (or refuses to engage) with in bad faith. It's just now we also have him stating it plainly.
As a disclosure, I don't use this subreddit. I agree with some of the criticisms of the community, and especially the increasingly radicalized and alt-right-leaning forks of it, but I disagree with just about everything else (besides Yudkowsky sometimes saying really bizarre and ridiculous things). I've read the message before, and read it again now. Given the full context of the overall conversation they were having (this is only one message in the conversation), and the context of everything he's ever written publicly (including the anti-reactionary FAQ I listed above), I don't consider it as evidence of alignment with the alt-right/far-right. I don't consider him a neoreaction apologist. I don't consider him as ever acting in bad faith, and don't think anything he wrote here is inconsistent with anything he's said publicly. This message would be irresponsible of him to write publicly, in this form, without far more elaboration, but this is just a thing he once said as part of a private conversation. >Including, you know, just straight up saying he wants to do apologia for reactionary views that he likes, he wants to use his platform to smuggle in those aforementioned reactionary views, and wanting to foster goodwill from the reactionary community. You're simply extending him good faith that he in no way deserves. I think there's a "two movies on one screen" thing going on, here. "Two movies on one screen" itself exemplifies this: Scott Adams is, in my view, a weird, self-aggrandizing narcissist who claims to be impartial while clearly being a major supporter and propagandist for Trump and Trumpism. Yet, he occasionally says things I find interesting, like "two movies on one screen". This is pretty much what Scott Alexander is saying in that message. This is the divide between these sections of the left. In the SneerClub/RationalWiki section, Adams is a fool and/or a terrible person to be mercilessly and sarcastically mocked, berated, and considered persona non grata. In the grayer section of the left, Adams is someone to be disagreed with and possibly disliked, and yet still treated holistically and charitably, just like nearly anyone else. SC/RW is the left's internal version of internet neoreaction: reaction against the increasingly promulgated notion of there being a "mistake theory vs. conflict theory" dichotomy. Someone not only claiming to be a mistake theorist but claiming there to be such a thing can only be a sophist trying to smuggle immorality. You and I probably share many or possibly even all of the same values, but we drastically differ in our perceptions of reality.

I’m more jealous of Ted than the sneerees. At least he had the focus to complete a project.

edit: my undone and unbegun projects are in minecraft

hey yall i dont normally read reddit anymore and was a little on the suicidal side when i wrote this. remember to get out and see people, exercise and drink water. I am doing that today and feel better. Sorry if I don’t read anyone’s responses but I think the internet was a mistake. best of luck all

Hey buddy. Sorry to hear you're going through some shit. You've had good days before. You *will* have good days again.

I get insular wealthy smarty-pants subculture envy. I grew up with the provincial autodidact’s fantasy of being adopted by a secretive intellectual elite. But there’s a damned good novel that explores the dynamic in question - it’s called The Secret History and the plot features multiple gruesome murders.

I think the majority of sneerers are here for some catharsis after feeling the sting of disillusionment. Rationalists and effective altruists told us they were literally going to save the world; to say they over-promised and under-delivered is an understatement. They deserve thorough, granular mockery.

[deleted]
True, thanks.
> I think the majority of sneerers are here for some catharsis after feeling the sting of disillusionment. idk i just like seeing the dumb things people say
The “promise” was always nonsense—much like a corporate rebrand via greenwashing. It was only ever used as a hint of honey so as to mask the taste of rancid fish. It is the same old trick used to build support for grotesque ideologies: you first create a palatable lure in order to begin the process of indoctrination.
> the provincial autodidact's fantasy of being adopted by a secretive intellectual elite As a country boy from the middle of nowhere I feel seeeen.

You do realize they’re not actually happy right? The rationalists and their capitalist fellow travelers are fucking furious that they won and the world is still shit, and they can’t ever come to admit that there’s something wrong with their ideology. That’s why they have to push out and attack others, if they sit still too long they’ll be consumed by that gnawing emptiness in their souls.

Also, their community is rumored to have several active sexual predators, which is obviously bad for their quality of life.

It’s quite a pathetic outcome and yet they continue to feign triumphalism as they are simultaneously hoisting themselves on their own petard. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-for-the-super-rich

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Very fair.

Honestly, some of what I’ve seen of the rationalist community seems like a particularly lousy coping strategy–for instance, convincing themselves that they’ll get resurrected by AI god, and those simulations are totally them, honest. I’m not very jealous of that. It seems like they can’t deal with the real world, and so make up some bullshit (“AI go FOOM! We’ll abolish death! Everything is getting better! In the future, humans will span the stars and last until the heat death of the universe!”).

They have to a tee ended up with the unabomber’s philosophy

That comparison is pretty unfair to Ted

You got to hand it to ~~isis~~ Ted, but at least he wouldn't join the cryptocurrency/nft bandwagon. (I also don't think they ended up with the unabombers philosophy, bit of a weird thing to say about a group of transhumanists vs an ecofascist, sure both are anti-progressives but that is about it).
I'm suddenly reminded of how there was a lengthy bit in Ray Kurzweil's *The Age of Spiritual Machines* that boiled down to "you got to hand it to Ted". Like, Kurzweil even imagined a future where the incarcerated Kaczynski wrote, by longhand, an inspired and incisive defense of Luddism. He also projected that the decade from 1999 through 2009 would be one of uninterrupted economic good times.
Urgh, one of these days, I should put more effort into actually reading teds manifesto and not just a few excerpts. As apparently it is relevant to Rationalism.

Rationalists may be silly but they’re not the Unabomber…you can tell by the lack of mail bombs.

Your view of who rationalists are (and how happy they are) seems quite distorted.

IDK, just like with most cults most followers are not very well off. Ziz’s semi-homeless disciples don’t seem to be doing well at all, for instance.

Our society is like a heavily sedated late stage dementia patient in a hospice. It is conceptually appropriate to see such behaviors as those of dying braincells.

I dont fucking understand this subreddit lol

Hope you never will. Flee now, with your sanity intact.
I will remain
[Fool of a 186-13191312](https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/28861579.jpg) Just be warned there is no way to unlearn things, and you will start seeing signs of Rationalism in more and more places. 'Ow god, Musk is infected!'
Yes master🙇
Dont make this weird we didnt even agree on a safeword.
Based.
Schizo posting is the fun good times style for all the young people put on the town.

What did I just read ?

Happiness is a cultural myth anyways. I wouldn’t worry about it. You’re only supposed to be happy now and then, and it’s very fleeting. So enjoy it when it comes.

ROFL to

They live their lives as if they are on the verge of inventing fully immersive Augmented Reality glasses when they haven’t so much as improved the flavor of Cheez Whiz.

(except their ambitions are even greater than inventing some piece of cool tech; they think they are going to put a bridle on god)

I think you’ve touched on something. I wouldn’t call it envy exactly but yeah, these people are aspie-nerds who despite their psychological deficiencies have built themselves a supportive little community and that is really one of the best things to have in life, I am kind of envious of that. It’s a nice life if you can buy the ideology.

That’s the thing about these cults for middle-class educated people (see also: Rajneeshis), they do have attractive features, that’s how they grow themselves.

It's not really that nice of a life. I don't know how many people in the Rationalist world are actually on the autistic spectrum, but I am, and growing up with it sucked. Since I also tested into gifted programs, I adopted the identity of "smartest little boy in the world" to cope with not being able to relate to other kids and their interests/how they saw the world and made friends/join cliques. (Oh, and this is when I got interested in Libertarianism for the first time. Now I'm a DemSoc). But then it turns out that social skills are like any other kind of skill and I could learn them, and after I learned them in high school I became friends with other people who weren't bitter nerds and in the process grew out of being one myself. I suspect that autistic or not most Rationalists never really did and think well into their twenties and thirties that their intellectual firepower is the sole source of their self-worth far beyond the point where anyone else cares about it. Like, I could imagine a life where I held onto my old worldview and never gave it up because I became a software guy and made a ton of money and surrounded myself with other people who also held it, and it sounds like hell.

Wait what’s the mormom thing about? These peeps are Mormon?

More like an analogy to how some religions have a self-identifying 'elect.' Jehovahs Witnesses for example go in on the 144,000 saved business, and people can just 'know' if they are one of them. Some Calvinist sects do it too, can't recall if Mormons do it off hand.

I’m honestly envious of people that can be so confident while being wrong. I couch almost all my language in “maybes” and “almosts” constantly, and also fawn if I’m talked to in a mildly stern voice.

they aren’t, broadly, that successful. peter thiel only has so many toes to suck. the rest are just your average big brain redditors who melt down whenever they see a black person in a video game