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A low-grade antimeme is merely boring. A medium-grade antimeme is invisible in plain sight. A high-grade antimeme is worst of all; you can attend an entire college course about one, come out the end thinking “man, that was a good course”, get an A+, and still not get it at all.

The Bible says - Revelations 22:18 - that if anyone changes the Bible in any way even by a single word they will be punished with eternal torture. And yet nobody’s mental image of an angel, nor any popular artistic depiction of an angel, has anything in common with the Biblical description. This is the highest-grade antimeme I feel comfortable using as an example; if you don’t see the fnords they can’t eat you.

Ah, yes, Siskind is in possession of “higher grade antimemes” that he “doesn’t feel comfortable” using as an example in this post. Anybody care to guess whatever on earth he might be referring to?

It’s impressive how many facts he knows, but he warps them into Jenga towers of speculation that can’t possibly be true, almost compulsively, without bothering to justify himself.

Damn, Scott, you are so close.

Seriously, it was so fucking jarring to read that and then just see the post itself go on for paragraphs and paragraphs. TLP might have been crassly overindulgent in his writing but Scott's notice of that didn't keep him from doing *the same damn thing.*

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That post isn't about the antimemetics division at all what the hell
*that's exactly what the post wants you to think*
I assumed when drafting the OP that the number of people who hadn't read it already from camping his blog _yet_ would read it anyway due to this post would be negligible https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/book-review-sadly-porn
I dunno man, you have a weird view of /r/SneerClub if you think even the mods were ever actually keeping up with the blog religiously
my point exactly: I chose to neglect the link because I assumed nobody actually gave a shit to read the 11-thousand-word source (and that the small set of people who _did_ would have already read it)
Right, but the corollary would be “but I also have no idea what this random quote is or where it came from, why should I care?”
That is a good point; I expect the average SneerClub reader would have a lot of ambiguity as to which "Siskind" we might be quoting recent posts from
There isn’t even any indication that it’s a recent post, or anything indicating what it’s about, I had no idea what was going on or what you were talking about until I did a decent amount of copy pasting and clicking on google and reading myself
That is also valid; my immediately-previous comment was a bit disingenuous.

Anybody care to guess whatever on earth he might be referring to?

If you’re unfamiliar with the concept of what an “antimeme” is, it’s … well, the opposite of a meme. If you understand the idea of a meme as “an idea that spreads quickly”, then an antimeme is an idea that resists being spread. Something you can see every day, and yet never remember or notice.

Siskind didn’t come up with the term, he’s just using it in this book review. If you click through the link he provides, you get to the SCP wiki (a collaborative fiction community where people write stories that center around an organization that maintains a collection of unusual objects with strange, supernatural properties). The “There is no Antimemetics Division” is a fairly popular, rather entertaining series of short stories that play around with the idea of entities and objects with antimemetic properties.

He gives angels as a relatively accessible idea of an antimeme; in popular culture they are very comforting humanlike beings with wings and halos, but in the original writings, they were almost universally terrifying, sometimes almost unhuman monsters. As if the Biblical description of angels aggressively resists popularization.

The reference to “fnord” is also an example of a literary antimeme.

Presumably he could come up with other examples – David Foster Wallace’s “This is Water”, the movie They Live, which satirizes consumerist society, and perhaps some other examples that might be increasingly more controversial or at least less accessible, and for that reason he feels uncomfortable mentioning them.

At any rate, this is where Siskind switches from explaining the idea of an antimeme, to comparing the book he was reviewing to one. That the author has some idea that they want to express, but can’t manage to communicate it because the writing gets in the way; it can’t help but get in the way, because the idea itself resists understanding.

There is literally a ["Biblically Accurate Angels" entry on Know Your Meme](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/biblically-accurate-angels-be-not-afraid)
There's a deep attraction to being one of the elite few who understand the true unattractive reality beneath the pleasant illusion so if you're gonna take the logic of memetics seriously(I don't, they can't even decide if a meme is more like a gene or more like a virus) what Scott calls antimemes would just be memes that appeal to a somewhat narrower demographic, but which nevertheless appeal.
> Welcome to the antimemetics division. This isnt your first day. (E: always really liked this quote from the scp files, btw if scott is basing his idea of antimemetics on the scp files, he didn't understand it. You cant be in possession of antimemes, that you can't remember them, see them or think of them is the point. See also people mistakenly calling all kinds of predicted things black swans (and as a fan of the rings with eyes angels he is also just wrong on that being an antimeme). If you have to worry about spreading dangerous antimemes it is actually just a meme, but gotta love the secret knowledge mysticism. He is confusing antimemes with counter memes where one idea gets overwritten by a stronger one).
...They Live is one of the most memed movies in existence though.
The point is that the theme or the conceit of They Live is all those billboards with instructions that hide in plain sight, which is what an antimeme would do in this metaphor, the fact that it gets memes is orthogonal or - if you want to stretch the metaphor - a good example of how culture gets reterritoralised by the dominant power structure or whatever [I’m meeting you half way, you fucking theory bros]
I'm still not following. If an antimeme is an idea that resists replication, the lizard people are actively working to replicate the consumerist ideas they use to control us. Like, Siskind name checks fnords- 'fnord' is a meme created/popularised by the Illuminatus trilogy to create a term for the implicit subtext in media that frightens us into complying. Siskind is replicating this idea *in the very blog* he's ranting about ideas-that-resist-replication. Unless I'm misunderstanding anti-memes and anti-meme is just another word for "ideas that have subtext" in which case *just say subtext* I have no idea what is going on.
You’re trying too hard to have two concepts fit together cleanly, it’s a lateral comparison
The antimemetic thing is that without the proper wavelengths being blocked the human brain cannot interpret the billboards as anything but billboards. They could just as easily say "Eat human flesh." and the people looking at them would feel compelled to do that without being able to tell you why they were compelled.
Yes! [glasses off] [image] | [glasses on] [image] is a meme that most everyone can understand the point, if not the source. That being said, the source is a quintessential "cult classic" - in Scott's parameters, it's a slower spread, but still very spread-able. Not "antimeme" at all.
I am not very familiar with memetics (when I feel like a dose of unhinged idealism I prefer the vintage, German one), but if we were to keep the gene analogy the entire disciplines rests upon, wouldn't "recessive meme" be a better term? After all it's not that the concept of angel did not spread, it just fails to express itself recognizably in the "phenotype". If you say "a concept that resists being spread" I think of it as the equivalent of fitness reducing genes, something like most people are bound to either not notice or be repulsed from. Soemthing that, in SA's words, "you can take an entire college course about and still not get" seems more like the memetic equivalent of the gene for blue eyes.
I’d describe memetics as more like fallen semiotics, but not only does that have its own connection to idealism, the distinction isn’t that important and the adage always applies: That which is new in it is bad, and that which is good in it is not new

“He’s also impressively erudite, drawing on the Greek and Latin classics, the Bible, psychoanalytic literature, and all of modern movies and pop culture.”

In other words, TLP has the same cultural depth as any basic bitch who went to college. I don’t know how erudite TLP really is, as I refuse to read his blog again, but this is pretty lame as far as endorsements go.

Nrx people are very easily swayed by a lot of erudite pop culture references, just look at moodbugs word salads. So no suprise there. Ready player one for racists. (The book, the movie is allright)
>Ready player one for racists goddamn, ouch
Which isnt to say rpo isnt already weirdly racist in the way that they just forget to include black culture, and have one token black girl. And then there is the racial stereotypes, but I dont want to do a 'overlap between nrx and rpo' post.
oh, absolutely. the festering soul of rpi is "90s pop culture listicle assembly as narrative" and the analogy is beautifully, concisely damning.

Honestly that post is a goldmine. Like, for the first time I could really see his rationalization abilities stretching thinner and thinner as not even him could give any remotely sensible meaning to the screed he was reviewing. In the end he had to capitalute, but rather than admitting that sometimes alt-right erudite contrarians are just unstable sociopaths prone to dellirium, he just decided that any guy who read Lacan has Doctor X-like superpowers mere mortals cannot phantom, so to save the author and not disappoint his frog readers. One of his goofiest tricks so far, and that’s saying a lot.

It didn’t read like that to me, the “Doctor X-like superpower” angle is a useful framing device you find a lot of book reviewers employ to get their point across: you frontload the fact that you don’t get it, but try to work out why people do, establish some personal humility, then stick the knife in at the end It’s just a way of narrativising your reaction to the book which sets up a disappointing conclusion without turning the whole piece into a hatchet job
>It’s just a way of narrativising your reaction to the book which sets up a disappointing conclusion without turning the whole piece into a hatchet job I mean, was the disappointing conclusion even set up here? I mean, given that we are talking about an olimpic champion of position dodging, and that he never disagrees or agress with anything 100%, this review still seemed more positive than not. I mean, in the end he spends way more time giving examples of why the book makes sense (the whole "it explains BDSM!" stuff), or at least *should* make sense (the whole "my professor X-like friends talk exactly like that!") than giving any negative feedback. It skims through the most superificial of all the possible objections, but gives the impression of putting a lot of effort and tought into conceptualizing supporting arguments. Maybe I am biased, but this sounds a lot like a scaled down version of the reactionary nutshell-anti reactionary FAQ trick he pulled years ago.
it's actually incredible holy shit Scott, the guy is clearly insane, just stop, you don't have to do this to yourself
And all that after yelling about defence mechanisms for like half the thing

Society found some psychopathic elites sitting in vampire castles and basically begged them, “PLEASE take our freedom and make us worse off!” The psychopaths answered “I dunno, seems like a lot of work and we’re already pretty rich”, and Society was like “No PLEASE we are begging you!” and the psychopaths shrugged and said okay, you can have a little oppression, as a treat.

Tyrannical government is an imperfect solution here; our government occasionally resembles democracy, which makes us complicit in its actions. What people really crave is domination by corporate HR departments. The moral arc of the universe tends towards more and more power getting ceded to corporate HR departments and things like them.

Hmm, maybe the reason the “““moral arc of the universe”“” tends towards consolidation of power in massive corporations has to do with the inevitable outcome of capitalism, instead of being “oppressed” by “psychopathic elites sitting in vampire castles”[insertion of triple-parenthesis left as an exercise for the reader] being something everyone “secretly wants”?

After reading a book criticizing society’s interpretation of Freud, he gets the bright idea to use fucking projection as a safe pretext for his fascist wish-fulfillment fantasies.

he does realize that the SCP wiki is a work of collaborative fiction, doesn’t he?

Well considering he didnt get what the antimemetics mean re SCP I doubt it. (he references antimemes but is actually talking about powerful memes which can spread and overwrite others. If there was an angels as rings with eyes SCP antimeme, you would forget about the angels as rings idea as soon as I talked about it, in fact I couldn't even write about it. It is more like the blindspot in your eye the brain routes around it, the idea is unspreadable and unmemorizable by definition (No wonder Scott is easily swayed by pop culture references)).
I suppose an antimeme in Scott's sense would be something like the pepper mill in this story which I assumed was written by Borges but on some googling seems like it was written by a different author(possibly programmer Mark Jason Dominus) http://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/borgeszahir.pdf
Sadly, im not familiar with that story. Will read it. But yeah, Scotts antimeme is simply something slightly different, im just nerding out on SCP stuff here.
> Well considering he didnt get what the antimemetics mean re SCP I doubt it. To be fair, the author of "There's no..." kind of asked for this sort of confusion by introducing the dude who eats thoughts and the bomb which also eats thoughts.
The what now? Never heard of the guy. And clearly if somebody would all thoughts there would be dead bodies all over the place, that we don't see them is proof it isn't real. ;) But yeah those are weaponized antimemes using the SCP 'worlds' magic. It is funny that the people who can 'fight' the antimemes are people who are either just very capable at putting themselves together after having half their mind ripped out, or just very oblivious people. But clearly Scott is running of a different definition of antimeme, influenced by the communities idea of cognitive hazards etc. There is some doubt of course on the effectiveness of his antimemes and just how scary they are (and well, how bad/good they are for various groups) but good for him for keeping them to himself. Of course, a smart man who thinks about incentives realizes that dropping the whole 'I know things you don't know which are dangerous memes' is already a risk of itself. So you can worry about his secondary motives to dropping this whole idea. (Esp considering his secret NRx status, and his desire for the kolmogorov option, but im mega paranoid mode now).
It's been a while since I read the stories, but about the first thing the main character does is fending off some creature by throwing hard drives at it. I don't know, it just seemed a little vulgar to me, compared to the lofty idea of self-keeping secrets and whatnot.
Ow yeah, there certainly is a lot of focus put on telling interesting scp stories, and not on consistent worldbuilding. Even the >!Big worlddestroying monsters at the end!< are more memes than anti memes, where death/being taken over is the side effect of the meme and not the whole purpose. Esp after >!the world reordering event (What they would call a CK-class restructuring event I guess)!<. In that way it is closer to what Scott envisions. But then [the book which when you read it](https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-140) changes history so an advanced distant ancestor to humanity civilization becomes more powerful is also an antimeme. It is a cool story, but it also suffers a bit due to SCPs tendency to go big and destroy the planet a few times (now with 90% less self insert mary sues). The whole 'kill the monster with hard drives' felt a bit off to me as well. The implications of that are just too big and weird. Very 'defeating the IT/Pennywise monster' vibes however (could be misremembering this one, I have only seen the first miniseries and it was ages ago). (Don't take me wrong btw, I do really enjoy the various SCP files. And I certainly cannot write as well as they do).
He doesn't get that Revelations and Ezekiel are two different books (some might say two entries in a work of long-running collaborative fiction) either, and doesn't seem to know of the multiple Biblical books that depict angels as just some guys.
Or engage with the broader issue that the idea of "biblical truth" is highly mediated by a long history of artistic and ideological interpretation, and that "biblically accurate" is functionally a term of art used to launder specific interpretations. TBF that gets a little too close to the nature of bayesian fetishism in the rationalist community SOOOOOOO
Yeah I'm pretty sure God is just some human looking guy walking in the garden of eden (humans are made in his image) and angels look similar to god in the oldest books of the bible.
Lots of scenes in the Old Testament (Genesis, Tobit, just off the top of my head) of a patriarch eating lunch with some guys or welcoming them into his house only to find out he'd entertained angels unawares. The entire Sodom & Gomorrah plotline becomes very...different if you imagine it took place with Ezekiel's vision of angels.
I'm sorry, are you suggesting you wouldn't sleep with a flaming eye-wheel?
Hey now, I said "different", not "unsexy"! If, I mean, that's what you're into.
Good news about Rationality.

And yet nobody’s mental image of an angel, nor any popular artistic depiction of an angel, has anything in common with the Biblical description

Neon Genesis Evangelion has entered the chat

Man, Scooter really needs to get The Illuminatus Trilogy out of his fucking mouth.

it's exactly the kind book I'd expect most Rats to be familiar with, though not necessarily to have read

Having actually checked the source, this is a bit of a stretch to HBD or whatever specific “forbidden knowledge” bullshit we’re picking on Alexander for today - righteous as it is to do so - seeing as he’s not exactly waggling his eyebrows conspiratorially like he does when he’s really getting up a head of steam

It’s like one flourish where he’d usually lay it on thick and try to make a point of it

If anything what I read of his review left me more sympathetic to him than the mediocre psychiatry blog guy from ten years ago who has a self-published book out now apparently

Yeah, this feels like a lazy sneer, tbh. You can't just grab some random, exceptionally turgid excerpt from his blog, throw it on the table, and say, "look at this, what is this, I don't understand what the hell this is. Is he talking about HBD again?" Quality sneers comes from accurately understanding the source material, and then being able to deconstruct it with minimal effort.

Anybody care to guess whatever on earth he might be referring to?

Not really, but maybe nothing… If there’s a clear answer someone please inform me, but I’ve been getting the impression lately that these spaces have reached a critical mass of bigotry and conspiratorial thinking that the dogwhistles to pander to them are about all of it, and none of it anymore if that makes sense. Vague gesturing at the illuminati and things polite society doesn’t want to hear can grab overly credulous leftos, too, and just generally make your nonsense sell to a wider demographic.

This is stupid though because Biblically Accurate Angels is actually a super common meme? To the point that it’s getting old and not nearly as clever as everyone seems to think it is?

Yes they have lots of eyes, yes it’s kind of fun that the angels in the Bible look more like something from HP Lovecraft than fat babies, but also, haven’t we beat this particular horse to death?

Oh look! Something that is usually positive and holy is actually scary! Religious experiences combine elements of exaltation and terror! Aren’t I blowing your mind?!

Bonus: to my knowledge, the term fnord first appeared on SSC in the article Nydwracu’s Fnords. (Remember Nydwracu?) I don’t want to read the article again because I’ve lost enough brain cells as it is, but if I recall correctly, it’s mostly sneering at people who acknowledge the obvious fact that neoreaction is evil and don’t feel the need to be civil about it.

“fnords” are from discordianism et al., which puts the origin of the term way back in the sixties and seventies, identifying the fact that it got picked up by some loons in California is like saying there’s deep significance in the fact that they called the good acid “orange sunshine”
> "" are from discordianism et al I don't get it. Did you mean to quote something?
You motherfucker, you got me far enough I went back and checked

The argument is: I accuse him of becoming a cult leader, he denies it. During a recent spat, he said something like - “okay, I agree that lots of people are fascinated by me / attracted to me / tend to do whatever I want, in a way that doesn’t make sense under the normal rules, and that you couldn’t replicate even if you wanted to. You can judge me for it, or you can admit there’s a hole in your map, something that I understand and you don’t. If you want to understand it too, read Lacan.”

What the fuck

I gotta say i read the lacan fanfic analysis because i am losing control of my life. I failed my semiotics class in college. I still didn’t need super powers to comprehend the higher grade anti memes on display 💀💀💀💀💀

Like i would prob not read a book where the author is yelling at fictitious me but like saying people have a defense mechanism against the giving tree is not rocket science idk y’all

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WHAT IS CLEVER IN THAT COMMENT, WHY IS THE LAST PSYCHIATRIST “GOOD”, I DON’T CARE IF IT’S WRONG OR RIGHT I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHY THIS IS GOOD WRITING Never mind, I found the origin of the quote in Alexander’s book review and it makes it so much worse, God TLP is a garbage writer
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He’s saying that the reader is a reactionary square who has repressed their own imagination and who is going to pass on their own repressive tendencies to their kids, which is he thinks a bad thing for parents, kids and for society in general alike. It’s not particularly incisive and to his credit it isn’t meant to be, it’s just an insult: there’s no analysis of the state in there, or it’s vague and in the background and certainly doesn’t rely on Marxy conceptualisations thereof. More importantly it isn’t a cool sentence, it’s a reasonably solid jab you or I could come up with on the fly, but in the larger quote its nested in an achingly pedantic shot at “just came up with this on the fly” that never comes off.
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Honestly I just don’t find his writing compelling on the sentence level, the line about Celine was *a point*, to wit: I really like Celine (the writer of sentences, not the antisemite), but it takes a skill that TLP doesn’t have to structure those sentences so the emphases and rhythms fall just so to complement the imagery and it’s a very short step until you’re over the angstt teenager cliff
Damn you once for the edit and a second time for flattery
TLP = *Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus*? I'm not following
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> Widely considered a master of prose style and startling, horrifying, addictive insight by people who don’t read much. These are the sneers I read this sub for
> Celine for people who don’t log off. Oh my god you win the whole sub. Best sneer *ever*.
> Celine for people who don’t log off. What's this reference?
Celine was a French doctor and author
Cool, thank you

was that part of revelations the 1928373929th change to the bible or the 1928373930th change?