4chan is worse than a safe place, it is a safe place where the nazis get to mingle with the 'normies', it is a recruiting platform. Semiregular invasions of other threads by /pol/ people (which they call poltards iirc) is just expected and dealt with like a broken stair. And nobody kicks them out because 'muh slippery slide free speech' or something.
There are quite a few spinoff forums (\*) where neonazis/shitheads/sexists etc gather after they get kicked out from the main forum after the people there had enough, and these places while always sucking aren't as bad as 4chan, the former doesn't radicalize non-radicalized people and doesn't normalize it, 4chan does.
\*: There are so many of these places it is wild. And only very rarely do these places actually manage to gather more people and be worse. Funnily enough the only example of this is 4chan (which was iirc created after SA kicked out anime fans, probably giving Moot a big dose of the old geek social fallacies and here we are).
E: and of course 4chan doesn't even have free speech as a lot of things are things you cannot say there, at least I think why else would they have moderators (think they call them janitors there). So it isn't a free speech absolutist place (else it would fill up with penis enlargement spam and child porn) so the question is always, where do we draw the line. I say Nazis raus.
>There are quite a few spinoff forums (*) where neonazis/shitheads/sexists etc gather after they get kicked out from the main forum after the people there had enough, and these places while always sucking aren't as bad as 4chan, the former doesn't radicalize non-radicalized people and doesn't normalize it, 4chan does.
>*: There are so many of these places it is wild. And only very rarely do these places actually manage to gather more people and be worse. Funnily enough the only example of this is 4chan (which was iirc created after SA kicked out anime fans, probably giving Moot a big dose of the old geek social fallacies and here we are).
There are places even worse than 8chan?
“The best way to prevent these attacks is to create a safe space
where discussions about sensitive issues can be had, as well as a safe
cultural space for European Americans who are concerned about their
place in the States. I think there is enough indirect evidence that this
is the best way to prevent future violence.”
The indirect evidence for this?
There are left wing radicals that have catastrophized their politics
as much as right wing radicals. But there are not as many left wing
attacks […]
Accidentally woke on rioting:
People who feel that their voice is heard, and who feel they have a
community and a future of (nonviolent) community activism, do not resort
to violence.
They’re just concerned about their community:
This attack is the third attack we’re had where the perpetrator
specifically mentioned racial rape rates and demographic changes. […]
What do we do for at-risk white youths who are concerned about issues
that affect them and their community?
Accidentally describing the Republican Party:
The best way to reduce catastrophic ideology and resulting violence
is to encourage safe spaces and organizations where voices are heard
loudly and clearly.
[On the Russian invasion of Ukraine] “On the other hand, [Russia]
is justifying [their] actions with «anti-fascism», and many combatants
are minorities, enthusiastically welcomed into the vibrant, diverse
imperial mix. Russia is experiencing low birth rates and intense
replacement migration too. And its Christianity is on the level where
Joseph Stalin can be plausibly beatified. What about Russia is
conservative in any positive sense?”
[From the same post] “It would be preferable to have [racial
fears] discussed in less toxic venues… [after quoting from the
manifesto] This is a run of the mill Mottepost.” (i.e. if he could just
have such a loving, non-toxic community like TheMotte, he wouldn’t be so
radical)
> "...back in the day these guys would’ve joined a cult or just a strict, totalizing religion that MAKES them get their shit together without judging them up front, and wound up well adjusted and very slightly odd citizens."
Depending on the time period, they would've joined a posse that terrorizes minorities, would have been literal slave catchers, would have donned a hood and robe, or would have joined the myriad of other actively hostile and racist organizations that existed in the past and today.
> (just gonna skim right past how we "increase white reproduction rate" - hey, what are the courts up to lately, anyway?)
The deep racists are upset about the overturning of Roe because black people and other racial minorities get a disproportionate amount of abortions compared to white people. To them, abortion bans mean more people they don't like.
> [From the same post] "It would be preferable to have [racial fears] discussed in less toxic venues... [after quoting from the manifesto] This is a run of the mill Mottepost." (i.e. if he could just have such a loving, non-toxic community like TheMotte, he wouldn't be so radical)
Lol at least they're being honest that the vast majority of the manifesto is your run of the mill TheMotte post. Didn't think we'd get that kind of self-awareness or honesty out of the subreddit.
Oh I get it, TheMotte is clever satire of what so-called self described rationalists might believe if they tried to derive everything from first principles.
[The Buffalo arsehole cut and pasted loads of "his" manifesto from the New Zealand shithead](https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2022/05/15/cut-and-paste-terrorism-much-of-the-buffalo-shooters-manifesto-is-copied-word-for-word-from-the-christchurch-killer/). Seems as if writing your own was all hard and stuff.
>The best way to prevent these attacks is to create a safe space where discussions about sensitive issues can be had, as well as a safe cultural space for European Americans who are concerned about their place in the States. I think there is enough indirect evidence that this is the best way to prevent future violence."
It's going to have the exact same effect, maybe worse. I imagine anyone in the room when these people go off about CRT or trans people or something is going to justifiably lose it. Then the shitheads get kicked out, cry "free speech!", and make new safe spaces, only they're safe in the same way a cult is friendly.
The only way you can discuss what people like this want to discuss is in an echo chamber.
Oh my GOD. How dare someone imply Republican rhetoric demonizing lgbt+ and people of color leads to stochastic terrorism, literally the day after such a high profile incident occurred with a manifesto that would be right at home as a comment in TheMotte (well, as long as it was dressed up a little).
Waukesha also seems to be mentioned exclusively because the attacker was a black guy?
Is themotte at the point where they are racialising the term 'left wing' to by definition include all Black Americans?
> Is themotte at the point where they are racialising the term 'left wing' to by definition include all Black Americans?
Yes. Someone is either one of the two races: white or political.
Reminds me of the infamous RNC tweet of the KBJ-more-like-CRT meme. The mere existence of black people is CRT to republicans (if I’m allowed to use the official RNC Twitter as representative)
as well as a safe cultural space for European Americans who are
concerned about their place in the States
Most positions of power in America (yes including almost all
presidents in history) are white men. Literally ~85% of Americans’ CEOs
and upper-management are white guys and yet (according to the
commenter), they are “concerned about their place in the States”.
Like.., they cannot have it worst!
But, let’s face it. Being a white guy is close to a curse. Literally
no future in this country. All these people from other races and gender
stealing our low-class jobs we literally don’t want to do ourselves
anyways. I was born WHITE and MALE and my chances of becoming a CEO or a
person in a position of power, per the above stats, are pretty small… so
small.. I feel threaten! by who? anyone I consider beneath me anyways.
But you should petty me, because if not I will commit a crime against
you, therefore, lets create more safe spaces for me… the marginalized
white man.
> Most positions of power in America (yes including almost all presidents in history) are white men. Literally ~85% of Americans' CEOs and upper-management are white guys and yet (according to the commenter), they are "concerned about their place in the States". Like.., they cannot have it worst!
They don't say the quiet part out loud, but they don't consider some of those people as being white and/or European. And the ones that are European don't count as white because they consider them to be aligned with some Jewish conspiracy.
> And the ones that are European don't count as white because they consider them to be aligned with some Jewish conspiracy.
Unless of course they share that background, in which case it's proof of their inherent superiority.
Well, if that's the case then some people either need glasses and/or psychiatric treatment.
and about the latter, if we look at the core, very core of things, this issues are not so much about race, or religion, or background as much as they are about a set of people with antisocial personalities. These find just any excuse to bully, pick a fight with others, view things as "us vs them", victim mentality, disregard for social norms, etc...
So I read the whole manifesto because I’m a masochist, and it is 100%
aligned with the scientific racism, whining about IQ/g factor
and culture war shit that SSC/TheMotte is obsessed with. The only thing
that was missing was a set of craniometers, but maybe it was there and I
missed it.
I guarantee you can take bits of the manifesto out of context and get
TheMotte to agree with them wholeheartedly.
I think someone put it up on archive.org, otherwise you will have to wade through an ocean of garbage to find it. I'm not going to link it, but the terrible forum that's obsessed with milking certain types of cows has it and celebrates it.
Most of it is your run of the mill /pol/. The only differences between it or /pol/ and TheMotte are that the former are more crude and open about their anti-semitism. If you've read TheMotte you've seen all of it before, besides the anti-semitic stuff. The manifesto leans on HBD, genetics, heritable traits associated with intelligence, and whining about IQ and *g* factor. It's very Mottean despite very clearly being the product of 4chan, memes and all.
2/3 of it is "research" on supplies to do the same as this shooter did.
All in all, it was very calculated, but not in some mastermind way, just calculated in that he thought about it a lot and when through a lot of preparation. Spent a lot of time and resources on ensuring that he'll be able to successfully stream the shooting, as it was pivotal for his goal to start a race war. He even had public Discord channels where he had a diary of all of the preparation he did, as well as serving as to do lists for the shooting. They existed for months and no one said anything about it to anyone that would be willing to stop him.
It's "interesting" in that it's a case of malignant irony poisoning, and as a log of exactly how the guy was radicalized. It's a testament to how well propaganda works, even the dumbest of propaganda on 4chan.
Hope I saved you some time.
Jesus, he managed all that, and TheMotte thinks the real problem is white supremacists just don’t have enough safe spaces?
Thanks for the rundown. Doesn’t sound like anything I haven’t seen, but might be a wake up call to others about how these people are getting radicalized and maybe steps we can take to stop it.
He could have worded it better but I see where he’s coming from
I have a theory that D.A.R.E. makes the drug problem worse
Because D.A.R.E. lies about weed, then kids realize what D.A.R.E.
told them about weed was a lie
So they think “well if they lied about weed, I wonder if coke is ok
too”
We are kind of doing the same thing with white racial issues
If the media says “white people and males are privileged, being a
white man is being handed a big W at birth”, when white dudes realize
that white people DO have legitimate issues despite the media denying
it, it sends them down that same rabbit hole.
Except instead of “maybe I should try cocaine” the outcome is “maybe
I should be a white supremacist”
If we, as a society, said “yes, there are struggles men face women
don’t, and yes, there are struggles unique to white people, just like
there are struggles unique to every other race, just don’t be a fucking
chode about it” instead of “LA LA LA WHITE MEN HAVE IT EASY YOUR
PROBLEMS ARENT REAL” you would see far less radicalization
Just like how if we said “listen kids when you turn 21 weed is
actually ok, lsd and mushrooms are on the line, the rest actually will
fuck your life up” you would see a lot less heroin addicts
The guy HAS a safe space. It’s called 4chan. That’s the problem.
“If we give them beer halls, there won’t be a putsch”
The whole thread is a work of art.
From the main post:
The indirect evidence for this?
Accidentally woke on rioting:
They’re just concerned about their community:
Accidentally describing the Republican Party:
Highlights from the replies:
[In which we say the quiet part out loud, quoting Moldbug] “[…] when the cause is good but the means a little too gory, the interested third party of a successful terrorist campaign adopts a strategy of dualism. Here is our Mutt-and-Jeff act: the unnatural response. We can always tell a Mutt-and-Jeff strategy because Mutt and Jeff have the same demands. Mutt tells you to satisfy these demands, or die. Jeff tells you to satisfy these demands, to “take the wind out of Mutt’s sails.” Also, Jeff and Mutt are frequently found at the same parties, enjoying the hell out of one another’s company.”
[Objecting to equating the Proud Boys with such a group, with bonus feeeeeeeeeeemales] “Not sure can lump proud boys in here. Some 1/6 behavior disappoints me but they also just seem like promoters of culture war on the side I agree with. The left has street activists why can’t the right have street activists. When at war you need your guys. Plus Miami core which has the best culture in America. […] They are by current standards patriarchal but I think most females still like men to be strong and lead.”
“…back in the day these guys would’ve joined a cult or just a strict, totalizing religion that MAKES them get their shit together without judging them up front, and wound up well adjusted and very slightly odd citizens.”
[On gun control, with obligatory racism] “Brutal honesty - we have to live with the shootings. The death tools are not high enough to sacrifice free speech or the 2A. And the total body count is absolutely tiny compared to black on black gun violence. […] To me these questions come down to 1. Sacrifice America give up on it 2. Live with 100-200 people murdered a year in these incidents.”
“Why do you assume that no solution like, I don’t know, stabilizing population shares via increasing white reproduction rate and/or limiting or biasing immigration would be possible or would be discussed in those safe spaces, if white demographic concern were to be rendered legitimate in the polite society?” (just gonna skim right past how we “increase white reproduction rate” - hey, what are the courts up to lately, anyway?)
[On the Russian invasion of Ukraine] “On the other hand, [Russia] is justifying [their] actions with «anti-fascism», and many combatants are minorities, enthusiastically welcomed into the vibrant, diverse imperial mix. Russia is experiencing low birth rates and intense replacement migration too. And its Christianity is on the level where Joseph Stalin can be plausibly beatified. What about Russia is conservative in any positive sense?”
[On the Buffalo shooter’s manifesto] “For instance, I can tell that much of his Jews-related content is wrong (IQ stuff is bogus, racist Menachem Begin quote is fake etc.), which would get called out, say, here.” (it’s only racism if you call Jewish people genetically stupid)
[From the same post] “It would be preferable to have [racial fears] discussed in less toxic venues… [after quoting from the manifesto] This is a run of the mill Mottepost.” (i.e. if he could just have such a loving, non-toxic community like TheMotte, he wouldn’t be so radical)
“The shooter killed at least 10 people of his target demographic, while his own ethnicity lost at most himself. Yeah he did nothing to make more white children, but if his goal was to change the relative sizes of white and black demographics then going purely by births caused or prevented it seems he won.”
TheMotte is the safe space that enforces ideological conformity for these ideas.
“left wing attacks, though of course they do happen (Waukesha, BLM, the NY train station shooting).”
The NY train shooter was a right wing black man.
Most positions of power in America (yes including almost all presidents in history) are white men. Literally ~85% of Americans’ CEOs and upper-management are white guys and yet (according to the commenter), they are “concerned about their place in the States”. Like.., they cannot have it worst!
But, let’s face it. Being a white guy is close to a curse. Literally no future in this country. All these people from other races and gender stealing our low-class jobs we literally don’t want to do ourselves anyways. I was born WHITE and MALE and my chances of becoming a CEO or a person in a position of power, per the above stats, are pretty small… so small.. I feel threaten! by who? anyone I consider beneath me anyways. But you should petty me, because if not I will commit a crime against you, therefore, lets create more safe spaces for me… the marginalized white man.
So I read the whole manifesto because I’m a masochist, and it is 100% aligned with the scientific racism, whining about IQ/g factor and culture war shit that SSC/TheMotte is obsessed with. The only thing that was missing was a set of craniometers, but maybe it was there and I missed it.
I guarantee you can take bits of the manifesto out of context and get TheMotte to agree with them wholeheartedly.
The OP is what sympathy to terrorism looks like.
This is going to be a glenn greenwald take sooner or later
He could have worded it better but I see where he’s coming from
I have a theory that D.A.R.E. makes the drug problem worse
Because D.A.R.E. lies about weed, then kids realize what D.A.R.E. told them about weed was a lie
So they think “well if they lied about weed, I wonder if coke is ok too”
We are kind of doing the same thing with white racial issues
If the media says “white people and males are privileged, being a white man is being handed a big W at birth”, when white dudes realize that white people DO have legitimate issues despite the media denying it, it sends them down that same rabbit hole.
Except instead of “maybe I should try cocaine” the outcome is “maybe I should be a white supremacist”
If we, as a society, said “yes, there are struggles men face women don’t, and yes, there are struggles unique to white people, just like there are struggles unique to every other race, just don’t be a fucking chode about it” instead of “LA LA LA WHITE MEN HAVE IT EASY YOUR PROBLEMS ARENT REAL” you would see far less radicalization
Just like how if we said “listen kids when you turn 21 weed is actually ok, lsd and mushrooms are on the line, the rest actually will fuck your life up” you would see a lot less heroin addicts