I guess this flies for being sufficiently dumb and weird, in that
although it’s off-topic or whatever it isn’t predictably
off-topic, even though I hate everybody involved - the author if
anything especially
Because I am extremely online this already crossed my radar
irrelevant to anything to do with SneerClub or Moldbug, and I just want
it stated for the record that there is a special loathing in my heart
for anybody (such as the author) who is fascinated, appalled, or
otherwise not just inwardly groaning to find out that the New York art
scene is like this
Finding out the author was the Jacobite magazines token leftist writer soured me on the guy a lot (and admitting he would do it again). Did remind me of the recent twitter shitstorm however, the Lockheed Martin shit. And the high amount of leftwing type people who defended that with 'I also work for a horrible company so what?' and not with 'we shouldn't use information from a toxic website to harass trans people/nb people/minorities/anybody'. (I'm paraphrasing here, there was a lot more going on, but best to not go into that at all).
Digging? He admitted it, [right here](https://mcrumps.substack.com/p/fear-and-loathing-on-planet-urbit) search for "jacobite".
Bonus point, on the same article search for "effective" and click the link for a hot tub surprise. (And if you don't know what the word Treblinka means, for all that is holy don't look it up).
Sorry, I'm so out of all this. What's the problem people have with the guy? What's the problem with New York's art scene? 'Cause otherwise I don't see the issue with what he did here. The movie woud've happened anyway and at least he probably made them produce shitty, unusable footage.
> the Jacobite magazines token leftist writer
Note that Jacobite != Jacobin.
And yeah, what he did here isn't bad. Just that im not a fan of the rest of the shit he pulls. Have seen the 'leftist is friendly to the fascists they dunks on' turn badly a few times too many.
And apart from that I don't know much more than what I read from his blog btw.
Yeah sure, I've seen it a million times already, some with the people mentioned in the article itself. It's just that none of those people would've ever have responded with a tenth of the ability that the author seems to have, even if he has embelished the story a little (and even then it's not really about how cool he was), so I still don't really get the derision.
And I don't know what the Jacobite magazine is, could you explain? Quick googling didn't help.
It was (I think it is dead) a thiel or perhaps yarvin funded pro fascism, or at least anti left magazine. You know an attempt to setup a fascist/neoreactionary intelligentsia. And he didn't care because it paid better than leftwing mags.
SSC referenced it a couple of times I think. (Looked it up, and right they were the idiots who said 'socialists never talk about rent-seeking' and Scott referenced that)
>even though I hate everybody involved - the author if anything especially
>special loathing in my heart for anybody (such as the author) who is fascinated
My god, yes.
My interpretation is: author writes about the downtown NYC art scene, which has apparently devolved from the usual self-absorbed big city art wankery into some deeply unpleasant stuff (e.g. transphobia), possibly related to involvement by Thiel and some of the /r/sneerclub usual suspects.
Bonus:
>Yarvin said that I was on the side of the hegemonic order, the side of “Mastercard,” and that when the choice is whether to take the side of Mastercard, the correct choice is always the opposite.
That's your Dark Enlightenment guru: basically riffing off of *Fight Club.*
Haha, the connection to Moldbug might be deep lore, like I said it's a bit of a stretch: Peter Thiel, who funded Yudkowski, also funded Moldbug, a fascist, pseudo-rationalist blogger directly adjacent to the the\_motte people. Moldbug features in this article as Yarvin, somewhat out of his usual element, as an actor in a ridiculous artsy movie that takes a terrifying turn.
But it stands on its own, really :D the author probably has no idea that those we sneer at even exist so nothing should really be necessary knowledge.
Now try explaining it to your fiancé who has no idea about any of this shit and is asking why are feverishly reading an article with a look between extreme constipation, bewilderment, and feverish excitement.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/lm36nk/old_scott_siskind_emails_which_link_him_to_the/ year ago, and predictably, the lw people went after the leaker.
if I remember shortly after his irl info was leaked too, he and many tech bros tried to defend his views and claimed he was not alt right or sympathizer. Any new thread after that defense?
New thread? Sorry I don't really get what you are asking. If you are asking if there ever was a real update on these leaks, not really I think. It was just memory holed/rationalized away. We here bring it up from time to time when we talk about ssc. But people dismiss sneerclub as strawmanhateclub anyway. (actually reading what people said here vs the impression you get about this place from reading Rationalist (and adjacent) stuff was an eyeopener).
really sorry. I was not clear.
I was talking about the time when his real identity got revealed and these leaks (alignment with NRx) became a hot topic and I remember a few articles called him out on this.
Then a lot of techbros defended these claims and refused to accept his association with like those of Yarvin
John Ganz was on the money: when the red scare women met up with Alex Jones he pointed out the long past of fash people being rejected but still enamoured by institutions like academia and art. We all know the most famous example. That's also part of what's happening here.
Could you elaborate on this a little or link to something Ganz wrote on this point of fash being enamoured by academia? I have an ongoing research project around the IDW and rationalists that I like to call "Cosplaying as intellectuals" and any work that helps me thrash out that idea is useful.
Try twitter searching on [his account](https://twitter.com/lionel_trolling), I can't find it. Has to have been from November '21 since the Red Scare women met Alex Jones at that time.
The most famous exampe I was refering to was, of course, Hitler being not accepted at the art school (I forget the name). Keep in mind that they're certainly not enamoured by academia but that they have a love-hate relationship with it (that honestly seems like the same horrid fascination that conservatives and authoritarians seem to have with everything they focus on: how they can't stop talking and thinkking about communists and whatever they hate; they're all Alex Jones lambasting the globalists that turn the frogs gay while [secretly looking at porn about trans people](https://www.thewrap.com/alex-jones-denies-watching-trans-porn-everybody-porn-pop-phones-video/)). They want to control, to become, to be accepted by the institutions (be it art, academia or any other) that would make them be a thing, without letting themselves be transformed by them; a contradiction in terms that they can't resolve, so they turn violent. That's one of the reasons we, mistakenly but IMO appealing to this very primitively, we call homophobes "closeted gays", even though they're not. I'm being extremely general tho.
A piece I liked that's related to the subject is the one that calls them and develops the concept of the "postmodern conservative", which would not only grind them personally (because of the pomo bad word) but aptly describes their worldview by calling them something that is a grifter but not only that.
edit: I opened a random essay by Ganz which caught my attention and it was it. The description of them as artisan cultural producers (the "brand" notion but more developed) will probably help you. The thing I was referencing to was in a twitter thread tho, since I re read the piece and it's related but not it.
https://johnganz.substack.com/p/the-political-economy-of-reaction
What's the research project about, if I may ask? Is it for academia?
Thanks for the thorough response, I will follow up. To answer your question, yes academia. "Cosplaying as intellectuals" is the way I frame it in my head to amuse myself but it's more about how contrarian thinking goes in hard on the supposed tenets of academic study (good faith arguments, empirical evidence, objectivity) but seems to completely forget their own biases. It's as if in the process of performing as objective rational beings they fool themselves into thinking that only they are free of bias, and that all of academia (apart from the few select studies they like) is riddled with idiots who lack any sort of reflexivity. It's an embracing of a subset of academic values whilst dismissing the entirety of academia itself as somehow compromised.
Its also the Ben Shapiro style argumentation where someone may make an actually academically supported point, and the contrarian will counter either by dismissing the individual, or attacking the purported "assumptions" the expert holds. When the expert then asks them to explain then how the issue should be addressed given such criticism they just double down on attacking the purported assumptions, never actually engaging with the point being made. In the end the expert gives up with being subjected to logical fallacies and the contrarian declares themselves to have deployed facts and logic. It's a kind of edge of my research interest that I haven't actually deep dived into yet. Need to read papers on heterodox thinking, pseudo science etc.
Anyway this was stream of consciousness rant, not fully fledged peer reviewed paper (which is another distinction the contrarian crowd seem to struggle with) so take this rant with the level of rigour it deploys (none).
> contrarian thinking goes in hard on the supposed tenets of academic study (good faith arguments, empirical evidence, objectivity) but seems to completely forget their own biases. It's as if in the process of performing as objective rational beings they fool themselves into thinking that only they are free of bias, and that all of academia (apart from the few select studies they like) is riddled with idiots who lack any sort of reflexivity. It's an embracing of a subset of academic values whilst dismissing the entirety of academia itself as somehow compromised.
That's interesting, but IMPO, that's how it looks to the outside but not what's happening with them. That poisoned contrarianism that you describe *does* happen in *some* of their followers tho (the Jordan Peterson fan that cries out "out of context" every time you critizise him is the perennial example in my mind; others are simply the slimy nazi that knows that the cover of the most feeble and see-through irony is regardless better than outright taking a stance), but not in the though leaders themselves. I have a personal theory on how belief works on people, and it changes according to your standing in the social hierarchy. We can talk more about it on PM if you like.
> Its also the Ben Shapiro style argumentation where someone may make an actually academically supported point, and the contrarian will counter either by dismissing the individual, or attacking the purported "assumptions" the expert holds. When the expert then asks them to explain then how the issue should be addressed given such criticism they just double down on attacking the purported assumptions, never actually engaging with the point being made. In the end the expert gives up with being subjected to logical fallacies and the contrarian declares themselves to have deployed facts and logic.
There's been at least a good number of jouralistic pieces about it so your scope could probably even extend beyond. Keep on it! I'd love for this subjects to breach more thoroughly in academia, since at least it's a good shock against it's sometimes real navel gazing.
edit: btw if you wanna read a little bit more about the distinction between follower and thought leader you could take a look at [The Authoritarians](https://theauthoritarians.org/), a book about a social psychologist that spent his life researching people with authoritarian personalities. It's a wild ride and it's free and you'll read it in a few but very enlightening hours. There's stuff there that'll make you doubt if there isn't honestly something broken in their minds. It talks about how they want to be perpetually enraged and how there's a difference between "the authoritarian" (the "follower") and the "social dominator" (the "thought leader"), and their differences. There's an excelent section where they explain how authoritarians are always searching on people who tell them who the "bad people" are (that's where the social dominator comes to serve). The researchers keep adding and adding groups of people and the authoritarians keep agreeing on the crack down. So trying to find their stop point, they eventually say that now they themselves are the one's being targeted, the ones the Leader have pointed out as the social disease that needs to be rooted out. And they still agree with the killing. It's incredibly funny and maddening at the same time, I've read it many times.
I take your point re: actual Nazis just knowingly deploying bad arguments and falsehoods and yes of course that's a thing. It's very hard to empirically unpick whether someone genuinely believes what they say, which I guess is the point of doing it.
I suppose I still am more interested in those that truly believe their own identity as "rational thinkers" because of my main project on how authoritarian and fascist ideas get traction amongst those that wouldn't in any way consider themselves to be far right. Fandoms, crunchy hippy communities, certain tech communities all seem to have fallen into this and outsider monitoring orgs I work with have told me it is not down to concerted radicalisation efforts by far right groups; these communities do it to themselves.
Through these routes I also think far right ideas can gain traction amongst the purportedly "apolitical" without necessarily requiring self identification as far right. For example, just today I heard my extended family parroting antisemitic central banking conspiracy theories because one of them is particularly into crypto currency and all their explanations of economics come from crypto blogs and forums (see David Golumbia for more on that). In many ways they are well meaning nice everyday people, but they occasionally veer into fascist talking points without realising it.
So yes in short summary, I agree the majority of people in IDW space and similar are just Nazis with a floppy mask on, but my specific interest is in those that actually believe in the mask and don't realise what's underneath it.
Re The Authoritarians. I've been meaning to read this and your summary has given me the kick to get on with it so thanks!
> Fandoms, crunchy hippy communities, certain tech communities
Oh it's really nice you're tackling "left spaces" (with a million quotes) too, appropiate since we're on a thread about supposedly left figures actually being at the very least friends with right authoritarians. The other day I saw a video by Brandon Russel or whatever that brit guy's name was, after knowing him because Mark Fisher mentioned in Capitalist Realism a good interview that he did back in 2009, and he's full on covid denialism now, "they" want to control us, GMOs are deliberate poison, etc. Absolute coockoo land.
> outsider monitoring orgs I work with have told me it is not down to concerted radicalisation efforts by far right groups; these communities do it to themselves.
That is really interesting and someone that would be interested in sharing and looking that up as well for their own research is the guy running the Alt Right Playbook series on youtube, I guess you probably know them. If not check it out because it's right up your alley, specially the "how to radicalize a normie" one, which explores nazi infiltration in communities, even if it's not the main thing happening. If I could, I'd love to see or read more about what you got as well. I'm not pursuing this academically since I'm a historian so it's not exactly on my field, but I do read up on pretty much all I can get my hands of on this stuff.
The stuff about right wing mainstreaming can be seen on memes too. We all use the clown emoji to signal when we're the butt of the joke, or the chad/virgin dychotomy, which are all originally far right memes that have gone mainstream and now everyone uses it without knowing their origins. It's not the same because my examples have been largely depoliticized, at least in it's original extreme right wing form, but shows it's influence. And I'm argentinian, the far right here is small and very different, yet we've recieved severe doses of internet right culture.
If you're interested we can keep talking through some other mediums.
I should have known that they were still trying to sell reactionary politics to teenagers as cool.
I find it hilarious reading that then reading just how much contempt the author of the op's article has for that scene
Then he told me what exactly they were supposed to be filming: the
crowd of extras was to populate the house of the Daryl Roth Theatre and
become an improvised IRL YouTube comments section/4chan message
board.
On the list of things that the universe needs, this appears
nowhere.
Oh and I forgot, my apologies: content warning for transphobia
(mainly), homophobia, ableism, antisemitism (mostly words and mentions)
and public shaming. Tell me if I forgot something.
To those who don’t know, “Yarvin” in this piece, an important
secondary character - it’ll make sense a little way through if you’re
familiar, trust me - is “Mencius Moldbug”, relatively well-known overt
fascist with all the bigotry and unrepentant, absolute evil that goes
with it (they would be more technical, precise and nuanced about it, but
I obviously do not care). It’s a wonderful and scary story, very well
written too, I think you’ll like it if you enjoy what happens here !
Hey poptart, I know this might be off-topic but I think it could be
appropriate if we stretch the rules a little because Moldbug is
described as some sort of a thought leader of the colorful little group
we’re seeing here, and because it’s a grandiose sneer in its own right.
And finally, because it’s absolutelyfucking wild.
That said, feel free to delete if you don’t think it’s a good fit.
(oh and a last disclaimer: i just found this out and have not
verified it to be true myself. none of these people really deserve to be
treated fairly on that front in my opinion so i don’t really care, but
ymmv)
This post is absolutely a stretch but should absolutely stay for capturing the same scene bullshit cacophony the rats have devolved into. Also it’s entertaining as all hell.
I don’t really know how substack works: did I just give someone bad
money for clicking that link? What’s the exchange rate on reading half a
paragraph like
As far as I can tell clicks aren't worth money on Substack: no ads or ranking/promotion, people there get money via subscriptions.
Also, Mike Crumplar here doesn't seem to be part of that milieu anyway
He seems like an okay guy but I can't imagine caring about the things he cares about. I guess when you have enough money to live in NYC, things like Twitter beefs actually seem important.
Well some privileged NY art people made an experimental, partly improvised, anti-political correctness film that is ostensibly about cultural and political commentary and invited "leftist" personalities (Chapo Trap House types) and friends to be in it.
The author of the article was invited in the guise of him presenting his communist, socially progressive point of view, but quickly this turns into the director trying to put the author of the article on blast, having everyone shout abuse at him (in the guise of being some 4chan metaphor or whatever) and argue with him in bad faith in which is obviously some form of on-camera, public humiliation ambush intended as revenge for a few bad reviews the author wrote of some transphobic art the director had made in the past. Much like some of my worst sexual experiences, it failed in a catastrophic yet unimpressive manner and everyone ended up a little disgusted with themselves.
Amongst these fake "the global proletariat are obviously stupid bigots which makes my own bigotry unproblematic and in fact rational" leftists is Moldbug, the actual fucking fascist, who somewhat ironically but predictably seems to have some intellectual cred in this group. He, amongst other things, argues for the importance of classical fascist art and then calls the author a "\[transphobic slur\] chaser" during the batshit surreal group therapy/struggle session that follows.
Hard to sum up really, but that's about it !
You forgot the part that after they had the attempt at cancelling the leftist by shouting slurs at him they had a group wank session in which they congratulated each other for their openness and love, without a hint of selfawareness or short term memory. But yeah good synopsis.
Yeah, I’m sorry theater kids need to be regulated by the government.
Like maybe have a system where they’re identified and sent to a program
where if they have actual talent in one of the performing arts they get
training and a scholarship. If they have no talent or potential they get
sent to therapy.
I get saying that they're all just privileged idiots obsessed with weird things but like, I dunno how unimportant it really is. Those are powerful people with material and cultural power pretty much by definition, or they wouldn't be able to do this shit, no matter how pathetic they are. Actual fascists and their actual fascistic beliefs are and were pathetic too, and they were made fun in the early 20th a lot as well, but I don't think it is necessarily obvious that this sort of nonsense isn't actually a substantially bad thing that ought to be fought if possible. Like, at least one guy from a millions a year in patreon donations podcast and probably millions of listeners was there ready to contribute and give legitimacy to the project just cause they asked.
I'm not saying this movie will be effective propaganda, it'll be an embarrassing piece of shit if they ever go through with it; but having the opportunity to say the right thing at the right time in the right ear, being a part of the intellectual wing of bourgeois culture, that's got to count for something I think. I'd have trouble believing it's all truly inconsequential. Now, how precisely it needs to be documented, I honestly don't really know. Probably less than that, but at least some.
I tend to be less dismissive than your average leftist of things like art, internet culture, "larping", etc though. I might be wrong about it, but from what I know which is not much, in this kind of fight the enemy can mostly look like ridiculous, incompetent poseurs, oblivious to truth and obsessed with bullshit, until they're not - or rather, until they get dangerous anyways.
That said, yeah the author probably isn't super great. Was apparently writing for a super reactionary thing (Jacobite) so that's bad, and at the very least he is chasing personal clout and success by playing nice to fascists and influential people - and realizing it doesn't really absolve him of it. But I thought the piece was well-written, entertaining and informative so I figured, whatever \^\^
This writer sucks and those people suck. There is also nothing
“fascist” about them. I’ve been perusing his other writings and he uses
that word embarrassingly irresponsibly. Nobody outside of NYC cares
about this stupid art scene and pretending they’re some genuine “threat”
to anything is ridiculous. Also, what does “proto-fascist” even
mean?
I guess this flies for being sufficiently dumb and weird, in that although it’s off-topic or whatever it isn’t predictably off-topic, even though I hate everybody involved - the author if anything especially
Because I am extremely online this already crossed my radar irrelevant to anything to do with SneerClub or Moldbug, and I just want it stated for the record that there is a special loathing in my heart for anybody (such as the author) who is fascinated, appalled, or otherwise not just inwardly groaning to find out that the New York art scene is like this
I don’t think I’m in deep enough to appreciate whatever the fuck is going on here
Sneerclub: “Wow, Professor Scott is obsessed with his critics in an unhealthy way.”
Petty neo-fascist NYC theater kids: “Hold my craft beer!”
E: and of course the red scare people are involved in this. (The dasha here is the red scare dasha)
“Hobbits that think they’re dark elves” lol
Oh no, the rabbit hole continues…
Peter Thiel’s anti-woke film festival facilitated by Yarvin
On the list of things that the universe needs, this appears nowhere.
This is one of the wildest, most insane things I’ve ever read.
Oh and I forgot, my apologies: content warning for transphobia (mainly), homophobia, ableism, antisemitism (mostly words and mentions) and public shaming. Tell me if I forgot something.
To those who don’t know, “Yarvin” in this piece, an important secondary character - it’ll make sense a little way through if you’re familiar, trust me - is “Mencius Moldbug”, relatively well-known overt fascist with all the bigotry and unrepentant, absolute evil that goes with it (they would be more technical, precise and nuanced about it, but I obviously do not care). It’s a wonderful and scary story, very well written too, I think you’ll like it if you enjoy what happens here !
Hey poptart, I know this might be off-topic but I think it could be appropriate if we stretch the rules a little because Moldbug is described as some sort of a thought leader of the colorful little group we’re seeing here, and because it’s a grandiose sneer in its own right. And finally, because it’s absolutely fucking wild. That said, feel free to delete if you don’t think it’s a good fit.
(oh and a last disclaimer: i just found this out and have not verified it to be true myself. none of these people really deserve to be treated fairly on that front in my opinion so i don’t really care, but ymmv)
That was a surreal glimpse into a world I would never have thought about before but now I probably won’t be able to forget
Edit: the author’s write up of a Moldbug meetup is also a trip
I don’t really know how substack works: did I just give someone bad money for clicking that link? What’s the exchange rate on reading half a paragraph like
Can I get some context? I don’t want to read the whole thing.
Is Moldbug actually playing himself in a movie?
Scene kids be the same everywhere i guess.
Yeah, I’m sorry theater kids need to be regulated by the government. Like maybe have a system where they’re identified and sent to a program where if they have actual talent in one of the performing arts they get training and a scholarship. If they have no talent or potential they get sent to therapy.
wtf is this? why do any of these ppl matter. wankers
[deleted]
This writer sucks and those people suck. There is also nothing “fascist” about them. I’ve been perusing his other writings and he uses that word embarrassingly irresponsibly. Nobody outside of NYC cares about this stupid art scene and pretending they’re some genuine “threat” to anything is ridiculous. Also, what does “proto-fascist” even mean?
Stop it! Can handle the idea that I’m never invited to the coolest parties.