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I keep seeing Progress Studies and Abundance Agenda popping up on intellectual Twitter. I can’t help but be reminded of fascism with those terms, but I can’t tell. Has anyone looked into this more deeply? Is this the next sneerworthy thing, or is it worth supporting?

Progress studies is an attempt at creating a new field that studies technological breakthroughs and can let us predict/create the preconditions for new breakthroughs. I think it’s mostly the work of Jason Crawford and Tyler Cowen, with support from the Stripe billionaire Patrick Collison. It got dunked on a bunch by history twitter when they first proposed it in an Atlantic article a few years (?) back for basically trying to reinvent history for VC types. Crawford seems to be pretty bent towards deregulation as a panacea, Tyler Cowen is Tyler Cowen and Collison is one of Scott Alexander’s billionaire fans, so it’s kind of kooky, although some of Collison’s experiments with medical research funding mechanisms during the pandemic may have been valuable.

The abundance agenda stuff is a more general idea across neolib through to socdem twitter that America (and the world) has gotten bad at building stuff over the last several decades, with both government projects and private development getting less ambitious, slower and more expensive for worse results. It holds that we need to be as ambitious and capable as we were in the 50s and 60s, and wraps in techno-optimism regarding renewables, new nuclear and carbon capture, techno-optimism regarding disease-eradication, YIMBYism, and more out there “where’s my flying car” stuff. It’s adherents see it as an antidote to pessimism and degrowth ideology. I wouldn’t say it’s rightwing the way Cowen’s progress studies stuff is, but it’s a big tent and the progress studies stuff is in there.

Neither movement is fascistic, and the abundance agenda stuff attracts a fair number of big government social democrat types. You could accuse them (particularly progress studies) of being very California Ideology-esque, and both are vituperatively opposed to anything that has even a whiff of degrowth, and punch left at the hippies a fair amount.

Re: progress studies, doesn't business management/economy studies etc already do that and don't they just call it innovation?
Yes, but economists don’t allow VCs, tech guys, and random internet dilettantes to cosplay as serious intellectuals in the way that these folks would prefer.
You couldn't have picked a worse example if you tried. Economists are the worst in terms of allowing outsiders, not dilettantes, but scientists from other fields, and actually scientists from schools other than Harvard, Yale and Stanford, to have an opinion on economics. As [Indrajit](https://indi.ca/the-economy-is-far-too-important-to-be-left-to-economists/) wrote "The elitism and concentration of power within the elite is shocking. If academia is an ivory tower, economics is another tower, sticking up from the very top." It's all about POWER, not about truth. "What makes economists especially dangerous stewards of ‘the economy’ is that they’re incredibly insular. Economists talk to other economists, favoring the most elite economists, making for a severely stunted and inbred understanding of the world. Which rulers then rely upon to govern. They’re like the Hapsburgs of academia. This data is a bit old (1997–2005), but it’s the [best illustration](https://ibb.co/0Y7r60Q) I’ve seen of the circularity of economic citations. While other sciences routinely cite and learn from each other, economics cites itself (orange, top right). No wonder relying on economic governance is destroying the Earth. They don’t even think about it at all." [https://ibb.co/0Y7r60Q](https://ibb.co/0Y7r60Q) "This shows how much each social science cites other social sciences. Economics and psychology connect the least. As Philip N. Cohen said “Sociology cites other disciplines about 5-times as much as economics does. Specifically, sociology cites economics about 8-times more than the reverse (note different scales in the second figure).” "As you can see, Economics is the worst." [https://ibb.co/HKxcTyh](https://ibb.co/HKxcTyh) Van Noorden (2015) via Giuseppe Cavaliere: "The big problem is that most economists don’t think this is a problem. As to a 2006 study on what economics professors think of this, nearly 60% disagreedwith the statement “in general, interdisciplinary knowledge is better than knowledge obtained by a single discipline.” They don’t think it’s a problem at all. They like their Hapsburg nose and being unable to breathe."
Not to mention on other issues: getting an economist to take public health or climate policy not already suggested by an economist preferably with their exact political bent seriously is pulling hen’s teeth In that you have to find the hen with teeth even before you can go through the drama of pulling them
Believe it or not, I also don't care what random uninformed internet dilettantes think.
I mean what they said is pretty tame stuff you’ll also hear often enough as a worry from people inside the profession
I mean, low cross-citation patterns are mostly true. But I don't see why that implies that we should start listening to Patrick Collison or some Mercatus-funded guy with a substack about how to think about economic growth. And frankly I'd take the boo-hoo-hooing about cross-discipline citation and ignorance from other social scientists more seriously if the shoe wasn't so often on the other foot.
I’m sorry, you’re going to have to point me to the bit where I or anybody else here suggested that “we should start listening to Patrick Collison or some Mercatus-funded guy with a substack about how to think about economic growth” - it’s practically a requirement posting on this sub to be against that sort of thing! What it *sounds* like is that you’ve pre-committed yourself to the assumption that anybody who raises a fuss about this sort of thing is the sort of person who *would* suggest that, or the sort of social scientist who criticises the economist’s mote without paying attention to the beam in their own eye (or both of those are the same person!). Being pro-actively defensive is a bit ridiculous!
>I’m sorry, you’re going to have to point me to the bit where I or anybody else here suggested that “we should start listening to Patrick Collison or some Mercatus-funded guy with a substack about how to think about economic growth”. If that wasn't the point of the poster who responded to me (not you), then what was the point? Random BS? That's what this thread is about. >It’s really unfortunate that that seems to happen every time I run into an economist themselves encountering a criticism of their field: it has certainly put me off bothering to even try engaging productively with economists as a group even on issues they themselves acknowledge aren’t perfect. Nobody asked you to engage, dude.
I mean yeah actually I have been asked to engage, in my own small way, you literally don’t know anything about me, or what I do online or off. Anyway I re-edited the comment to simplify the point to “it’s a bit ridiculous to be pro-actively defensive” which is what you’re doing. The point of the comment was to respond to your claim that economists are invulnerable to faddish power plays or whatever, which is why it said what it said. As far as I can work out there’s no attempt whatsoever to defend Mercatus or whoever. And this thread, if you look at basically any comment, is not on the side of the “Progress Studies” people or Patrick Collison or any of that lot. The subreddit itself - I assume you’ve not looked - is not generally well disposed to those kinds of people. I’m certainly not and I moderate it. It’s fitting that you came in here with a pre-packaged defense of the economics profession against criticism, only to find that you don’t even know what the criticism is.
>claim that economists are invulnerable to faddish power plays or whatever that wasn't my claim. you and the other guy should try actually reading the single sentence I posted, then go touch grass. I didn't post here to fight over the economics profession. if you need a hard reset, the meaning of my original post was that the progress studies universe is all about founding a "new field" to dodge having to answer to peer review or do any kind of serious scholarship beyond substacking. does that help?
I don’t care about defending whether the other guy’s criticism was a point to what you actually said, take it up with him. I’m here making my own point, in particular that you’re blundering in here with no apparent idea what anybody else is talking about. Nobody here is defending Progress Studies or any of that, so you’re shouting into the aether. Typical economist if you ask me, always ready to shout down at anyone he reckons is beneath him.
>I don’t care about defending whether the other guy’s criticism was a point to what you actually said why did you even start responding in the first place then. you are exhausting.
To make the exact point I made in my first reply you ridiculous blowhard, who it is clear is only still here to rage against the tyranny of finding out that he has blundered into the room full of spleen to vent on his chosen target and found out that it was the wrong room in the first place! > what they said is pretty tame stuff you’ll also hear often enough as a worry from people inside the profession This on the matter of economists having a high-handed attitude to cross-citation or engaging with disciplines outside economics. You took this and everything else as somehow being in defense of the Progress Studies people, although it wasn’t, and nor was the comment with the links that you replied to before I got involved. All of this is exhausting to you because you have forgotten the basic skill of consuming and assimilating information, unsatisfying as it is compared with the much more fun skill of identifying opportunities to shout at people who aren’t even there.
I think the progress studies people are after bigger stuff than just what MBA types mean when they talk about innovation. They want new technological breakthroughs, so new Bell Labs, Cavendish Laboratories, Manhattan Projects, etc. But yes, lots of fields already study what they founded a new field to study.
Yeah, I just recall during my studies that they talked about how to setup innovation stimulating places, like silicon valley etc. So going on that it feels like nothing new.
There's a reason why lasting new fields tend to appear when someone or some people have a paradigm-shifting new insight into a new area or unexplored contradiction not covered by the existing literature, and then a new field grows up around it, rather than from people trying to force it the other way around.
We got so many technologies from NASA and fundamental research its not funny. People want everything now to result in short term gains. HP used to be an innovator in the whole tech sector. Now they turn out mediocre server hardware after selling off their research units in the 90s. R&D spending is down across the board. Groundbreaking results needs lots of money with time horizons of at least a decade.
It really is incredibly depressing that HP's innovations these days are, like, ink DRM. It's so clear that late stage capitalism is running out of steam. Capitalists don't want to think big anymore, because thinking big is expensive and the markets are saturated. So now they're basically scrounging in the couch cushions looking for pennies by charging you $15 a month to log into your inkjet printer. The worst part is that this is working (for them (for now)).
Just because HP isn't a big dog anymore doesn't imply that "capitalists don't want to think big." There is lots of tech research going on: huge advances in ML over the past couple of years, lots of custom silicon (TPUs at Google, M1s at Apple, Dojo at Tesla). Most of it doesn't make it to consumer goods because most consumers are happy as long as their machine runs Minecraft and plays YouTube videos. Most of this stuff can be converted directly into ad revenue so there are huge incentives for them to pursue it.
I've done a shot post on EA forum about innovations — Innovation System needs fixing [https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/NxumbdKKX9Ri2yiHR/innovation-system-needs-fixing](https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/NxumbdKKX9Ri2yiHR/innovation-system-needs-fixing) The core argument is: 1. There is an innovation system that produces useful new ideas. This system evolved and exists today in some form. 2. It may be that this form is no longer conductive to scientific and technological progress. 3. If that's the case, then tech improvement may slow down. 4. Then our technosphere, economy and society may suffer due to exceeding planetary boundaries (and the general systemic crisis) and no good technological solutions. 5. Civilization may collapse. There several problems with the innovation system that few people write about, few can articulate and few realise. 1. First, most of the innovation over the past 200 years was about new ways to use energy. People like Tim Morgan and Nate Hagens explain well the energy problem (and of course Vaclav Smil). The coupling of GDP with energy and materials is about 99-100%. 2. Second, energy innovation was complicated. Energy is not substitutable, we have evolved to use a particular mix (so we can't just replace bunker fuel with wind or gas with nuclear). Nuclear was overregulated and we failed to create 2nd gen power plants. Solar and wind may have already realised most of the efficiency gains and will not get cheaper. 3. Third, people completely fucked up nanotechnology, which was supposed to give us a way to use less energy and less materials. 4. Fourth, the innovation system is now mostly innovation theatre. VCs, startups, Big Tech, more papers, more patents, more GPT-generated papers, etc. It's a complete and utter disaster. 5. Fifth, noone in the world manages innovation systems with a good level of system understanding. May be there are one or two people in China (but I am not sure). As a result, we cannot create a technology fix well. And of course, media (click/pageview-focused) such as [futurism.com](https://futurism.com) or [singularityhub.com](https://singularityhub.com) doesn't give us a balanced picture, they only give "[UpliftingNews](https://www.reddit.com/r/UpliftingNews/)" (same with [Futurology](https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/)). **Some constructive ideas** There are actually ways to fix the problem somewhat. Some of the partial solutions are corporate labs, PARPAs, goal-oriented R&D, FROs, TRIZ, etc. However, as long as the liberal/libertarian/market-oriented model of VCs + startups dominates, it's unlikely that alternative modes of R&D will take off.
R&D spending is up across the board (denominated in 2020 dollars): a 2x increase since 2000, a 4x increase since 1990, a 20x increase since the 70s. The increase is primarily driven by the private sector: https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R44307.pdf
Sounds like science and technology studies and history of science without, you know, any actual connection to reality. I would guess they didn't like the results produced by the decades of research that went on in those fields. Perhale more likely they just blindly presume that they're the first to think of it.
I feel like Patrick Collison hasn't come up much on this sub given how into the rationalist stuff he seems to be.
>Collison hasn't come up much on this sub given how into the rationalist stuff he seems to be. I can give you this banger[https://twitter.com/patrickc/status/724291528772837378](https://twitter.com/patrickc/status/724291528772837378)
oh, that arse that makes the thing his whole personality
Man. Somebody needs to give me a big explainer about Tyler Cowen, because from here (non-US) I can't see why he's influential, or how influential he actually is. Or what his entire deal is. Why is Tyler Cowen.
He’s a talented economist in the academic sense, so he goes to GMU, then Harvard for a doctorate, and ultimately back to GMU with a chair in economics. GMU is a Washington DC university: a good reason to go there when you’re young is that you want to be in beltway circles. The more I look at Cowen’s career the less I marvel that I can’t find anything in *particular* that should mark him out for being influential (other than writing a lot and making policy-maker-friendly noises) and the more I assume he did all the right things and talked to all the right people at all the right times in his life from early on. In the American context that’s a valid career path, it’s the same thing you do if you want to end up on the Supreme Court or in the pages of the New York Times (in the byline, not above or below it). He’s establishment, with all the precocity, talent, gladhanding, work ethic, and venality that that implies. This is the kind of person who you should never believe when they say “I finished my degree and suddenly found I had nothing to do, then one day I happened to hear [nobel prize winning whoever] was looking for a research assistant on [world moulding project] and I thought this is crazy but I should go for it” or stories to that effect: if their name was even in the hat there was always a hell of a lot more going on than it would be polite to affirm or acknowledge.
>talented column in the academic sense, so he goes to GMU, then Harvard for a doctorate, and ultimately back to GMU with a chair in economics. Lol rip career. Isn't GMU like a clowshow of climate denial and esotheric Bayes theorem nutjobs? ​ And his politics? Or his blog? To me, he did give of a "hiding his powerlevel' vibe, like SSC or Bryan Caplan. Caplan is on SSC blogroll as this libertarian economist, but but if you look into Caplan he's in favor of child labor, cencus voting rights, race and IQ, and Victorian ideas on undeserving and deserving poor. (If I remember his books and blogs correctly). But Cowen's blog was way more tame and while it did look way more conservative than that rationalists would want somebody to realize, I didn't see a lot of evidence of 'dogwhistly' stuff.
GMU also has two Nobel Memorial Prize winners, so say what you like, they’re more powerful and making more money than you or I - Buchanan in particular is obviously not somebody to brush off as *only* clown shit, because he was pretty horrid I don’t know what you’re telling me with the rest, you write like you’re talking to yourself for yourself
Point taken. I'm asking what Tyler Cowen politics are. It's very unclear to me after checking some of his blog, and I couldn't find good info about him online.
Establishment libertarian, he doesn’t have Caplan’s taste for kneecapping himself, regularly, in public
Answer edited to say “economist” rather than “columnist” at the top - don’t know where my unconscious got *that* idea…
damn, I totally forgot about Tyler Cowen and the dunks Good times

Progress studies is what you get when you rehash whig history and cultural evolutionist anthropology. It’s [White’s law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White’s_law) but now that we have computers we can do obsolete anthropology faster and with more variables.

Interesting.

It does indeed look like a philosophy that can start out neoliberal (Entreprenurial mindset etc.) and can easily be taken up by Nazis (Industrial productionism).

Partly because the overlap in goals of both movements that occur naturally and partly because building that neoliberal-to-far-right bridge is exactly what rationalists are doing.

First built a theory in which a neoliberal technocracy is necessary, argue for a enlightened dictatorship (but it’s a benevolent AI), then argue for a biological high IQ elite, then bemoan the AI isn’t here yet, allow the far-right to put pieces of the puzzle together for years within the movement.

The simplest argument is that the people who are running the economy are screwing up, and that abundance politics puts those same people in charge of the solution. Rewards them to do more of what they’re already doing.

Another argument is the overproduction crisis. Creating abundance to stop inflation is a distraction. Inflation is people increasing the price of products. It happens anyway, abundance or no abundance. The 2008 financial crash wasn’t caused by a lack of abundance, but by people not being to afford said abundance, and a lending economy built to increase demand so people could keep buying stuff. Banks scaffolding capitalism.

As soon as the housing bubble burst, people couldn’t pay their loans, had no money, couldn’t afford new cars, and car factories closed down.

No way increasing supply will lower prices enough. The entire point of abundance politics is that they don’t want to increase wages enough so people can buy these products. They want to increase production of products nobody can afford anyway.

“Abundance Agenda” is just more neoliberal claptrap, reading the link, yes making things CHEAPER through making more of them MIGHT help, but people still need to be paid enough to buy them. For example, the US already has a glut of housing compared to homeless. The problem is much of it sits empty and bought up for speculation. It’s wasteful to PRODUCE MORE.

So in this case, MORE REGULATION would be better. End purchasing of single family homes by large private investors, caps on turning housing into short term rentals like AirBNB, etc.