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Greetings geniuses. I am wondering if any one can point me in the direction of literature or argumentation that disputed some of the first principles underlying the LW / Yud / bostrom view of AGI. In particular looking for critiques of:

-utility functions / terminal value -orthogonality -instrumental convergence -consequentialism in the context of AGI

Thought this would be a good place to ask. Thanks

Emille Torres is a former EAer that has been crusading for a while against longtermism, worth checking out their arguments.

Superintelligence: the idea that eats smart people gives a good summary of reasons why AGI risk is kinda flimsy. It just inherently relies on a bunch of assumptions that aren’t necessarily true.

One of the key reasons you should be intiutively skeptical of AGI risk is that the rationalist community and “the sequences” are full of pseudoscientific idiocy, and that “rationalists” are likely the most influential group among AGI x-risk advocates. If they can’t realise that rationalism is dumb, can you really trust them on AI risk, an issue that relies on a chain of reasoning with a lot of flimsy assumptions?

One of the problems is that institutes that support AGI risk ideology get funnelled millions of dollars and can work full time putting out persuasive literature, while skeptics are generally hobbyists who argue against it in their spare time purely out of “someone is wrong on the internet” energy. Most people that correctly find AGI risk to be flawed will not put out rigorous papers on the subject, because we have day jobs to do. There are some attempts to change this with “change our mind” type competitions with cash rewards, but it inherently can’t compete with a full time institution.

> rationalism is dumb I'm relatively new to this whole corner of the internet/world. Can you help me understand what rationalism even is, specifically, and why its dumb?
More on Rationalism (I like to capitalize it to show it differes from what we normally refer to as rationalism/being rational/thinking about rationality) can be found here on this [rationalwiki page](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/LessWrong). Note that Rationalism, rationalism and rationalwiki are 3 different unrelated groups/subjects. Btw, if you look at the sidebar, that is actually a quote from the /one of the creators of Rationalism, and we use it to mock him. The whole name sneerclub/sneerclubbers is a nom the guerre. E: And one of the other reasons Rationalism is bad is because of the friends it keeps, it is one of the bigger communities which allows a lot of talks by various racists, neo-facists, etc etc. Specifically it is one where the [Neoreactionaries](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Neoreactionary_movement) (neo-fascist tech nerds basically) hang out, Scott Alexander is a crypto NRx for example (he admitted this in the email leak, he esp was onboard with the racism of NRx less so the monarchy shit), and the other Scott regularly (or used to) emails with Moldbug. While some would say 'this is guilt by association' I think it is part of a semi intentional conversion funnel, so that argument doesn't apply and it would be akin to saying '4chan isn't all neo-nazis, that is guilt by association!' E2: Another big problem with Rationalists are that they are great at making the 'Recognizes tone but not the content' errors. So telling a racist to fuck off will get you banned, but posting a large logically reasoned article in which you say that people who cuck others should be executed because genetic purity is the most important thing is fine.
How dare you not plug Neoreaction A Basilisk
Ow god sorry, I wanted to edit that in before I hopped to the supermarket yday and then I was distracted by the foolish reaction. But yeah read that book to see how nrx started and how it is linked to LW. And remember after the book was written the sales funnel effect was made more clear not less, imho it downplays the connection between the two groups but it is a good start to learn more about these nerds.
To reduce it down even further, their Rationality is Maxmizing Utility, and Utility is defined the same as in any economic sense. Therefore a Rationalist is a Moneyseeker. This is a reoccuring theme with Yudkowsky, that is, the insanity of not becoming ridiculously rich.
I don’t think that’s what most of them mean by “maximize utility”
Oh I know, I am being super reductionist. A lot of them dont even know what they mean by utility. I guantantee you that not a single one of them could describe a utility function in an LLM or anyk transformer model. Here's is what Yud means though: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ZpDnRCeef2CLEFeKM/money-the-unit-of-caring Edit, the precise quote: > This resource balance principle implies that—over a very wide range of approximately rational systems, including even the interior of a self-modifying mind—there will exist some common currency of expected utilons, by which everything worth doing can be measured. > In our society, this common currency of expected utilons is called "money".  It is the measure of how much society cares about something. > This is a brutal yet obvious point, which many are motivated to deny.
I think the deeper problem is that they tend to implicitly assume that value is inherently quantifiable and fungible. That leads to money-as-value more often than not because that's the most easy-to-follow way of quantifying how much people value things, provided you ignore all the very obvious way that this doesn't completely capture what we mean by 'value' in any other context. Similar to how they implicitly assume that "intelligence" is a singular quantity that can easily be quantified and maximized rather than a complex series of tradeoffs and interconnected but distinct capabilities or whatever else. You *can* use IQ to talk about intelligence or use price to talk about value or use brain scans to talk about love but in doing so you're redefining the thing you're talking about to something that at best only partially reflects the thing that we actually care about.
rationalwiki is not a good source. for anything. it's a fascinating exercise in blurring the line between valid skepticism, tounge-in-cheek satire, and unhinged bias, but nothing more solid than that. >4chan isn't all neo-nazis, that is guilt by association!' is a 100% true statement. anybody who has actually used the place for any length of time can confirm this. >Scott Alexander is a crypto NRx for example [pardon me if I don't take your word for it, given what seems to be fairly clear and long-established evidence to the contrary](https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-faq/) >they are great at making the 'Recognizes tone but not the content' errors. So telling a racist to fuck off will get you banned, but posting a large logically reasoned article in which you say that people who cuck others should be executed because genetic purity is the most important thing is fine. because one is an attempt at discussion and the other is a cancerous side effect of general degradation in internet discourse. personally identifying an argument as 'racist' then dismissing it without highlighting real issues is *explicitly* anti-(small r)ational.
You fool. (E: for the people who might think this is mean, I have no desire to play 'gotcha debate' with a person so out of date on information who also ignored half my post).
enter the sneer club, expect only sneers? I remember you folks being a lot more reasonable the last time I was on r*ddit.
Wait so you have been here before and still posted what you posted? Let me repeat the words of a wise man: > You fool.
the last time I was here (~2017) there was a large amount of cross-pollination between this place and LW, SSC, etc. more a check against inflated ego and grandstanding than what it appears to be today (by my cursory glance, a cesspit of one-way hatred). I'm half-convinced it's some kind of medium-scale practical joke given how silly most of the posts here are, but that wouldn't explain the constant need to exposit about the Evil Rationalists. is there a feeder site somewhere sending you guys new users?
Considering this sub started as an offshoot from r/badphil I think you are thinking of a different place. But ask one of the mods, tag in noactuallyitspoptart, it will be fun. But I doubt you will be around long. denying racist places/people are racist isn't a smart move here, esp against people who have seen the racism esp if you have foolishly not updated your priors.
Rationalists are laughably dumb. They always were. Now they are also laughably evil.
> pardon me if I don't take your word for it, given what seems to be fairly clear and long-established evidence to the contrary A nazi has to tell you they are a nazi if you ask them directly, just like cops.
It's a community of nerds based around the website "lesswrong" and a very large bunch of blog posts called "the sequences" written by a guy called Eliezer Yudkowsky . They have developed their own subculture of beliefs, jargon, and social clubs around the world, ostensibly for the purpose of becoming "more rational", but mostly they like to hang out and debate weird nerd stuff. The problem with the community is that the "sequences" blog posts it's founded on, while decently entertaining pop-science writing, are also riddled with holes, dodgy assumptions, and an extreme level of overconfidence. For the most famous example of this going astray, I recommend reading the rationalwiki article on "[roko's basilisk](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Roko's_basilisk)", where a bunch of people in the community managed to become genuinely terrified of an imaginary evil robot from the future.
I think you’re underselling how bad they are in all senses of the word
If you doubt the ability of that imaginary evil robot from the future to reach back through time, look at why Elon Musk just bought twitter.
Roko's Basilisk isn't even part of the sequences, and most people on lesswrong didn't agree with it
This comment is an obvious example of concern troll. Are you feeling attacked?
What the hell are you talking about? My comment was absolutely in good faith and I found valuable the responses it received defining and criticizing rationalism. >Are you feeling attacked? Are you feeling like a paranoid schizophrenic?
Yeah that was a weird comment, esp considering this place has a regular influx of new users due to reddit being weird (that is why we are forced to tell people the same things over and over again, if you want to know more just scrolling through the archives, and perhaps looking at NSFW posts might be valuable).
Thanks for the reply. I am less interested in critiques of longtermism (mainly because it feels so obviously wrong and dumb) more interested in fundamental AGI risk objections, especially those that tackle the rational actor theory stuff that LW seems to rely upon heavily. I definitely get a kick out of laughing at the dumb shit like that that Yud posts, but I am not sure that really addresses some of the more general statements about AGI risk and safety. I feel like AI safety will be an important issue, and I am interested if there is research that debunks fundamental assumptions about how AGI will operate (such as utility function). In your post for example, you gesture at the flimsy assumptions behind AGI risk, but don't point me in the direction of any resources that actually call out these assumptions (even the basic rational actor theory value problem seems very vulnerable to critique, so why not substantively critqiue it?)
So first off, let's address the "AI safety" motte and bailey tactic. If you define AI safety as: " AI is likely to be buggy in ways that are harmful and we should try to prevent this", then yeah, it's completely logical. But what AGI x-risk people mean by "AI safety" is a way, way stronger claim. They think that a powerful AI is inevitable, soon, and that it will *by default* have a bloody minded obsession that requires it to kill or enslave us all. They also think it's inevitable that the AI will win, something they take as a given but never even argue for. To address some of your points quickly, nothing about having a "utility function", or rational actor theory necessitates bloody murder. "build ten paperclips, then shut down" is a simple example of a goal utility function that, pursued rationally, will not do shit. The dumb shit that yud posts is crucially important to this, because he still runs the largest AGI x-risk foundation, and his followers comprise a substantial portion of the people concerned about AGI x-risk. lesswrong is still inextricably linked to the movement, to the point where the "[Effective altruism forum](https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/)" has an automatic option to crosspost to lesswrong. Yud's "dumb shit" is most of the basis for the above arguments, it's his idea of an AI that is taken as a given in EA circles. ​ So as I explained, there is no multimillion "center for pointing out that AGI x-risk is overblown nonsense". The [presentation I linked above](https://idlewords.com/talks/superintelligence.htm) gives some rapid-fire arguments. Nostalgebraist is an ML researcher with a [series of posts](https://nostalgebraist.tumblr.com/post/698045223162593280/taking-a-break-from-ai-discourse) on why the x-riskers assumptions about AI are just weird. There was a [debunking](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/6SGqkCgHuNr7d4yJm/thoughts-on-the-singularity-institute-si) of the singularity institute by Holden karnofsky, but he's since drunken the koolaid. I've also written posts pointing out that even under most of their assumptions, AGI would still be a [buggy piece of shit](https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/pXjpZep49M6GGxFQF/the-first-agi-will-be-a-buggy-mess) that can be [easily constrained](https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/AoPR8BFrAFgGGN9iZ/chaining-the-evil-genie-why-outer-ai-safety-is-probably-easy).
Thanks for your thoughts. Let's separate the claims and focus only on the 'AGI very bad' claim, ignoring the claims about how soon AGI will be coming. I think that there are some compelling reasons to think that 'runaway AGI' scenarios are possible, if only because the history of technology has shown us that large, complex technical systems often produce industrial accidents at scale that their managers and designers were incapable of predicting. See for example the history of US military carriers, power grids, or nuclear energy. None of this is to validate the extreme doomerism that Yud is spouting, but just to suggest that building a very powerful AI that is plugged into critical infrastructure does seem to me like an obviously risky potentiality. I think there is probably a middle-road between the lip service paid to AI safety by large tech providers and the schizo millenianarinism in LessWrong, but it is not obvious to me that the conversations are being had with much rigor. Even if EA / LW crowd is very wrong about the scale of the risk, I don't think they are wrong to worry that this kind of technology could result in serious accidents. This brings me back to the significance of the utility function. I actually do think that the AGI risk case Bostrom unpacks relies heavily on the idea that utility functions are a real and true description of how speculative AGIs would be driven to act. I don't know why we would cede this ground to them, as it seems to be rooted in a lot of other priors relating to game theory and rational choice that deserve to be questioned—that is kind of what I'm looking for. Running with your example, I think the paperclip case looks obviously silly. But let us imagine the case of an AGI that manages a complex power grid for efficiency or cost reasons. This does not to me seem out of the scope of possibility, perhaps we do not even need 'AGI' to get there. Now if we concede the 'utility function' framing drawn by Bostrom, I think we are getting into the territory of beginning to accept some of their other premises... Your point is that the AGI will turn off because it has been given a clear limit, I think the concern is that in the pursuit of efficiency, control of critical infrastructure may be delegated to autonomous systems whose utility function consists more of a general 'optimize' goal than a specific benchmark for performance as in your example. If an AGI is simply tasked with optimizing the performance of the grid, we might have more reason to expect it will behave in unpredictable or dangerous ways. The alignment anxiety framing of this is in terms of 'instrumental convergence.' I will check out your posts as well as Nostalgebraist, but I'm surprised there are no more rigorous academic takedowns of Bostrom's arguments, perhaps I will have to do my own searching. I am not really compelled by the claim that 'well it's just obviously dumb so nobody bothers to write about it.' As you point out, lots of money is now flowing into this field. Many prominent figures who are developing AI (such as OpenAI researchers like Paul) seem to have totally drunk the Yud / Bostrom koolaid. These people are literally building and funding the next generation of technology, so why is it so hard to find a literature base that contests their ideas? Perhaps I need to turn back to Google scholar, as I'm sure Bostrom has met challenges from other philosophers, but what I was hoping to get was an academic-quality critique that accounts both for key first principles / priors and contemporary developments (e.g. transformers / LLMs). Once again thanks for taking the time. Will be sure to read your stuff.
>I don't think they are wrong to worry that this kind of technology could result in serious accidents. I don't think anyone here actually disputes that, as a fairly leftist sub we tend to have low trust in companies avoiding negative externalities. Badly deployed AI has already likely killed people, for example in the form of youtube algorithms radicalising terrorists. But this is a far way aways from "AI will inevitabily kill us all", which is the justification for millions and millions of EA donations. This at all follows from just having a utility function. For example, even if the electricity optimiser actually *does* decide to enslave humanity, there is no guarantee it wouldn't fail horribly at such a task, for which it was not at all optimised for. I'm not familiar with philosophical critique of bostrom, for I am not a philosopher. I am a physicist, and there the situation pretty much is in the "noone bothers" camp. Nobody is going to put out a paper to debunk EY's ridiculous "[AI invents gen rel from a blade of grass](https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/dsb0cw/yudkowsky_classic_a_bayesian_superintelligence/)" post, because it's total bullshit. Perhaps the closest thing would be the [drexler vs smalley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drexler%E2%80%93Smalley_debate_on_molecular_nanotechnology) debate on some of the ridiculous nanotech claims that some takeover scenarios rely upon.
Also... Anyone following the machine learning scene knows that AI safety isn't considered that big of a problem. There are very few prestige academics working on that "problem" which strongly implies that it's idiotic.
Well the entire nature of the problem is speculative. Leading researchers in ML don't work in academia, they work at private companies now, that's where the breakthroughs happen. There is money to be made improving models towards AGI, not in writing philosophical essays speculating about alignment. Once again, let's imagine we do have highly capable 'strong' AI one day, which can perform or outperform humans at many tasks. Let's imagine these AI systems are used to manage critical infrastructure. I guess I don't see why the concern over accidents in this space is not a relevant issue? I don't think the fact that minimal private sector money has been allocated to solving alignment shows that it is not a potentially significant area of study. I'd rather hear the arguments against alignment. If it is as dumb as you and others on this sub say, I wonder why it is so difficult to get people here to refute some of the first principles.
You sound like a concern troll. Also, I won't waste my time arguing something that isn't taken seriously at all in the academic world (see Brandolini's law). How many citations does Eliezer's most cited paper have? Like 10? Impactful ML papers usually range around tens of thousands. I have no problem reading about this Doomsday cult from a purely entertaining stand point though.
What are you talking about? OpenAI was explicitly started as an alignment company with clear LessWrong influence. Now they are developing the SOTA partnered exclusively with Microsoft. The rollout of AI policies to users is downstream of alignment, as evidenced by Paul working at OpenAI and posting constantly on LessWrong. I don't like LessWrong either, but to act like alignment isn't a serious issue academically is to pretend the last few years of ML did not even happen. And just to preempt you, here's a recent paper on alignment with 120+ citations. Just because Yud is not authoring the actual ML research, does not mean that LW-adjacent ideas are not very much making their way into the leaders of the AI market.
> with clear LessWrong influence Interesting... Give me **one** reference from OpenAI to LessWrong. > I don't like LessWrong either, but to act like alignment isn't a serious issue academically is to pretend the last few years of ML did not even happen. Okay. Which one is your favourite paper about AI Alignment and how many citations does it have? Nvm saw your post. 120 citations. Wow... "Attention is all you need" released 2016 I think. It has 20k+ citations...
Lmao. You're just trolling at this point. Attention is probably the most cited paper in ML period at this point. You know multiple LessWrong posters / alignment guys have literally worked at OpenAI publishing alignment research right? OpenAI are literally the ones putting attention into practice right now, and you don't see it as significant that they are infected by LW ideology and making active hires / policy decisions based on alignment bullshit... Not worth engaging with you, you clearly didn't read my other posts or comments either
As I said. You said that LW **clearly** has influenced OpenAI's work. Then it should be really simple to find **one** reference from OpenAI to LW. My guess is that you won't though. And no, there are a lot of other similarly cited papers. GANs, CNN etc etc.
Do you know how it would look for them to cite less wrong lol? It’s a forum. The point is that people who work there clearly read it, and it influences who they hire. They literally hire LW posters to work on alignment. Same goes for crossover with Eleuther. I don’t even understand what your point is. You seem to think we should pretend nobody is working on alignment that matters, but the mere existence of OpenAI is already proof that the people that matter are very concerned with alignment. Even if we cut less wrong out of the picture, my original question about arguments against alignment priors is still very relevant.
Yeah. If they cited LessWrong they would look look like the people and thoughts associated with LW. Or is it a conspiracy? But you still hold the position that they have been **strongly** been influenced by OpenAI but they can't cite them because it "looks" bad. Sound reasonable..
The point is they do not cite an internet forum because they want to cite other academics and produce formal research, but the LessWrong forum is the place where OpenAI employees go to post informally about their work. It gives a lot of insight into how they think. All this is in the open you're just not informed. Alright. Just because I'm bored. Here's OpenAI's recent statement on alignment: [https://openai.com/blog/our-approach-to-alignment-research/](https://openai.com/blog/our-approach-to-alignment-research/) Now look at the authors. 2/3 of them are LW posters LOL. And if you read the actual statement, you will notice that it repeats the LW / Bostrom view on AI existential risk... exactly why I made the original post [https://www.lesswrong.com/users/john-schulman](https://www.lesswrong.com/users/john-schulman) [https://www.greaterwrong.com/users/janleike](https://www.greaterwrong.com/users/janleike) Paul Christiano is a prolific lesswrong poster who ran OpenAI's LLM alignment team until recently. His academic papers have been cited thousands of times but here is one of his LW posts on Yud [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/CoZhXrhpQxpy9xw9y/where-i-agree-and-disagree-with-eliezer](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/CoZhXrhpQxpy9xw9y/where-i-agree-and-disagree-with-eliezer) Here is more proof of the crossover: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Tk5ovpucaqweCu4tu/scott-aaronson-is-joining-openai-to-work-on-ai-safety If you don't see that rationalism / EA / alignment theory / whatever you want to call it has made its way into silicon valley AI firms you have lost the plot bro. you're wasting my time and distracting from the meaningful content of the post. Other comments were way better.
I haven't said that there's **no** talk about alignment. It's just a **very** very small part of AI.
https://arxiv.org/abs/2203.02155
No they have self-interest to NOT work in AI safety because it could regulate and hinder their progress. Very foolish to have the bomb makers regulate the bombs.

Katja Grace has a really comprehensive piece here: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/zoWypGfXLmYsDFivk/counterarguments-to-the-basic-ai-risk-case

Rohin Shah has a great discussion on the use/misuse of utility functions in AI discussions: https://www.alignmentforum.org/s/4dHMdK5TLN6xcqtyc/p/DfcywmqRSkBaCB6Ma

Magnus Vinding also has some really good critiques of common assumptions in AI takeover scenarios: https://magnusvinding.com/category/artificial-intelligence/

IMO, both proponents and opponents of prioritizing AI safety tend to have big blind spots and unwarranted confidence, so it’s cool that you’re going out of your way to read a lot :)

Oh, also Eric Drexler has argued for a while that advanced AI systems will not be goal-directed, but more like tools akin to Google Maps. Not sure if his thinking has changed since then but here's a 2018 video: https://www.effectivealtruism.org/articles/ea-global-2018-reframing-superintelligence
Thank you this is all great stuff. Exactly what I’m looking for
Strong propos for actually linking relevant texts.

Check out the Increments podcast. They have some really good critical episodes on AGI/Longtermism, they strike me as basically being what EA used to be, nerds who want to give money to mosquito nets and that kind of thing.

This looks dope thanks

I appreciate this thread - thank you for posting, OP. I’d love to know about what else you find, if you’d be willing to share in comments when/if you come across resources you find helpful.

Yes will do. Some of the comments in here link great resources

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I don’t think this sub is in the business of advertising LessWrong *in particular* for any reason
Would a rehosting of the two above posts without linking to lesswrong be appropriate? I read both before the comment was deleted and found them valuable and they seem like they would be valuable to others.
Helpful is a pleasant side effect of this sub, which is not a place to post advertisements for self-serving-crit by those people
Oh ok so is my comment against the sub's rules? Should I remove it?
It’s not against the rules, it’s just that I already removed it
Cheers ✌️
Well could someone DM me what he posted? I didn't even get a chance to see it.

Point out that their insistence that actual probability of a Singularity forming is irrelevant (due to how high the risks/rewards are) is an EXACT mirror of Pascal’s wager, they’ll hate that.

On top of that, the idea that an AGI will have an “intelligence factor” quantifiable as G, which can scale arbitrarily high based on amount of processing power thrown at it, and that in turn, the higher G goes, the greater its ability to solve arbitrarily complex problems, and that the AGI will actually choose to self-iterate like that, and that its initial hardware and power will allow it to do so to a meaningful extent… all these are absolutely necessary premises for MIRI-style AGI Risk to be a problem worthy of serious effort, and they are all actually a hugely specious pile of nonsense if you look too close.

“I am very smart and it makes me persuasive, and I’d choose to self-iterate and take over the world, and the AI would be even smarter than me!” is pretty much the closest they come to trying to justify any of them.