- cross-posted to:
- gaming@lemmy.zip
- cross-posted to:
- gaming@lemmy.zip
The TL;DR is that the organization that controls the HDMI standard won’t allow any open source implementation of HDMI 2.1.
So the hardware is fully capable of it, but they’ll get in trouble if them officially implement it.
Instead it’s officially HDMI 2 (which maxes out at 4k @ 60Hz), but through a technique called chroma sub-sampling they’ve been able to raise that up to 4k @ 120Hz.
However there are some minor reductions in picture quality because of this, and the whole thing would be much easier if the HDMI forum would be more consumer friendly.
In the meantime, the Steam Machine also has display port as a completely issue free display option.
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DisplayPort rocks
Yeah fuck the video codec mafia and all these proprietary shits like HDMI
Fun fact, all of the audio codes are proprietary too. You won’t find a HDMI surround sound splitter on Aliexpress. Say no to HDMI, say no to E-ARC.
You know it reminds me of the academic publishing mafia of Elsevier and the like
Both cartels are leeching off often-publicly funded research.
I used to find it took forever to start showing a picture compared to HDMI on my PC. Getting a new GPU so maybe that will improve things.
What display are you using as well? That sounds quite unusual.
If you can find anything to connect it to.
fuck HDMI
all my homies hate HDMI
Why?
You can look up most of the issues with the standard, but TL;DR: DRM, expensive licensing fees, suboptimal performance compared to DisplayPort, and not able to be implemented in FOSS or even OSS systems (because of the shitty DRM which can be circumvented by an AliExpress splitter lmao)
CEC is not standard even though it should be a standard for hdmi.
Is this why DisplayPort looks better for me on Linux???
Yes. DP is the right choice for civilized people.
Yep it’s pretty much better in all regards.
The only downside is no ARC support, but I suppose support for that is pretty hit or miss anyway.
Honestly arc is a great idea that never seems to work for me. I’ll always be RIGHT there, but my Blu-ray player turns on randomly when I’m doing something else, or something like that. So I end up turning it off.
HDMI needs to die.
AMD already spent a significant amount of effort implementing HDMI2.1 in their open driver in such a way that it would be compliment. The suits from HDMI consortium still said No.
https://www.phoronix.com/news/HDMI-2.1-OSS-Rejected
AMD Linux engineers have spent months working with their legal team and evaluating all HDMI features to determine if/how they can be exposed in their open-source driver. AMD had code working internally and then the past few months were waiting on approval from the HDMI Forum… Sadly, the HDMI Forum has turned down AMD’s request for open-source driver support.
AMD Linux engineer Alex Deucher commented on the ticket:
"The HDMI Forum has rejected our proposal unfortunately. At this time an open source HDMI 2.1 implementation is not possible without running afoul of the HDMI Forum requirements."I hated HMDI when it came out, and I continue to hate it.
I tried to stick with DP only, but the tvs with it are getting rarer and much more expensive.
Buy monitors instead. Also saves you the headache of dealing with “smart TV” bullshit.
Do you know of any big dumb TVs or monitors that I could buy in Europe? I only know of Sceptre TVs which are mostly meant for businesses and storefronts but they are extremely hard to get in Europe.
Biggest I found is the Acer Nitro XV275KP3 Gaming Monitor. You kinda pay gaming hardware prices, but given the support for up to 120Hz and HDR10, I was OK with that. It’s mostly used for gaming, anyway.
It used to be that beamers were a way to sidestep the “smart” bullshit, but they started adding that, too. Even the business ones.A 27" monitor will not be anywhere near a replacement for 60" TV, I’m afraid.
That one is 27". I think that’s way too small for the living room. I also consider 120hz to be overkill for some couch gaming and movies.
Do let me know if you find something more suited.
If you don’t need 120Hz, you don’t need HDMI 2.1. You can get 4k @ 60Hz with the HDMI 2.0 that the Steam Machine has, so you can use just any TV.
The question was for a dumb TV and not just any TV.
Hard to find monitors larger than a certain size that aren’t exorbitantly expensive, and I do like a large screen when it comes to Couch Gaming and watching TV (well, streaming video, I ain’t gonna pay for a TV license just to watch the one terrestrial TV show I actually care about)
While I agree, I think you might not find a monitor that sitze. tvs and monitors have different use cases:
Monitor:
- High dpi
- Low distance to viewer
- Must support high resolution, high frame rate for games
- Must be compact enough for a desk
TV:
- low dpi
- greater distance to viewer
- 120hz and 1080 resolution enough for most movies and shows
- price and size more important than technical aspects.
Unfortunately, many large monitors are becoming “smart” now.
And what do you use?
Component RCA like god intended
Displayport
DisplayPort?
I see.
DVI, of course
Capitalism is so cool dude I love having inferior transit of 1s and 0s because some group of leeches in California own the shape that those 1s and 0s pass through
I so wish they only gave a complementary display cable and not an HDMI.
I’m honestly surprised TV OEMs haven’t bothered to at least try throwing in DisplayPort, especially during the period of time it far exceeded the highest possible quality on HDMI.
HDMI is just the last hardware standard created from the ashes of the format wars that has no practical place anymore. It only exists to collect hostage licensing fees.
Tv oems are the ones that set up the hdmi club. They want the content encrypted with drm, from transit, to your pc, to your cable, to your screen. Look up the analog hole. This battle has been going on for 20 years. Share this with interested people.
I don’t know why they’d think I’d capture 600MB/s of uncompressed video though.
Since the torrent sites are crammed with full quality 4k Bluray remuxes and WebDLs direct from Amazon, there’s clearly easier and better ways of doing this than putting encryption in a cable.
I don’t know why they’d think I’d capture 600MB/s of uncompressed video though.
Pirating live streams of sport event, which is a huge business.
Oh, they are working on that too. Win 11 depends on TPM modules, and it’s not by mistake. Once they have the full software and hardware pipeline, they can control the media we see (for profit, but also for authoritarism because the jump is so small).
I love that you’re talking about these issues, but the TPM has nothing to do with any of this. It’s also not a hard requirement for Windows 11 (even though that’s basically all the media was talking about).
The TPM included DRM as its objective 20 years ago. They backtracked at that moment because of serious backslash. Now, it’s present and a dependency. Then, it will be needed for banking. Afterwards, for social media and social credit like in China.
If you think they are going to stop where we are…
I think you’re confusing TPM (Trusted Platform Module) with TEE (Trusted Execution Environment).
If not, I’d love some links to read about that TPM with DRM from 20 years ago. However… I don’t know, why would there be backlash about something that has then been implemented anyway, just in TEE instead?
HDCP (the DRM HDMI uses) is interface-agnostic though? It works over DisplayPort, heck it even works over DVI. I think that makes your argument about DRM fall apart, though TV OEMs did indeed promote the adoption of HDMI.
Because TV OEMs are the ones in the HDMI consortium.
I really wish I could find a TV within my desired specs that had DisplayPort. We will buy a Steam Machine to use it in place of our docked Steam Deck in the living room, so being able to use DP would be amazing.
Adapting DisplayPort to HDMI with minimal quality loss is child’s play. It’s the other way around that’s misery.
Any cheap adapter cable that supports DisplayPort In to HDMI Out should be perfectly fine.
But the big thing with HDMI 2.1 is the cec protocol which doesn’t translate over an adapter unfortunately. But it is a very tiny thing most people won’t care about.
I just realized I have such cable in my desk (brand new), DP to HDMI 4k 60fps
My spouse need something for the other way around for his desk setup
Those specs sound like HDMI 2 anyway. HDMI 2.1 can do 4K @ 144Hz with HDR. Or apparently even 10K @ 120Hz.
Would be cool if they put one in the box. Would save many sad christmas days as you wait for Amazon to come round with an adapter.
i want to say you can buy an adapter to get dp 1.4 out of steam machine and into hdmi 2.1 on a tv and should be fine. just has to be a powered adapter i believe
The powered adapters are for the other way around. DP has support for HDMI out without additional components, but ofc the HDMI forum makes converting HDMI to DP like pulling teeth.
You also need a powered adapter for HDMI 2.1 in this case. The passive adapters work, because the DP output on the computer usually supports switching to HDMI output. But for that to work, the driver must support it, so it has the same problem as the HDMI port (which supports 2.1 on a hardware level, but not with AMDs open source drivers)
Countdown until some community member patches 2.1 support in
Not that easy.
To get HDMI 2.1 support for the Gabe Cube itself essentially requires kernel level patches. Which on a “normal” Linux device is possible (but ill advised) but on these atomic distros where even something like syncthing involves shenanigans to keep active week to week? Ain’t happening. Because HDMI is not just mapping data to pins and using the right codecs. There are a LOT of handshakes involved along the way (which is also the basis for HDCP which essentially all commercial streaming services utilize to some degree).
There ARE methods (that I have personally used) to take a DP->HDMI dongle and flash a super sketchy Chinese (the best source for sketchy tech) firmware to effectively cheat the handshakes. It isn’t true HDMI 2.1 but it provides VRR and “good enough for 2025” HDR at 4k/120Hz. But… I would wager money that is violating at least one law or another.
So expect a lot of those “This ini change fixes all of Windows 11. Just give money to my patreon for it” level fixes. And… idiots will believe it since you can use a dongle to already get like HDMI 2.05 or whatever with no extra effort. And there will likely be a LOT of super sketchy dongles on AliExpress that come pre-flashed that get people up to 2.09 (which is genuinely good enough for most people). But it is gonna be a cluster.
And that is why all of us with AMD NUCs already knew what a clusterfuck this was going to be.
There are also ways to fake the handshake in software. I personally did not try that but from what I have seen on message boards? It is VERY temporary (potentially having to redo every single time you change inputs on your TV/receiver) and it is unclear if the folk who think it works actually tested anything or just said “My script printed out ‘Handshake Successful’, it works with this game that doesn’t even output HDR!”
Cable Matters sells plenty of different DP->HDMI 2.1 adapters that work with VRR. The main issue here is that you won’t get CEC if you use those.
I have one of these, but I don’t believe they work with HDMI 2.1 VRR (or at least I’ve never been able to get it to work).
With a LG B9, I have both G-Sync and HDMI 2.1 VRR support, but no FreeSync. I can get most of the HDMI 2.1 feature set working with a DP->HDMI 2.1 adapter, except for any form of VRR. That’s with a RX 9070, but similar situation on a 6800 XT previously.Yeah. If you just want HDR, Cable Matters is the way to go.
If you buy one and flash it with a sketchy firmware, you can get VRR. But my understanding is the HDR is a smaller range. How much that matters when the vast majority of games aren’t taking advantage of HDR is up to you.
Personally? I love how much HDR pops. I more or less need VRR to not have to care about frame tearing and the like. And when I am running games on an underpowered glorified AMD NUC (or, in my case, ACTUALLY an AMD NUC)… my framerates are neither high nor stable.
I care about HDR (on Linux) way less than I do VRR in general.
Is that the “sketchy” firmware you’re referring to?I’m explicitly not going to link to it as I can’t personally vet how safe it is or its origins but:
No. Check the various issues related to the subject matter. And hobbyist threads on sites like resetera.
a super sketchy Chinese (the best source for sketchy tech)
Russian is also good
Ukrainians had a reputation for being the best source for cracks for the DRM on farming and construction equipment that prevented third-party repairs and modifications.
(There’s a reason farmers are one of the biggest groups pushing for Right to Repair.)
Ooh true
on these atomic distros where even something like syncthing involves shenanigans to keep active week to week? Ain’t happening.
I don’t see why you couldn’t kexec into a new kernel. kexec will load a kernel into memory from an already running kernel, and jump into it. It’ll suck for the user as they’ll have to semi-reboot everytime they want HDMI 2.1, but it’s easy and doesn’t install anything.
There’s also live patching, but I think that’ll be a bit of work.
Of course the kernel needs to be compiled with those options enabled, but most distros do.
Edit: And they probably won’t work with kernel lockdown/secure boot.
If would need to be patched in on Linux kernel level, which is annoying to say the least.
Fuck HDMI! All my homies use DisplayPort.
Unfortunately my TV is not one of your homies.
The main feature of Hdmi has always been DRM.
I would normally prefer no hdmi at all, but it’s an entry point device so it doesn’t really make sense to do that.
Pfft. People using monitors or tvs. I just plug into it and play it in my head.
That’s what the Steam Frame is for.
Better Than Life™
We need to normalize this kind of headline:
“The HDMI Forum, whatever the fuck that means, refuses to support open source software development.”
