They’ll actually cheer on for those death squads. If they had their way, they would have their own death squads. Marxists are infamous for their tyranny, genocide, forced deportations, engineered famines, purges, labor camps, hate, and secret police death squads.
Marxism and fascism are sister ideologies because they ultimately want the same things but just from slightly different angles.
There have been a lot of killings and deaths that were intentionally to further goals that were claimed to be Marxist; Lenin and Stalin both had a lot of blood on their hands, as did Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Fidel Castro (after the revolution, I mean), and so on.
Authoritarian communism ends up being pretty bad for people that communist in the wrong way, along with everyone that isn’t communist.
Feels like colonialist capitalism has been pretty bad for an awful lot of people that aren’t the owning class too… What with the MANY genocides and the CIA
Sure, it absolutely has, and the CIA and American foreign policy has done some truly awful things. But there’s scale and scope as well; the American gov’t, by and large, hasn’t been jailing political dissidents solely for political dissent since the 30s or so. Political dissidents don’t tend to end up committing suicide by falling out of 1st floor windows, or drowning in bathtubs. We don’t arrest or dissappear anyone running against the president. We haven’t had concentration camps for our own citizens since the 40s (and hoo boy, those were pretty fucking awful, and we should be ashamed of them).
Not true at all, I have zero issues with people who think differently. However, I do take big issues with these two failed authoritarian ideologies that ended killing tens of millions each and brought nothing but misery everywhere they went. As it turns there’s more to politics than these two shitty ideologies
So naturally you realize that, despite authoritarian “communism” as practiced by the Soviet Union and China, inspired by Marxist-Leninist thinking and then by Stalin and Mao are just one interpretation of Marxism (which is one interpretation of communism/socialist theory) that diverged significantly in embracing something more resembling state capitalism and enduring dictatorship, whereas Marx viewed the dictatorship of the proletariat as simply describing the revolutionary transition to a classless society.
Actually, not true. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels were both notorious authoritarians, and it reflects pretty heavily in their ideology. They were both well known for being very pro violence and pro power grabs, so much so that they were infamous for it. They’re pretty well documented for the ways they used to mock pacifist socialists at the time for not being as extreme and violent as they are. Socialism as a concept has a lot of different interpretations, but Marxism? Not so much.
Potentially violent revolution =/= authoritarian. Also Marx believed that in more democratic and free nations that nonviolent ways of achieving communism was actually plausible, he just didn’t believe so for most of the world. He just had very little faith in existing power structures allowing the proletariat majority to take power away from them nonviolently, especially outside of a few already very “left” leaning democracies.
Damn dude, stop making me argue in favor of pure Marxism, I’m not even a communist, I’m just a bit left of social Democrats personally.
Marxism didn’t stop at the revolution though. Marxism can be simplified to 3 overarching steps:
A violent revolution that overthrows capitalism where the economy is seized, capitalists are eliminated, and capitalist institutions are burned down (literally and metaphorically).
The dictatorship of the proletariat is established. This is where a transitional authoritarian socialist government takes hold of the states and rules with an iron fist to establish socialism and bring about the social climate necessary to achieve communism by any means necessary.
Actually realize communism
Since step 3 is a utopia that won’t ever happen, the ideology will always end up at step two. That’s why every single Marxist attempt that hasn’t failed during the revolution phase will inevitably hit a brick wall when a the tyrannical transitional government gets hold and never leaves. All the tyrannical regimes we’ve seen aren’t coincidences, they’re an integral part of the Marxist ideology. Maoist China is what Marxism looks like when it’s implemented down to the letter… and it ain’t pretty. Again, both Marx and Engels were both very vocal and notorious authoritarians who specifically advocated for this stuff. They went out of their way to mock and criticize pacifist socialists who wanted to make progress without bloodshed via things like reform. This isn’t some secret, it’s pretty well documented.
A violent revolution that overthrows capitalism where the economy is seized, capitalists are eliminated, and capitalist institutions are burned down (literally and metaphorically).
Marxists believe revolution is inevitable as long as Capitalism is not transitioned from willingly, as a consequence of Capitalism itself. Secondly, killing the bourgeoisie is not a necessary step, removing the apparatus that entails their positions, ie private property rights, is necessary. Thirdly, “Capitalist Institutions” being burned down is vague and likely not what Marxists believe. Replacing, or reconfiguring them along collectivized lines, sure, burning for the sake of burning, no.
The dictatorship of the proletariat is established. This is where a transitional authoritarian socialist government takes hold of the states and rules with an iron fist to establish socialism and bring about the social climate necessary to achieve communism by any means necessary.
The Dictatorship of the Proletariat is simply democracy with the proletariat in control, and the Bourgeoisie suppressed. This is a direct counter to the modern Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie, such as what is found in America. The idea of it being “authoritarian” is only true with respect to Capitalists, it is a more democratic state for more people. The phrase “iron fist” is also loaded, in reality it means Capitalists cannot be allowed to take back control. Same with the phrase “by any means necessary,” it’s just fearmongering.
Actually realize communism
Sure, this is correct.
Since step 3 is a utopia that won’t ever happen, the ideology will always end up at step two.
That’s unfounded. Reading Critique of the Gotha Programme gives an idea of what Marxists actually believe can be done to achieve Communism, it isn’t an impossibility but it also isn’t a utopia like you claim. It’s certainly a better society, but not one with infinite replicators or anything.
That’s why every single Marxist attempt that hasn’t failed during the revolution phase will inevitably hit a brick wall when a the tyrannical transitional government gets hold and never leaves.
Marx himself never believed Communism was about government “deciding” to leave, but the State as defined by Marx would wither. Government as we commonly understand it would still exist in Communism!
All the tyrannical regimes we’ve seen aren’t coincidences, they’re an integral part of the Marxist ideology. Maoist China is what Marxism looks like when it’s implemented down to the letter… and it ain’t pretty.
More vibes based, generally. What metric is the distinction between “tyrannical” and “fair and democratic?” Are there any non-tyrannical states, in your eyes?
Again, both Marx and Engels were both very vocal and notorious authoritarians who specifically advocated for this stuff. They went out of their way to mock and criticize pacifist socialists who wanted to make progress without bloodshed via things like reform. This isn’t some secret, it’s pretty well documented.
They ended up being correct, reform has never once worked in the favor of the Proletariat in establishing Socialism. The closest was Allende in Chile, and he was couped by the US within 2 years of democratically taking office.
probably getting shot for not wearing enough religious flair. Any half decent strategist knows you only choose the quick path when you have overwhelming power.
There’s a 100% chance that I know more about than you… You know since I’ve actually studied both in college. But I’m sure an armchair professor such yourself with a PhD from Lemmy’s echo chambers knows better than my professors.
Nope, a respected public University in New England.
If you did, you’d actually sound as if you knew anything about the subject matter at hand.
Your entire argument here boils down to “nuh-uh”, which is absolutely meaningless. If you have actual criticisms then stop beating around the bush and get on with it. Otherwise, I have no interest in whatever this is.
Well it’s quite simple really, you have three choices:
Fascism: A failed murderous ideology in both theory and practice that has killed tens of million and has done nothing but bring tyranny, poverty, famine, hate, and genocide everywhere it went.
Marxism: A failed murderous ideology in both theory and practice that has killed tens of million and has done nothing but bring tyranny, poverty, famine, hate, and genocide everywhere it went.
Neoliberalism: A very flawed ideology that takes economic freedom to an extreme and puts too much faith in unregulated free markets.
You can’t argue, period. Marxism can’t be argued for on its own merits. It needs fallacies, enemies, violence, and censorship to keep itself from collapsing.
If you want to see Marxism in China then look no further than Maoist China. That was true socialism implemented down to the letter… And it was one of the biggest disasters in human history.
Tankie in 1956: Getting into your T-90 and driving across the Hungarian border to brutally suppress an uprising of (coughnationalcough) socialists protesting Soviet occupation
Tankie in 2024: Getting into your PSA Bronto and doing donuts in your neighborhood cul de sac blaring “Don’t Vote for Joe Biden” out of a megaphone, until police show up and drag you off to prison for violating a noise ordinance.
Wish the people emulating (knowingly or unknowingly) the ideology of Ernst Thälmann would look a little harder at how that worked out for both Germany and him.
Wishing the people emulating (knowingly or unknowingly) the ideology of the SDP would look a little harder at how backing Hindenburg instead of Thälmann worked out for both Germany and them.
Ok, first of all it’s the SPD, the SDP is the UK. Oh yeah, obviously it was the moderate democratic socialists who supported democracy that were to blame and not the stalinists who openly allied with Nazis to dismantle the democratic government. And guess what, most of the KPD that made it to the Soviet Union were killed by Stalin or handed back to the Gestapo anyways, what great people they followed.
The KPD declared the SPD their greatest enemy, not the other way around.
I will concede the KPD responded more appropriately to Hitler taking power, but it was too fucking late then anyways. Even the KPD internal resistance had pretty limited effect. At least the SPD operated the government in exile.
The SPD was more than happy to paint the KPD as their enemies as well, the rift between them started with the SPD’s unconditional support of WWI and violent suppression of antiwar efforts. The KPD did not ever “openly ally with the Nazis,” that’s just a bold faced lie.
Somehow, the only people who tried to stop both world wars, and the only people running an anti-Hitler candidate in 1932 get painted as the bad guys. It’s absurd the kinds of mental gymnastics you have to go through to get there.
“In August 1931, to capitalise on their growing popularity, the Nazi Party launched a referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia. At first the KPD correctly attacked it. Then, three weeks before the vote, under orders from Stalin’s Comintern, they joined forces with the fascists to bring down the main enemy, the Social Democrats. They changed the name of the plebiscite to a ‘Red Referendum’ and referred to the fascists and the members of the SA as ‘working people’s comrades’!”
http://www.marxist.com/germany-sewell-chapter-7.htm
My dude, they absolutely did, the KPD enabled Stalin to facilitate the rise to power of the Nazis by allying with them to fight the SPD. Fuck Tankies.
The SPD were just as happy to equate the KPD with the Nazis as the KPD was to call the SPD social fascists.
Voting alongside the Nazis on a referendum is not the same thing as “openly allying with the Nazis.” The status quo at the time was austerity in the middle of a massive economic crisis, it was fundamentally unsustainable. The KPD didn’t want the Nazis to be able to dominate opposition to that. It’s true that they underestimated them, but the answer was not (as the SPD did) throwing their weight behind austerity measures for the sake of stability, it wouldn’t have changed a single thing if they had.
It still remains the fact that the person who put Hitler into power was Hindenburg, who was backed by the SPD.
The thing is, i promised my mom and my history teacher id never vote for a genocider, so my hands are tied. If dems want to run someone who isnt the literal definition of evil, i wouldnt have to vote for trump. Its insane how dems love to use the lesser evil argument right up until theyre convincing us to vote for a genocider.
powerful “leopards eating faces” energy from the tankies. I wish them luck with the anti-communist death squads outlined in project 2025
They’re Tankies, their entire ideology is feline face eating based. Russia SO KNOWN for how well it treats minorities and LGBT people!
They’ll actually cheer on for those death squads. If they had their way, they would have their own death squads. Marxists are infamous for their tyranny, genocide, forced deportations, engineered famines, purges, labor camps, hate, and secret police death squads.
Marxism and fascism are sister ideologies because they ultimately want the same things but just from slightly different angles.
I’m not sure you know what Marxism or Fascism are… I think you just think everyone who doesn’t think like you is pure evil.
There have been a lot of killings and deaths that were intentionally to further goals that were claimed to be Marxist; Lenin and Stalin both had a lot of blood on their hands, as did Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Fidel Castro (after the revolution, I mean), and so on.
Authoritarian communism ends up being pretty bad for people that communist in the wrong way, along with everyone that isn’t communist.
Feels like colonialist capitalism has been pretty bad for an awful lot of people that aren’t the owning class too… What with the MANY genocides and the CIA
Sure, it absolutely has, and the CIA and American foreign policy has done some truly awful things. But there’s scale and scope as well; the American gov’t, by and large, hasn’t been jailing political dissidents solely for political dissent since the 30s or so. Political dissidents don’t tend to end up committing suicide by falling out of 1st floor windows, or drowning in bathtubs. We don’t arrest or dissappear anyone running against the president. We haven’t had concentration camps for our own citizens since the 40s (and hoo boy, those were pretty fucking awful, and we should be ashamed of them).
Yes… No argument with that part.
Not true at all, I have zero issues with people who think differently. However, I do take big issues with these two failed authoritarian ideologies that ended killing tens of millions each and brought nothing but misery everywhere they went. As it turns there’s more to politics than these two shitty ideologies
So naturally you realize that, despite authoritarian “communism” as practiced by the Soviet Union and China, inspired by Marxist-Leninist thinking and then by Stalin and Mao are just one interpretation of Marxism (which is one interpretation of communism/socialist theory) that diverged significantly in embracing something more resembling state capitalism and enduring dictatorship, whereas Marx viewed the dictatorship of the proletariat as simply describing the revolutionary transition to a classless society.
Actually, not true. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels were both notorious authoritarians, and it reflects pretty heavily in their ideology. They were both well known for being very pro violence and pro power grabs, so much so that they were infamous for it. They’re pretty well documented for the ways they used to mock pacifist socialists at the time for not being as extreme and violent as they are. Socialism as a concept has a lot of different interpretations, but Marxism? Not so much.
Potentially violent revolution =/= authoritarian. Also Marx believed that in more democratic and free nations that nonviolent ways of achieving communism was actually plausible, he just didn’t believe so for most of the world. He just had very little faith in existing power structures allowing the proletariat majority to take power away from them nonviolently, especially outside of a few already very “left” leaning democracies.
Damn dude, stop making me argue in favor of pure Marxism, I’m not even a communist, I’m just a bit left of social Democrats personally.
Marxism didn’t stop at the revolution though. Marxism can be simplified to 3 overarching steps:
A violent revolution that overthrows capitalism where the economy is seized, capitalists are eliminated, and capitalist institutions are burned down (literally and metaphorically).
The dictatorship of the proletariat is established. This is where a transitional authoritarian socialist government takes hold of the states and rules with an iron fist to establish socialism and bring about the social climate necessary to achieve communism by any means necessary.
Actually realize communism
Since step 3 is a utopia that won’t ever happen, the ideology will always end up at step two. That’s why every single Marxist attempt that hasn’t failed during the revolution phase will inevitably hit a brick wall when a the tyrannical transitional government gets hold and never leaves. All the tyrannical regimes we’ve seen aren’t coincidences, they’re an integral part of the Marxist ideology. Maoist China is what Marxism looks like when it’s implemented down to the letter… and it ain’t pretty. Again, both Marx and Engels were both very vocal and notorious authoritarians who specifically advocated for this stuff. They went out of their way to mock and criticize pacifist socialists who wanted to make progress without bloodshed via things like reform. This isn’t some secret, it’s pretty well documented.
It’s painfully obvious you’ve never really engaged with Marx’s writings.
Marxists believe revolution is inevitable as long as Capitalism is not transitioned from willingly, as a consequence of Capitalism itself. Secondly, killing the bourgeoisie is not a necessary step, removing the apparatus that entails their positions, ie private property rights, is necessary. Thirdly, “Capitalist Institutions” being burned down is vague and likely not what Marxists believe. Replacing, or reconfiguring them along collectivized lines, sure, burning for the sake of burning, no.
The Dictatorship of the Proletariat is simply democracy with the proletariat in control, and the Bourgeoisie suppressed. This is a direct counter to the modern Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie, such as what is found in America. The idea of it being “authoritarian” is only true with respect to Capitalists, it is a more democratic state for more people. The phrase “iron fist” is also loaded, in reality it means Capitalists cannot be allowed to take back control. Same with the phrase “by any means necessary,” it’s just fearmongering.
Sure, this is correct.
That’s unfounded. Reading Critique of the Gotha Programme gives an idea of what Marxists actually believe can be done to achieve Communism, it isn’t an impossibility but it also isn’t a utopia like you claim. It’s certainly a better society, but not one with infinite replicators or anything.
Marx himself never believed Communism was about government “deciding” to leave, but the State as defined by Marx would wither. Government as we commonly understand it would still exist in Communism!
More vibes based, generally. What metric is the distinction between “tyrannical” and “fair and democratic?” Are there any non-tyrannical states, in your eyes?
They ended up being correct, reform has never once worked in the favor of the Proletariat in establishing Socialism. The closest was Allende in Chile, and he was couped by the US within 2 years of democratically taking office.
And where will you be? Standing on the sidelines letting it happen, or will you be the one to pull the trigger?
probably getting shot for not wearing enough religious flair. Any half decent strategist knows you only choose the quick path when you have overwhelming power.
Countries that aren’t the US of A exist.
Removed by mod
I would encourage Fascists and Marxist to destroy each other so the world can finally be free of these two parasitic ideologies.
I know right, neoliberalism is utopia. /s
Sure beats Marxism and Fascism
Rich… considering it’s coming from somebody who understands neither.
There’s a 100% chance that I know more about than you… You know since I’ve actually studied both in college. But I’m sure an armchair professor such yourself with a PhD from Lemmy’s echo chambers knows better than my professors.
Which college was that? Prager U, maybe?
If you did, you’d actually sound as if you knew anything about the subject matter at hand.
But you don’t - which means you didn’t.
Nope, a respected public University in New England.
Your entire argument here boils down to “nuh-uh”, which is absolutely meaningless. If you have actual criticisms then stop beating around the bush and get on with it. Otherwise, I have no interest in whatever this is.
How?
It’s killing us slower?
Well it’s quite simple really, you have three choices:
Fascism: A failed murderous ideology in both theory and practice that has killed tens of million and has done nothing but bring tyranny, poverty, famine, hate, and genocide everywhere it went.
Marxism: A failed murderous ideology in both theory and practice that has killed tens of million and has done nothing but bring tyranny, poverty, famine, hate, and genocide everywhere it went.
Neoliberalism: A very flawed ideology that takes economic freedom to an extreme and puts too much faith in unregulated free markets.
Sounds like a no brainer choice to me.
Broad generalizations, I can’t argue against that. Defeated by vaguery again.
You can’t argue, period. Marxism can’t be argued for on its own merits. It needs fallacies, enemies, violence, and censorship to keep itself from collapsing.
Your biases are showing, honey.
Good, I’m very biased against failed tyrannical ideologies.
Is that so?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform
If you want to see Marxism in China then look no further than Maoist China. That was true socialism implemented down to the letter… And it was one of the biggest disasters in human history.
deleted by creator
Tankie in 1956: Getting into your T-90 and driving across the Hungarian border to brutally suppress an uprising of (coughnationalcough) socialists protesting Soviet occupation
Tankie in 2024: Getting into your PSA Bronto and doing donuts in your neighborhood cul de sac blaring “Don’t Vote for Joe Biden” out of a megaphone, until police show up and drag you off to prison for violating a noise ordinance.
This is historically incorrect. The T-90 didn’t enter service until 1992. They would have gotten into T-54/55s or T-44. Possibly even T-34s?
Wish the people emulating (knowingly or unknowingly) the ideology of Ernst Thälmann would look a little harder at how that worked out for both Germany and him.
Wishing the people emulating (knowingly or unknowingly) the ideology of the SDP would look a little harder at how backing Hindenburg instead of Thälmann worked out for both Germany and them.
Ok, first of all it’s the SPD, the SDP is the UK. Oh yeah, obviously it was the moderate democratic socialists who supported democracy that were to blame and not the stalinists who openly allied with Nazis to dismantle the democratic government. And guess what, most of the KPD that made it to the Soviet Union were killed by Stalin or handed back to the Gestapo anyways, what great people they followed.
The KPD declared the SPD their greatest enemy, not the other way around.
I will concede the KPD responded more appropriately to Hitler taking power, but it was too fucking late then anyways. Even the KPD internal resistance had pretty limited effect. At least the SPD operated the government in exile.
The SPD was more than happy to paint the KPD as their enemies as well, the rift between them started with the SPD’s unconditional support of WWI and violent suppression of antiwar efforts. The KPD did not ever “openly ally with the Nazis,” that’s just a bold faced lie.
Somehow, the only people who tried to stop both world wars, and the only people running an anti-Hitler candidate in 1932 get painted as the bad guys. It’s absurd the kinds of mental gymnastics you have to go through to get there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Period It was pretty easy to paint them as the bad guys when they fully aligned with Stalin, before then, yeah, totally.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Germany#The_Third_Period_and_"social_fascism"
“In August 1931, to capitalise on their growing popularity, the Nazi Party launched a referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia. At first the KPD correctly attacked it. Then, three weeks before the vote, under orders from Stalin’s Comintern, they joined forces with the fascists to bring down the main enemy, the Social Democrats. They changed the name of the plebiscite to a ‘Red Referendum’ and referred to the fascists and the members of the SA as ‘working people’s comrades’!” http://www.marxist.com/germany-sewell-chapter-7.htm
My dude, they absolutely did, the KPD enabled Stalin to facilitate the rise to power of the Nazis by allying with them to fight the SPD. Fuck Tankies.
The SPD were just as happy to equate the KPD with the Nazis as the KPD was to call the SPD social fascists.
Voting alongside the Nazis on a referendum is not the same thing as “openly allying with the Nazis.” The status quo at the time was austerity in the middle of a massive economic crisis, it was fundamentally unsustainable. The KPD didn’t want the Nazis to be able to dominate opposition to that. It’s true that they underestimated them, but the answer was not (as the SPD did) throwing their weight behind austerity measures for the sake of stability, it wouldn’t have changed a single thing if they had.
It still remains the fact that the person who put Hitler into power was Hindenburg, who was backed by the SPD.
Are you basing your comment on the idea that stalin is as bad as hitler? Cause thats some ig’nant ass shit to see on lemmy.
The thing is, i promised my mom and my history teacher id never vote for a genocider, so my hands are tied. If dems want to run someone who isnt the literal definition of evil, i wouldnt have to vote for trump. Its insane how dems love to use the lesser evil argument right up until theyre convincing us to vote for a genocider.
I thought tankies live in countries like China and Russia.
Can you define US tankies please?