I think Blåhaj handled this person well over all. Even if Drag wad just 100% troll, drag wasn’t being fed in Blåhaj and had to go elsewhere. But also there was always the chance that drag is just someone on a journey or with things to sort out. Some people have completely given up on being any gender and treat it like a joke in an almost nihilistic way. But clearly there’s a line between that and an actual troll.
Either way, I wouldn’t say that it’s standard heterosexual cisgender behaviour to go as far as Drag did just for the lulz. So maybe one of these days, Drag will have an awakening and remember how no one in the community either fed drag or shunned drag when drag was confused and behaving badly.
If Drag was trolling, the troll was exposing how shallow non-binary acceptance is for your average “progressive.”
“Not feeding the troll” in that case is treating their request with a minimal level of respect, and that was simply too much inconvenience for 90% of Lemmy.world and a very potent reminder of why trans and enby folks need their own spaces.
Including some people in this thread with an axe to grind and no self awareness to stop it.
I personally don’t think they were a troll but I am also not sure I agree with banning people for not remembering or wanting to use their unusual pronouns.
But I am not well-educated on the topic of neopronouns so if someone feels like educating me or suggesting some readings I am open to it.
Was it dismissing or just not understanding? To be honest my recollection is a bit fuzzy.
I’m a little afraid to be having this conversation lest I be accused of prejudice against trans or nonbinary folks, a prejudice I try my best to fight against. But I don’t even understand the connection there since we already have well-established systems of pronouns for such people.
Personally, I truly can’t fathom why neopronouns are necessary and while I don’t want to disrespect anyone, they are so uncomfortable to use that it just makes me not want to address someone who uses them… especially when they are implicitly linked to having sex with non-human mythological creatures.
But maybe I am just ignorant. Drag was my first introduction to this concept. I’d like to learn more about this.
Some folk require understanding before they offer acceptance. Those folk will frame it as “just not understanding”. I frame that as lack of acceptance. Acceptance isn’t contingent on understanding. You or I not understanding an aspect of someone elses identity has nothing to do with the validity of their identity.
If you wish to ask someone questions about their pronouns and identity, you’re welcome to do so, but remember they don’t owe you an answer, and whether they offer you an answer or not, and whether you understand their perspective or not, either way, gatekeeping and invalidating their identity is not on.
they are so uncomfortable to use that it just makes me not want to address someone who uses them
That was the other option I offered folk. If someone has stated their pronouns, either use them, or if you can’t bring yourself to use them, don’t engage with the person.
If the person is trolling, report them. But even if they’re trolling, the above statement still stands. Respect their pronouns or don’t engage with them as you report them.
How can one accept or reject a thing without understanding what it is they are accepting? Is not immediately changing the way one speaks without a reason or even an explicit request equivalent to denying someone’s identity? I don’t think my discomfort with neopronouns is because I reject anyone’s identity. I don’t even understand what such a person’s identity is. Unlike established pronouns, neopronouns do not have any meaning at all to me because I’ve never heard them before and no one has defined them. What do they signify? I assume something different for each one, so what is it? I’ve always been careful with my language, so using words without a clear understanding of their meaning makes me uncomfortable.
Language is a very meaningful topic for people. Both for the speaker and the spoken to. We have all been acculturated to speak in a certain way, and to understand the meanings of such speech in a certain way. I don’t think asking people to change the way they speak is as trivial as you seem to imply. Nor is declining to change the way one speaks the same as saying “I reject your identity”, unless such a meaning is intended.
And of course I understand that someone may not want to have this (or any) conversation. But I also feel that you can’t expect people to change without them understanding why they need to change. Most people hate change, it’s just human nature. So if you choose not to educate people, you’ll have to accept that they remain ignorant until such time as someone takes on that burden.
I’m trans. Cis people literally can never truly understand my experience or why the things that are important to me are important. Acceptance can’t be contingent on understanding they can never have.
Neopronouns are the same. You can work on your own understanding to reduce your discomfort but your discomfort should be your problem, not something you get to force on to others
And yet you’re fine when transphobes are harassing trans people and telling them to kill themselves, not to mention using right-wing memes made to attack trans people.
I think the broader issue is, you say you’re uncomfortable saying something. And at the same time other people say the want to be addressed like that. And, now what? I mean those might all be valid concerns/feelings/whatever. But we can’t have it both ways. So what do we do to solve this? You need to find some agreement on how to address someone, or silence is the other option.
I actually think silence might be the worst option since that’s a very exclusionary solution that isn’t helping build bridges between people. So it may be someone is going to have to just get over it. Maybe that should be me, I don’t know. But I think it would help me to do that to hear from somehow how it makes them feel and why it’s important to them.
Let’s be real—the vast majority of us were raised in a very cisnormative culture. And there was a lot of conscious and unconscious bigotry that most of us absorbed from that. So for me it has been a bit of a process over the years to peel back the layers and try to get it all out of me. I think I still have to do more work at this. While it doesn’t seem to me today that my discomfort is coming from a place of prejudice, I’m also not sure my own perspective on that is always correct.
I kind of went through a similar thing with trans folks back in the day. I struggled to understand the concept of gender dysphoria and hearing the emotional experiences of trans people was very helpful in understanding why inclusive language matters. While I can’t really wrap my head around why it matters so much, it is a raw and emotional issue that I can help with, so it’s just kind of an issue of basic politeness at that point.
If neopronouns are the same then I guess I will try to go along with them even though they seem like a quite confusing and difficult way for people to communicate. But again, it would be nice to hear from someone that yes, this really matters to them. I know that may be asking a lot but it would help me.
Let’s be real—the vast majority of us were raised in a very cisnormative culture. And there was a lot of conscious and unconscious bigotry that most of us absorbed from that
Hi, another trans person here.
I was also one of those vast majority of people raised in cisnormative culture. Just like you. After a lot of thought and introspection I realized the person I am in my mind, did not match the corporeal form I was given. So I am taking steps to make that vision of my self a reality. That often means using language that is not used in “cisnormative culture”. As with any language you don’t speak, you have two options. Learn to speak it yourself and come back to converse with those people OR choose not to learn it and move on with your life, leaving them be. Some people think there is this funny little third option called “colonization”, but it’s generally frowned upon.
/lh
Since the mod took issue with my comment, let me rephrase it so that it doesn’t break any rules, because I think it’s important for everyone to understand the abusive and transphobic behavior you willfully enable.
You may have fallen for the right-wing attack helicopter meme bullshit that person was shoveling out, but I’m not interested in pandering to transphobes, and I’m not playing that person’s games. Which is exactly why I blocked the entirety of your instance, because I want nothing to do with people who cater to shit like that. You should be ashamed of the harm you’ve caused the trans community with your behavior.
Absolute bullshit. I called drag out and ONLY drag. I made no mention of neopronouns or even said anything remotely dismissive of pronouns as I am a huge supporter of all of it.
Yet I was banned because I called drag a shit tier troll that was making a mockery of the trans community.
Community banned as I recall. And even removing the comments because I called them a troll and accused them of mocking the trans community was bullshit in light of the recent acknowledgment that they are- in fact, a troll.
They went to where they knew they could take advantage of the rules that protect the trans community- and then weaponized it to create drama and get shit removed.
I can’t check because blahaj modlogs won’t even load for me without timing out, but my point remains. I was banned/had comments removed for calling out a troll. Who did it is irrelevant.
You guys circled the wagons around a known troll and went scorched-earth on anyone that so much as said they weren’t being genuine.
The policy came from me. It’s an instance level policy that you were never banned for.
I did remove some of your comments, and I will do that again if I become aware of misgendering, even if it’s accidental. But it didn’t get you banned then, and unless you start deliberately misgendering folk, it won’t get you banned now either.
That last part is transphobic. No trans person represents the trans community and setting higher standards for trans people than cis people is transphobic. You can call them out for being a troll, but using someone’s gender identity in an insult is always transphobic.
DragonRider’s pronouns are “Drag” not “they”, just because someone is a dick doesn’t mean you don’t respect pronouns. Gender isn’t a reward for good behavior.
Drag is just someone with an unusual gender, bot has no qualms with that. Perhaps you should use Tumblr if you wanna see more people with out-there gender identities, the trans Tumblr community is part of the reason bot still uses that site
I think Blåhaj handled this person well over all. Even if Drag wad just 100% troll, drag wasn’t being fed in Blåhaj and had to go elsewhere. But also there was always the chance that drag is just someone on a journey or with things to sort out. Some people have completely given up on being any gender and treat it like a joke in an almost nihilistic way. But clearly there’s a line between that and an actual troll.
Either way, I wouldn’t say that it’s standard heterosexual cisgender behaviour to go as far as Drag did just for the lulz. So maybe one of these days, Drag will have an awakening and remember how no one in the community either fed drag or shunned drag when drag was confused and behaving badly.
If Drag was trolling, the troll was exposing how shallow non-binary acceptance is for your average “progressive.”
“Not feeding the troll” in that case is treating their request with a minimal level of respect, and that was simply too much inconvenience for 90% of Lemmy.world and a very potent reminder of why trans and enby folks need their own spaces.
Including some people in this thread with an axe to grind and no self awareness to stop it.
I personally don’t think they were a troll but I am also not sure I agree with banning people for not remembering or wanting to use their unusual pronouns.
But I am not well-educated on the topic of neopronouns so if someone feels like educating me or suggesting some readings I am open to it.
No one was banned for not rembering drags pronouns or for accidentally getting them wrong.
People were banned for dismissing the validity of neopronouns or for deliberately and repeatedly getting pronouns wrong.
Was it dismissing or just not understanding? To be honest my recollection is a bit fuzzy.
I’m a little afraid to be having this conversation lest I be accused of prejudice against trans or nonbinary folks, a prejudice I try my best to fight against. But I don’t even understand the connection there since we already have well-established systems of pronouns for such people.
Personally, I truly can’t fathom why neopronouns are necessary and while I don’t want to disrespect anyone, they are so uncomfortable to use that it just makes me not want to address someone who uses them… especially when they are implicitly linked to having sex with non-human mythological creatures.
But maybe I am just ignorant. Drag was my first introduction to this concept. I’d like to learn more about this.
Some folk require understanding before they offer acceptance. Those folk will frame it as “just not understanding”. I frame that as lack of acceptance. Acceptance isn’t contingent on understanding. You or I not understanding an aspect of someone elses identity has nothing to do with the validity of their identity.
If you wish to ask someone questions about their pronouns and identity, you’re welcome to do so, but remember they don’t owe you an answer, and whether they offer you an answer or not, and whether you understand their perspective or not, either way, gatekeeping and invalidating their identity is not on.
That was the other option I offered folk. If someone has stated their pronouns, either use them, or if you can’t bring yourself to use them, don’t engage with the person.
If the person is trolling, report them. But even if they’re trolling, the above statement still stands. Respect their pronouns or don’t engage with them as you report them.
How can one accept or reject a thing without understanding what it is they are accepting? Is not immediately changing the way one speaks without a reason or even an explicit request equivalent to denying someone’s identity? I don’t think my discomfort with neopronouns is because I reject anyone’s identity. I don’t even understand what such a person’s identity is. Unlike established pronouns, neopronouns do not have any meaning at all to me because I’ve never heard them before and no one has defined them. What do they signify? I assume something different for each one, so what is it? I’ve always been careful with my language, so using words without a clear understanding of their meaning makes me uncomfortable.
Language is a very meaningful topic for people. Both for the speaker and the spoken to. We have all been acculturated to speak in a certain way, and to understand the meanings of such speech in a certain way. I don’t think asking people to change the way they speak is as trivial as you seem to imply. Nor is declining to change the way one speaks the same as saying “I reject your identity”, unless such a meaning is intended.
And of course I understand that someone may not want to have this (or any) conversation. But I also feel that you can’t expect people to change without them understanding why they need to change. Most people hate change, it’s just human nature. So if you choose not to educate people, you’ll have to accept that they remain ignorant until such time as someone takes on that burden.
I’m trans. Cis people literally can never truly understand my experience or why the things that are important to me are important. Acceptance can’t be contingent on understanding they can never have.
Neopronouns are the same. You can work on your own understanding to reduce your discomfort but your discomfort should be your problem, not something you get to force on to others
And yet you’re fine when transphobes are harassing trans people and telling them to kill themselves, not to mention using right-wing memes made to attack trans people.
I think the broader issue is, you say you’re uncomfortable saying something. And at the same time other people say the want to be addressed like that. And, now what? I mean those might all be valid concerns/feelings/whatever. But we can’t have it both ways. So what do we do to solve this? You need to find some agreement on how to address someone, or silence is the other option.
I actually think silence might be the worst option since that’s a very exclusionary solution that isn’t helping build bridges between people. So it may be someone is going to have to just get over it. Maybe that should be me, I don’t know. But I think it would help me to do that to hear from somehow how it makes them feel and why it’s important to them.
Let’s be real—the vast majority of us were raised in a very cisnormative culture. And there was a lot of conscious and unconscious bigotry that most of us absorbed from that. So for me it has been a bit of a process over the years to peel back the layers and try to get it all out of me. I think I still have to do more work at this. While it doesn’t seem to me today that my discomfort is coming from a place of prejudice, I’m also not sure my own perspective on that is always correct.
I kind of went through a similar thing with trans folks back in the day. I struggled to understand the concept of gender dysphoria and hearing the emotional experiences of trans people was very helpful in understanding why inclusive language matters. While I can’t really wrap my head around why it matters so much, it is a raw and emotional issue that I can help with, so it’s just kind of an issue of basic politeness at that point.
If neopronouns are the same then I guess I will try to go along with them even though they seem like a quite confusing and difficult way for people to communicate. But again, it would be nice to hear from someone that yes, this really matters to them. I know that may be asking a lot but it would help me.
Hi, another trans person here.
I was also one of those vast majority of people raised in cisnormative culture. Just like you. After a lot of thought and introspection I realized the person I am in my mind, did not match the corporeal form I was given. So I am taking steps to make that vision of my self a reality. That often means using language that is not used in “cisnormative culture”. As with any language you don’t speak, you have two options. Learn to speak it yourself and come back to converse with those people OR choose not to learn it and move on with your life, leaving them be. Some people think there is this funny little third option called “colonization”, but it’s generally frowned upon. /lh
Or, do what my instance did, and ban him for being a transphobic troll that harasses people, which is the only sensible action.
Drag does not use he/him.
Since the mod took issue with my comment, let me rephrase it so that it doesn’t break any rules, because I think it’s important for everyone to understand the abusive and transphobic behavior you willfully enable.
Are you trans?
removed by mod
Absolute bullshit. I called drag out and ONLY drag. I made no mention of neopronouns or even said anything remotely dismissive of pronouns as I am a huge supporter of all of it.
Yet I was banned because I called drag a shit tier troll that was making a mockery of the trans community.
Your comments were removed. You aren’t instance banned
Community banned as I recall. And even removing the comments because I called them a troll and accused them of mocking the trans community was bullshit in light of the recent acknowledgment that they are- in fact, a troll.
They went to where they knew they could take advantage of the rules that protect the trans community- and then weaponized it to create drama and get shit removed.
I’m an instance admin. I don’t issue community bans. I issue instance bans. If someone community banned you, it wasn’t me.
I can’t check because blahaj modlogs won’t even load for me without timing out, but my point remains. I was banned/had comments removed for calling out a troll. Who did it is irrelevant.
You guys circled the wagons around a known troll and went scorched-earth on anyone that so much as said they weren’t being genuine.
The policy came from me. It’s an instance level policy that you were never banned for.
I did remove some of your comments, and I will do that again if I become aware of misgendering, even if it’s accidental. But it didn’t get you banned then, and unless you start deliberately misgendering folk, it won’t get you banned now either.
That last part is transphobic. No trans person represents the trans community and setting higher standards for trans people than cis people is transphobic. You can call them out for being a troll, but using someone’s gender identity in an insult is always transphobic.
DragonRider’s pronouns are “Drag” not “they”, just because someone is a dick doesn’t mean you don’t respect pronouns. Gender isn’t a reward for good behavior.
You’re right. I honestly wasn’t even thinking. Going to edit my comment now.
drag has stated that drag accepts they/them as well.
Dragonfucker isn’t a gender
Drag is just someone with an unusual gender, bot has no qualms with that. Perhaps you should use Tumblr if you wanna see more people with out-there gender identities, the trans Tumblr community is part of the reason bot still uses that site
yay drone rights and such, am i rite?