Neither party campaign’s on climate policy so the problem is the party, not the voter.
Yeah but it’s peak lib to blame voters for not voting hard enough, instead of demanding the bare minimum from those in power.
SMH
Uno reverse card
If so many people who care about the climate don’t vote, then why don’t politicians take a stronger line on the issue to appeal to them?
Exactly.
The United States has a problem with voter suppression, and a history of blaming societal problems on individuals to make it look like individual people are responsible instead of the people in charge.
Solid point. Part of it is a blame game as well. I try to stress how local policies are important. Yet you will still have politicians that will state they will do whatever to overturn popular vote. I mean take pot for example, 41/50 states and it’s only getting a reclassification.
No one is going to open a restaurant where the target market is “people who don’t go to restaurants”. If you don’t vote you don’t matter to politicians and that’s all there is to it.
Yeah, that’s not true at all. The hundreds of millions spent on voter mobilization, get out the vote, rock the vote, voter education, voter registration, and all attendant campaigns is such an obvious massive counter to your inispid narrative.
The purpose of those programs is to increase turnout, not cater to the political leanings of likely non-voters. Dems don’t give a shit what those people want they just want them to vote because statistically they would vote for Dems. The issues important to those voters rarely come up which is exactly my point.
I don’t really expect a well reasoned response from someone going around saying things like “Europe can save Ukraine by disbanding NATO” though. Pull your head out of Putin’s ass and have your own thoughts.
LOL. You’re fucking amazing. You came to the conclusion that voter turnout programs only exist because they want voters to vote for them but literally won’t do anything that those voters want? That’s your conclusion? You couldn’t reason your way out of a paper bag. Which makes sense because you think an American who has been raised by Americans in America and consumed all the same anti-Russian propaganda you have consumed our whole lives is somehow having someone else’s thoughts when they have thoughts that disagree with the propaganda you and I have both been raised on. You are doing the meme.
If Dems primary concern is the will of their voters then why are they constantly doing things the majority of their voting base disagrees with? You’re acting like Dems know exactly what the people want when the central political problem in America for the last 15 years is that they either don’t know or don’t care.
Also, if your own thoughts are not Russian propaganda then why is what you’re saying matching Russian propaganda word-for-word? Disbanding NATO doesn’t help anyone but Russia and somewhere in that brain of yours you know that. You’re twisting words to make unreasonable things sound reasonable on both of these issues
Oh, sorry, so you’re saying Dems are constantly doing things their voting base disagrees with? So then why should people vote for them? You’re not making a strong argument for your position there.
You think Russian propaganda is the only source of anti-NATO sentiment in the entire world? Have you heard of Heusinger? Are you aware of the controversial decisions to staff NATO with Nazi officers? Heusinger was never even tried at Nuremberg.
Disbanding NATO doesn’t help anyone but Russia and somewhere in that brain of yours you know that.
Pretty sure it would’ve helped the Libyans if the “defensive” alliance that waged an offensive war on them didn’t exist.
NATO is a tool of neocolonialism and there are countless neocolonies around the world that it harms. Even if it were “defensive” (which it absolutely isn’t) it maintains an oppressive status quo over the global majority and gives member states the ability to attack wantonly, without fear of retaliation.
You’ll never get good faith engagement with ml so all you can do is try to piss em off and waste their time.
Ad hominem
Well yeah, obviously bullies only bully the nerds because the Anti-Bully Club is so anti-bully. If the Anti-Bully Club just disbands instead of defending nerds, then the bullies will have no reason to keep bullying the nerds! Duhhh! (/s)
And yet voter turnout is consistently low.
Because voters have figured out that voting doesn’t fucking matter. Once you realize that a) the country has always been run by a single fascist bloc b) with multiple fascist factions fighting for control and c) fronted by two PR firms with subsidiary PR firms that drive psychological manipulation of voters into believing that d) this time it really is the most important election in history and e) voting will fix it and f) if you vote correctly then the fascists you put in power will stop being fascist and g) actually make structural change - once that becomes obvious, voting is just not something people are motivated to do. And to be clear even people like me who believe all those things vote in vast numbers because it is a ritualized symbol and it has implications in social situations and dynamics. And even still huge numbers of people just don’t vote, which means massive numbers of people understand that the system is fully irredeemable.
Oh fuck you’re an ml bot. Not worth engaging with. Buhbye MAGAtankie shitbird.
LOL
Ad hominem
You’re right Zohran Mamdani didn’t win NYC mayor. Fuck off bad faith troll. Who you working for?
Sewer socialists have a long history of winning in the USA, and also of being outmaneuvered entirely by the fascists in both parties, purged, and having nearly all of their progress completely undone.
No one is going to open a restaurant where the target market is “people who don’t go to restaurants”.
???
When you open a restaurant, the only target market is people who don’t go to your restaurant. Looking into how to expand your business to people who don’t already go to restaurants is absolutely a valid line of inquiry that companies persue all the time. Maybe the reason they don’t eat out because it’s too expensive, and you can appeal to them with lower prices. Maybe the reason they don’t eat out is because they don’t know how good your food is, and you can address that with free samples. Maybe they have dietary restrictions and you can appeal to them by adding vegan or gluten free options. Restaurants, like any business, are constantly looking for ways to break into new sections of the market. So your analogy falls completely flat.
Look at, for example, Little Caesars which at least back when I was in school had cheap ass $5 pizzas, they tasted like shit but they were $5 so being a broke ass college student I ate there all the time when I might otherwise have not eaten out at all. And that’s why they focused on keeping the price low instead of making it actually good. Because at $5, even groceries wouldn’t be much cheaper.
Likewise, if a political party is uninterested in appealing to people who don’t already vote for them, it must mean that they’re satisfied with their current level of support. Which, considering the Dems lost the last election, doesn’t exactly seem to be working. And what, do you think you’ll have better luck trying, again, to appeal to “moderate” Republicans? Let me know how that goes, lol.
People who don’t eat at restaurants at all are obviously not the same as people who don’t eat at a restaurant that doesn’t exist. You said you understood that concept but then spent the rest of your comment describing people who want to eat at restaurants.
This is what your commitment to your narrative has done to you. It has made you believe that there is a category of people who don’t vote because that is what they prefer, and you’re so committed that you are willing to make nonsense arguments that posit the existence of people who eat food but specifically will not and never will eat food if it’s in a restaurant.
Nothing about your narrative is reasonable. Give people something they want and they will pursue it
People who don’t eat at restaurants at all are obviously not the same as people who don’t eat at a restaurant that doesn’t exist.
Legitimately don’t understand this word salad.
You said you understood that concept but then spent the rest of your comment describing people who want to eat at restaurants.
Someone who doesn’t currently eat at restaurants might start eating at them if the restaurants find a way to appeal to them. That’s not a complicated concept.
If I’m vegan, and no restaurants in my area offer vegan options, then I am someone who doesn’t eat at restaurants at all. If a restaurant opens up that does offer vegan options, or if an existing restaurant adds a vegan option, then I might start eating at restaurants. Do you not understand this concept?
Likewise, someone who doesn’t vote might start voting if they’re appealed to. This is equally uncomplicated.
No one is going to open a restaurant where the target market is “people who don’t go to restaurants”
There’s plenty of people opening restaurants on the basis of “this kind of cuisine is not available in this neighborhood. I think people would like it.”
Your analogy is incredibly flawed. People are able to go to more than one restaurant.
Oh so we’re supposed to pretend that climate voters are so stupid they don’t understand that Republicans are bad for the environment?
No, you’re supposed to understand that people will be more motivated to vote if you appeal to them based on the policies they care about and follow through, instead of offering nothing beyond, “not the other guy.”
Why do you need to be “more motivated” if you care about climate change so much, when the options couldn’t be more clear? You are just making excuses for apathy.
Why do you need to be “more motivated” if you care about climate change so much, when the options couldn’t be more clear?
I don’t know how I can possibly make this more simple. These people haven’t been motivated enough to vote for your party before. You want them to be motivated to vote for your party in the future. Therefore, you need to find a way to make them more motivated to vote for you. That’s why. This is not complicated.
You are just making excuses for apathy.
No, I’m simply shifting the focus to where it belongs.
There’s a mismatch between what the party does and what the people want, and your solution involves trying to change what the millions of people want instead of changing the handful of people who determine party policy. Not only is that completely undemocratic, it’s also completely impractical. Unless you have a magic wand you can wave that will turn millions of people into Lesser Evilists before you’ll need their votes, you’re gonna have to meet them where they’re at and give them things they want. Which is exactly how any democratic system is supposed to work.
It’s kind of amazing how entitled y’all are with your party. They’re supposed to be “public servants.” If a servant’s employer tells them to clean something, does the servant say, “It’s already clean enough, you need to learn to live with a little dust,” or do they do the thing they’re being fucking paid to do and clean it again, even if they think the request is stupid? The level of backtalk y’all give to the public is frankly unbelievable. You don’t act like public servants, you act like public masters, like you’re feudal lords who get to tell us what’s going to happen and we’re uppity rabble who needs to fall in line. You’ve got things completely upside down.
Why would you try to appeal to non-voters? They don’t vote. The right messaging won’t suddenly make non-voters voters.
Me when I reduce infinitely complex beings in static categories to fit my worldview.
Really? Metaphysical arguments? “X people are inherently this type of person and never won’t be” is such a lazy and uninspired argument.
Liberalism cannot question the status quo, as that status quo gets actively worse and worse from capitalism and imperialism. But hey… Those guys are actively making it worse, we just watch from the sides and maybe put some duct tape on it once in a while.
Ok so you lose then.
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Lmao have fun losing forever
I did vote so this isn’t my personal opinion. I’ve been told many times it’s “voting for the lesser of two evils, they’re both evil and I don’t agree with either.” There’s no real sense of choice. I can see it. It very much feels like that South Park episode where they have to vote for the school mascot. Do you want it to be a Giant Douche or, a Turd Sandwich? And then at the end it was all for nothing because they don’t change their mascot so it was all pointless.
Edit: you guys can call me stupid all you want. It doesn’t change the fact that I’ve heard this from coworkers and family repeatedly. I did vote. In fact, I’ve already voted in my primaries. The question was “why don’t people vote?” I gave the answer of why I personally have been told by people they don’t vote. Not liking my answer doesn’t change the reality of it. I work in blue collar work. It’s a very common view in my area. Or, they are pro Trump.
My personal opinion on why they don’t vote or, don’t vote in favor of things they support, they generally don’t want to take the time to educate themselves. And for others, they don’t want to feel responsible for voting when their candidate turns out to be nothing like they promised.
There’s a very good reason for the sentiment and why people feel such a sense of dejection and apathy. Then it gets met with smug ripostes like the “bOtH sIdEs” spongetext shit or plain mockery as if it’s something that just appeared out of nowhere.
It’s just typical Democrat arrogance assuming that they are entitled to peoples votes without having to offer any material change, it also ties into why progressive and leftist candidates have to struggle to break through because they’re fighting their own party first and foremost before they even get to fighting Republicans.
Yeah, I can honestly empathize with the people who believe this. Everything feels exhausting, overwhelming, and like nothing will ever change. Unfortunately for the people of that opinion though, NOT voting will ensure nothing changes. Or rather, that you had no hand in changing anything. Because everything will change eventually for good or bad.
Not even that is true. Women fought for the right to vote without voting and they won. Black people fought for the right to vote without voting and they won. Voting doesn’t change anything, it turns out. What changes things is when politicians writ large stand to lose something bigger than their seat, like control over society.
Voting matters. So does fighting for rights. It’s not one or the other.
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Hello three day old account trying to dissuade voter turnout! If progressives and leftists voted in primaries we’d have a progressive leftist Democratic party, but progressives and leftists don’t vote for the most part. But you know that since you’re not here in good faith anyway. The phrase “typical democrat arrogance” gives you away, gotta stop using your fox news terms MAGAt.
Hello three day old account
I’ve been on Lemmy for longer than your account has existed, account age doesn’t mean anything.
trying to dissuade voter turnout
No I’m not. You’re just reading what you want to read.
If progressives and leftists voted in primaries we’d have a progressive leftist Democratic party, but progressives and leftists don’t vote for the most part.
Complete nonsense.
But you know that since you’re not here in good faith anyway.
That’s rich coming from you with this complete stinker of a comment.
The phrase “typical democrat arrogance” gives you away, gotta stop using your fox news terms MAGAt.
lol pure desperation.
That’s so defeatist. It makes you feel like you’re smart by saying that and thinking you’re privy to something but it’s just totally passive and does nothing. If all the people who said that actually organized and made a plan, there would be a sizable number of people who could actually make a difference.
Did you even read what I wrote? This is not my opinion, this is what I have been told. I don’t think this is correct and that these people are honestly just being lazy and don’t want to take responsibility for their vote.
No shit, my response was in reference to the people you were referring to. Did you take the “you” part as literal? I was agreeing with you. Take it down a notch with the defensiveness.
Voting for ‘the lesser evil’ is what continues the status quo, it keeps duopolies in power around the world, it definitely isn’t just a usa issue.
If people are willing and capable of seeing the duopoly as one entity, they realise that the duopoly never loses… that doesn’t sound very democratic, because it isn’t, duopolies are a right wing con.
Democracies have better choices, but so many countries just keep voting ‘the lesser evil’, and ‘evil’ in continuously.
Hello brand new account trying to discourage voting!
Why didn’t you just copy/paste your other comment about the age of my account?
I’m clearly not discouraging voting… well at least not for people who can think.
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The history of the usa points out the problems with both parties. The usa is war on earth.
I too have heard that argument but unfortunately those are usually the people who won’t see reason. I rarely try to argue with them unless they express some type of will to learn or seem like they’re questioning their beliefs. Some people just like to complain and refuse to help themselves, sad but true.
The real solution would be having more than 2 parties. I mean, TECHNICALLY we do but not really.
The real solution would be having more than 2 parties. I mean, TECHNICALLY we do but not really.
You are going to have to fundamentally change the way we vote and how we count them. In a single-choice-vote, plurality system it will mathematically trend toward having exactly two viable choices, no matter how many are allowed on the ballot.
Mixed-member proportional would probably work well for the House and Senate, and some judicial/executive positions. Where that’s not tenable (President, Governor, etc.) a Condorcet Method should be employed.
Plenty of Dems run on election reform to enable third party viability. Gotta vote in the primaries.
I believe the system is fundamentally broken but I still participate because you can’t fix it by doing nothing. But yes, my coworkers are not people who’s opinions will be changed by fact and reason. They’re also the same people who say, “facts don’t care about your feelings.” Imagine that. But then they get all bent out of shape about how “no one is doing anything about this!” but then refuse to vote. My guy, you’re not doing anything either!
Both candidates were pro war. War is the top polluting activity humans do. People chose not to vote last time because we had absolutely miserable candidate choices, an undemocratic primary, and formal war crimes support from our own party. Anyone who wags a finger after that shenanigans and talks about climate in isolation from the rest of it is missing the forest through the trees.
Both parties are also pro record fossil fuel extraction.
How big of a record is each trying to break? Just by a hair? Or trying to break the record for years?
Why do you people always make it out like the democrats are just barely beyond perfect? The reality is they’re abhorrent monsters. Biden didn’t just make it worse by a hair, He made it fucking terrible
Yeah, it’s a good thing both candidates were the same on every single issue, too, so there was literally no difference in picking between the fascist and the non-fascist. Fantastic job recognizing your duty to stick to one single issue where you feel they were the same!
One thing you’ll eventually have to come to terms with is that it’s the government of the USA that is and has always been fascist and that the two parties aren’t going to stop the fascism that they both manage and benefit from. Biden had the Epstein files and did nothing. You think the voters are gonna stop fascism when the candidates are all fascists and fascist defenders?
Well one party didn’t try to overthrow the election, stop our votes from being counted, call for violence against their dissenters, pardon the people who tried to take control of the government by force, remove anyone who tried to prosecute them, remove anyone who didn’t fall behind them. But I mean the dems didn’t make life changing bills, only generally positive ones while having a majority of checks notes 1 seat. Republicans are an ocean of fascism and dems are a bucket, but I guess it’s better to lose all our rights, help Russia invade Ukraine, and destroy the planet instead of voting for those fascist dems :3
And then Biden took office and he and his DOJ had the full Epstein files AND Project 2025 was openly published and explained and promoted AND Biden said “we have to stop these people” and then did what? That’s correct. He did nothing. He had literal documentation that DJT committed wanton infanticide and rape and human trafficking but did nothing. Nothing. Biden did nothing with the Epstein files while Harris told immigrants not to come to the US because we were absolutely going to continue torturing them at the border and nothing was gonna stop them, just like nothing was going to stop the Israeli genocide and the American participation in it.
No, sorry. The Democrats are not “less fascist” just like the Good Cop is still a cop.
The Ds aren’t going to save Ukraine either. The parties don’t make military decisions, the military does and the parties ratify it. That’s why Obama continued Bush 2’s projects, including invading Libya, which was on Bush’s list but he never got to it. Don’t forget Obama refused to give Ukraine any weapons and declared Venezuela a national security threat after Bush 2 tried to coup Chavez. Trump was the first president to approve arms transfers to Ukraine. I know it’s confusing because you think the parties are “evil” and “almost good” but they aren’t, they are both fascist imperialists and it’s why this all happens this way.
It’s also why the Obama administration expanded ICE and DHS and then deported 3M people with Tom Homan at the helm, just like Trump used all the Obama-era policies and even appointed Tom Homan himself to run deportations (though Trump hasn’t yet caught up to Obama’s numbers).
You’re falling for the manipulation. You somehow believe that the con artist saying “that guy has a knife, I’ll protect you, just give me your wallet” even after that con artist walked away and did NOTHING about the guy with the knife.
The evidence is clear. Both parties are maintainers of the world fascist empire, and one party appeals to the voters with fear of “the other” and the other party appears to the voters with the fear of “being bad people”.
The way I see it, it’s more like they’re ok with it as long as the knife is pointed at someone else. Fascism is imperialism brought home. All that imperialism has been happening non-stop and even at home, marginalized groups have been subject to all sorts of terrible things.
They’ll call that less bad because it doesn’t affect them yet. And in the narrowest sense I guess they are technically correct exactly in the short term. But 1) It’s not better for those other people. 2) They don’t see how one inevitably leads to the other. The same tools they built to stop “our enemies abroad” can and are used to suppress dissent at home.
If a Dem ran that as a fucking bare minimum promised to reign in the military, police, and surveillance states and curb executive power, I’d be more sympathetic to the argument for harm reduction even if they didn’t agree with me on other things. But if they’re just going to keep enabling all of this, at best the only “harm reduction” happening is some people getting to ignore the suffering until next election.
at best the only “harm reduction” happening is some people getting to ignore the suffering until next election
This exactly.
if they’re just going to keep enabling all of this
It’s beyond enabling. They are architecting it, expanding it, normalizing it, and selling it.
Well if you’re not one of the people dead from ice, healthcare cuts, environmental impacts from all the solar/wind cuts, dead from cancer from the research we stopped, dead from food illness, dead in the war in Iran, dead in the invasion of ukraine, dead from measles, dead from USAID being gutted, or completely destitute from the cost of living, then yeah here’s not much “harm reduction” to be had really.
Maybe this argument works if Trump hadn’t completely ruined the world and directly caused hundreds of thousands of deaths, and probably much more when diseases start spreading because of government sponsored vaccine denial and USAID cuts.
I’d ask you to consider how we got here. Trump didn’t just fall from the sky and started wrecking things on his own.
I could go into the whole history of the last quarter century and beyond, but to keep things simple, let’s go with a personal example:
I live in an area I would describe as blue MAGA. They regularly vote (corporate) Dem at the federal level, although local politics is very Rep dominated. My rep is a multiple term incumbent Democrat who we have tried and failed to primary multiple times, including one election where I was directly involved in the progressive opposition campaign.
As far as issues that enable fascism goes, they:
-
Voted for more ICE funding and increased border security.
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Voted for increases to military spending.
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Voted to support Israel’s genocide.
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Participates in the war mongering around countries like Iran. To the extent that they had any issue with Trump’s recent war, it was a matter of poor execution rather than any principled stance against US imperialism. This matters beyond some lefty purity test. Stances like these and the policies they lead to help manufacture consent for these wars.
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Failed to press for congress to act on it’s constitutional responsibility to stop presidents from illegally starting wars.
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Voted on a Republican resolution to condemn the horrors of socialism at a time when right wing fascism is the dominant, pressing crisis in our country.
I could go on, but you get the gist. They’re exactly the kind of Democrat we’re talking about who enables the fascists to do what they do.
So… setting aside the fact that he’s probably in a safe seat anyway, what should I do come election day? Is voting for this person a vote against Trump and fascism? Is this harm reduction? Can I expect them to do ANYTHING to reign in this administration when they have not even tried to do so before? IF they’re not going to, what exactly is the benefit? And there are costs beyond what they will do in office. Incumbency comes with a pretty big electoral advantage. Continuing to support them makes it harder to unseat them later.
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Yeah, I mean, you basically get it, you just think Trump is somehow special. Biden authored the Crime Bill, Clinton put it into law, they ruined millions of lives, mostly of black Americans. Obama/Biden and HRC created an absolutely massive crisis in Libya by funding, arming, training, and coordinating a terroristic “resistance” and then used NATO to bomb the most prosperous country in Africa into devastation where they now openly sell human slaves. The Ukraine situation requires you to imagine history started a few years ago - Bill Clinton openly and public wanted to include Russia in NATO, even after Putin took office. Hell, Clinton was instrumental in legitimizing Putin. The invasion of Ukraine is not something Trump caused and it’s not something he can end. If you have ever studied proxy conflicts like this one, the way you end the bloodshed is by surrendering and signing a treaty. The way you kill more people is by funneling more guns and mercenaries into the proxy. We’ve known this for decades. The US military literally justified some of its proxy wars with Youth Bulge Theory, stating that when there’s too many MAMs (military-aged males) that they could pose a threat to stability so it’s important to get ahead of youth bulges, create the conflicts before they become something we can’t control, and let the conflict kill off the youth bulge. The US is fucking sick.
As for everything else you listed, there’s an equally deadly Democrat equivalent. The embargo on Cuba means that the Cuban vaccine that prevents lung cancer is completely unavailable in the US. Democrats have deported/repatriated more people than Republicans have over the last 25 years. And the reason those immigrants are coming to us in the first place is because of bi-partisan destruction of South American and African countries.
Biden expanded the ICE concentration camps Trump took over from Obama, what an odd thing to mention.
USAID was used as a front for the CIA and various regime change operations.
They both massively hurt the environment, so I dont really care that one of them does not deign to do token gestures of goodwill.
The war in Ukraine started under Biden.
The war in Iran is bipartisan.
The cost of living was already making people destitue and all Democrats had to say about it was that the economy was doing great.
Healthcare cuts? The healthcare system has been abysmal forever and all dems did was pass a subsidy for insurance companies.
Its not like the cancer research would save anyone but the wealthies in this nation.
Food illness spreads now, which is terrible. It is correct that the current regime is worse administrators of minutiae.
His prosecution was underway and he was about to be convicted and then sent to jail wtf are you talking about? And then the public elected him president, so the investigations stopped. Do you want Biden to just put him in prison with no trial? Just push the send him to jail button that even with trumps fascist army of yesmen he can’t do? Insane how these rewrites of history always come right before an election, I would’ve hoped the Ukraine strikes on the datacenters would’ve slowed it down.
Waiting for 1 dem president that murdered American citizens and sent 200b worth of armed thugs, and the national guard. I guess Obama mishandled the border, which is basically the same thing as telling people immigrants are rapists and murderers, removing as many protections for people of color, and being intentionally evil and murdering people with hired thugs.
It’s just rewriting history, Biden was unbelievably outspoken in his support for Ukraine, was sending them aid, had terrible views of Russia. With Republicans we get a war with Iran and we suck Russia off and tell Ukraine get bent. We can see what the two parties did during this war, we don’t have to guess. Democrats have been with Ukraine since day 1, Republicans against. Trump cut off all Ukraine aid as fast as he could, Biden sent it as fast as he could, there is no mystery there.
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Same on genocide too, don’t forget!
Oh and immigration!
Here’s the rub:
Most of these idiot kids are too young to vote anyway, and the rest are too stupid to recognize their own name on their mailer.
So, if anyone was wondering, this- is the bOtH siDEs psyop bullshit that you all hear about.
Pretty much, sadly it describes the majority of Lemmy as a whole given its foundation.
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is a Russian psyop
Your words, not his. Plenty of troll factories and gullible groups around the world, but the money pours down from where it pours down.
Both sides are not the same, one has been way worse for the environment than the other, the majority of this thread is rife with ignorance, plenty of it wilful. This thread might as well be called a theater.
- https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/climate/trump-environment-rollbacks-list.html
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_policy_of_the_first_Trump_administration
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_policy_of_the_second_Trump_administration
You are both-siding this and appealing to perfection as a solution, both common appeals used in manipulation, just like the majority of this theater is doing.
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What a garbage spew of accusations. This thread is about climate change, and it’s clearly you want to derail with a lot of baggage, which ironically enough, one side is still considerably worse than the other for each and every issue you try to shotgun with. I doubt you are American, and I doubt the why of each needs to be explained in anything other than an theathered echo-chamber.
You are both-siding this and appealing to perfection as a solution, both common appeals used in manipulation, just like the majority of this theater is doing.
Again, and again, and again, and again, and again …
This is exactly why I don’t argue with these kids. It’s a massive waste of time. you’ve far more patience than I have.
I think you’re mistaken in thinking they are a child. I suspect it’s more like 3-5 psychologist sitting in a room thinking up the “perfect” response to drive their narrative.
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The last rebuttal with hard facts and links just made you spew a word salad of gaslighting while ignoring anything you were offered. I don’t have any hope for you, I’m just annotating for other readers caught up in the theater.
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Nah, I don’t debate with dumbasses that say shit like “bLuEmAgA”. It’s beneath me.
War kills people and nobody pollutes less than a dead man 🤷
But do you actually have a source for that? Because agriculture is the largest driver of ecological collapse and I’d be shocked if a handful of aircraft carrier emissions outweighs tons and tons of foods and goods being shipped.
If anyone considers climate to be their highest priority, the choices weren’t even close to comparable. One was milquetoast green half measures that would kick the can a little further and one was nosedive everything off the cliff and irreversibly accelerate the climate catastrophe. If you stayed at home and were fine with the second choice you were flat out lying about your priorities.
The person you are responding to has a history of not knowing shit about what they take about.
Are they responding to you?
which oil executive should i vote for
Oil/lobbying industry spent decades demonizing and deflecting global activism, by portraying them as eco-extremist/ecoterrorist. the lesser known method is them funding campaigns or even companies to tell you to buy thier “low carbon emission footprint” products so they dont have to reduce thier own emissions. and also funding “protestors” to deface public property.
Preferably none.
But if you only have those options, you better voter for the better one of things will get even worse than they are now.
So please, go vote. Don’t pretend like it does nothing.
read W.E.B DuBois to understand why
- i do vote
- you telling me to does harm
he was even more important then MLK and was America’s best epistemologist. come back in a year
The one that doesn’t invade Venezuela to take their oil.
Is this some kind of trick question?
Check any political thread here or elsewhere and you will hear a regular refrain of “both parties are the same” and “voting doesn’t matter because it’s all rigged!” A huge percentage of Americans have fallen for that line of bullshit and now don’t bother to vote at all no matter what they think is important. It’s a sad fact that propaganda works.
The problem of low voter turnout precedes the Internet. Low voter turnout is a symptom of the problem, it is not the problem itself.
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That’s not Americans. There’s a fuck ton of psyop propaganda here.
if clearly motivated people don’t want to vote for you, it’s not an indication that they should lower their standards, it’s an indication that you should have standards to begin with
it’s cute how liberals here are so resilient to reality. people don’t care for slow, steady, painfully incremental progress (if even that) when every summer is so much hotter than the last one.
Incremental progress is better than actively working to make things worse, but y’know, stick to your guns and help make SURE things get worse. Good job!
i think you misunderstand
i’m not saying people shouldn’t vote (truthfully, i don’t care). i’m saying parties who want votes should have policies worth voting for.
y’all keep talking about how the “let’s not vote for the lesser evil because it’s still evil” voter strategy has lead to terrible results. why not talk about how the “let’s be the lesser evil instead of doing anything good that people would want to support” party strategy has lead to the same terrible results?
The time to make that change is before the general election.
Anytime you’re presented with two choices, take the less bad option. But if that’s the only time you bother to act, or even worse, if you don’t even act THEN to pick the lesser bad option, then you are one less vote against the worse, and therefore by your actions support it. But you already supported it if you weren’t fighting for better options.
“Well, I didn’t pick which restaurant to visit very well, and this restaurant only has moldy fruit or sandwiches made literally from shit. I don’t like either option, so I’m just gonna eat whatever they bring me”. Sure, it’s not a great analogy in the sense that picking a different restaurant is not so easy in the context of politics, but I think it makes the point - always choose the lesser bad option. I’d rather eat the moldy fruit (we’re assuming that we must eat something in this metaphor) than the literal shit. And then work harder to try and prevent us from going to this restaurant next time. But if you are presented with the two bad options and one is worse, not picking an option is fucking stupid.
It blows my mind that these people just won’t even try to understand such a simple concept. Their entitlement, alongside their little purity test cost us not only our democracy, but is RAPIDLY forwarding the environmental damage they pretend to stand against.
It’s mind-numbing dumbassery.
Your point was well said, but it will sadly fall on deaf ears. They don’t want to be told the right way to do things, they want to be told the conveinient way to do things. The way that makes them look good. The way that doesn’t require an effort-
….the way that doesn’t involve sacrifice.
Their entitlement, alongside their little purity test cost us not only our democracy
so, people who aren’t content with atrocious (when, don’t they know that it could be cataclysmic???) are a sizeable enough population that they can sway elections… yet, seemingly, it’s not worth it for democrats to cater to them by not being atrocious? which is it?
you talk of effort and sacrifice. for what? voting? calling people dumbasses on the internet because they checks notes express empathy for those who refuse to settle for eternal mediocrity?
“is it so hard to understand that trump is worse” is it so hard to understand that people who see other people being bombed, forests burning, rights taken away, and their lives getting steadily worse, under liberals and conservatives alike, are not gonna fucking bother at some point? people are not game theory machines, “your life gets worse” vs “your life gets worser”, despite having an obviously correct answer, is not a motivating choice, what a surprise
if you believe in saving democracy so much, demand more out of your elected officials instead of demanding less of people who are tired of suffocating under the boot. but, maybe that requires too much effort, and involves too much sacrifice, idk
You know how you demand more from your elected officials? BY FUCKING VOTING IN THE FUCKING PRIMARIES YOU FUCKING DONKEYS.
Yeah, as a rule, I don’t read the propaganda you people believe in. Your job is to spread your bullshit and move on, my job is to calm it out.
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It seems like you actually believe anyone who thought Harris was a bad candidate voted for Rump?
That’s so simpledeleted by creator
But what if they voted for Harris, while thinking she was a terrible candidate? Did that possibly not occur to you?
Millions didn’t. Did that occur to you?
Of course. That’s why I expected her to loose.
Typical MAGA.
Your inability to make the bare minimum effort necessary to stand in front of fascism seems to have also allowed you to not know or care what the outcome was-
Since you seem to like simplicity so much,…
How about you stop pretending any of this matters to you since you have proven via your conscience choice you made to not bother yourself with it.
Simple as……
What choice did I make?
What minimum effort did I not do?Voting for the candidate that does less harm to the environment.
Maybe not you, but plenty others did. And that is why we got trump.
I think you answered my second question? I’m going to assume you did.
Of course that’s why we got Rump. He got more votes. Harris ran against a convicted felon, fraudster, and rapist. It should have been a cake walk to beat him. It was the Dems campaign to loose. She lost anyway, because she was a bad cantate, and the Dems fucked up massively. You can’t blame the reff (the voters) when one team played so obviously badly.
It’s a two party system and you have three choices.
Vote A
Vote B
Don’t vote.
Not voting is still an action. It means either option is fine, otherwise you would have voted for a specific candidate
But what if they voted for Harris, while thinking she was a terrible candidate? Did that possibly not occur to you?
Then they liked her more than the other options.
I know we’re talking about Americans, but this is a simple enough concept. Even for them.
Yah I kind of thought that was simple enough that nobody would think it was what I was asking about.
The whole idea I apparently need to directly explain is, someone can believe that she was and is a bad candidate, while also voting for her. That we can call out her terrible campaign, and how bad the Democrats are at this game; Wanting and hoping for them to be better. You can support your team, while complaining about how much they suck. Too many here seem to think any criticism of any Democrat is support for Republicans. But that kind of simplistic black and white thinking is what Republicans do. I’d want more for us.
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What’s not cute, is how there are people fucking stupid enough to not understand the simple concept that when your opponent is a anti-environmental fascist-
YOU VOTE AGAINST THE ANTI-ENVIRONMENTAL FASCIST.
It can’t get any easier, yet you people STILL don’t seem to understand it. Let me put it another way:
When you have cancer- YOU TAKE THE CHEMO. You live to fight anther day. You don’t say,
“Yeah, no. Chemo sucks. I don’t want to get sick, so, let the cancer take me.” This is PURE ignorance.
Exactly. If they aren’t a Fetterman, then vote for them no matter what.
The only way voting will be ever be effective again is if we shift the Overton window back. The only way to do that (in regards to voting) is to vote for leftists at the local and state level. The ones that actually win are running under the Democrat banner.
That’s pretty much the only way we get out of this mess democratically speaking. That said, we do need to be doing more than just voting to have any actual chance.
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Non voters aren’t motivated to vote, they’re non voters, why would anyone cater to a group that intentionally throws away any influence they could have?
Thanks, I’ll go on and implement a policy to destroy the ability to vote for as many people as possible in as many ways as I can come up with, that way they become non-voters and I don’t have to listen to them. Oh wait, that policy is already what’s happening.
Because progressives don’t fucking vote and give power to Republicans by doing so. If you refuse to participate in the system then you don’t get to be upset when the system disregards you.
Over several decades, progressives are told to vote for the lesser evil, they do, and then the lesser evil helps the greater evil silence progressive voices, so that progressives eventually find out they can’t vote anymore.
You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Yeah, and not voting will make everything much worse a lot faster.
So please, throw away your vote. The republicans will thank you.
If progressives voted in every election over the last several decades we’d have a progressive democratic party, but progressives mostly don’t vote. You sound like a republican.
I sound like a Republican when saying that the Republican have destroyed voting rights? sure buddy.
You sound like a republican because you were spouting both sides bullshit.
As we all know, if you just keep telling people to vote, eventually they’ll just be like “Yeah! I’m gonna take off work from the job that doesn’t give me time off, go find a polling place, which isn’t close and crowded because the state doesn’t run enough polling places, then try to go there in a town without public transportation! Why didn’t I think of this sooner?” Then they get there and find out that most of the local elections are uncontested and the federal ones have only a choice between no climate policy and climate policy which is insufficient but delays the necessary work until it’s too late. Then after begrudgingly voting, they realize that their districts are so gerrymandered their vote basically didn’t count anyway.
Nope, no need to change anything, we just need to keep telling people to go vote. It hasn’t worked yet, but… uh…
To be clear, this isn’t telling you not to vote. It’s telling you to do more than vote.
Yes.
Voting is the baseline. The absolute minimum effort required. Its the least effective yet simplest thing to do to fix things.
Anyone who doesn’t vote doesn’t get an opinion. But pretending that voting will magically fix everything on its own is equally dumb.
Given that voting doesn’t really affect policy (like at all, studies have shown this), I don’t think it can be considered the baseline. If you want to count yourself as politically active and not just passively acquiescing to the system, you have to be involved with organizing your community.
“thoughts and prayers are the baseline for gun control” and other supernatural beliefs meant to steer people away from actually changing anything
That’s not really how it reads? The end of the comment is the definition of apathy. “Oh my vote doesn’t matter”…
Just because someone is accurately describing the effectiveness of a single vote does not mean they are saying you shouldn’t do it. It’s supposed to be a call to action. Like, if you really care about political outcomes, voting should be the least thing you do.
I don’t think it accurately describes a single vote. That’s like looking at a large data set and only showing a single data point. The point is that there are A LOT of votes.
It doesn’t read like a call to action to me at all… Reads like a doomer post, which is what comment OP says they’re mocking but it definitely doesn’t read that way.
Either way, I’m in agreement with both of you, but I disagree with the approach. I believe it’s the opposite of the stated intent.
Personally, I think it’s more doomer to insist that everyone beat their heads against the wall doing the same one thing that has been proven to not work than to say, “hey, this isn’t working, we should try something else.”
Totally, I don’t insist on beating any heads against any walls.
But simultaneously, I am against apathy posts.
climate policy which is insufficient but delays the necessary work until it’s too late
Thats being very generous to the massive fracking bills and military operations (the worlds largest polluter) we see under Biden. Truth is they are both actively harmful. One might be slightly less harmful but they are both stepping heavy on the speeder accelerating us towards climate apocalypse
Indeed!
Nothing is substantial until it is substantiated. If these poo-liticians and the Killionaires that bribe them actually gave a fuck about the climate they would have enforced policies that substantiated substantial changes DECADES ago when we first started seeing climate change’s effects…
Havent seenthat yet…
Im starting to think that the people oughta govern themselves and get rid of these Shillionaires and their bribed Poo-litiicians and their mercenary pigs so that we can sunstantiate the substantial changes we want to see for ourselves.
We should come up with some kind of name for this new system. Perhaps we’ll use some Greek? That usually sounds cool.
I think things like voter suppression, access to information also weigh a lot heavier than some might think.
I’m also kind of wondering how they came up with this number of 11 million, if people are not politically motivated and activated but are still politically conscious enough to have priorities, there are systemic issues keeping them from voting. And especially at these large numbers, simply saying ‘well they should vote’ and being angry about them supposedly not voting won’t change a damn thing.
We don’t need to yell at people. We need to fucking strategize.
Well said.
because climate concerns are not a concern with either party? both sides may not be the same, but they hold the same views on 90% of all things. and more and more that last 10% seems to be things they want but are still ashamed about it.
Dude, even with the new DSA Democrats I barely hear anything related to climate. Sometimes the green new deal is mentioned, but the only thing that is supposedly radically transforming the economy is AI, not the Democrats, the leftists or anyone with a voice in US politics. It’s really frustrating.
right? like i said elsewhere what do establishment democrats actually stand for, because it is not the following:
climate change, immigration, lgbtq+ protection, reigning in corporations, resisting genocide, universal healthcare, loosening racially motivated drug enforcement, breaking up the prison industrial complex, breaking up the military industrial complex, defunding the police, establishing ranked choice voting, repealing citizens united, making bribery illegal again, nor establishing term limits.
The median voter theorem suggests that the two candidates will both have policies which reflect the median voter, with one of the candidates slightly left of center, the other slightly right of center. This is a result of the candidates wanting the most votes. If the leftmost candidate were too far left, they would lose. It’s a derivable law of behavior as natural as objects falling in parabolic arcs under the effect of gravity. I mention this because there seems to be a prevailing attitude that politics is all corrupt and if there’s no candidate with radical policies to tackle climate change, then it must be because industry has their hands in politics, and nothing you do can change it, and voting merely endorses the system, etc. That’s true in some ways, but I think it’s also true that politicians reflect what the voters want, and it turns out most people are selfish and don’t give a hoot about the health of the planet or future generations. It’s not you versus the politicians. It’s you versus the people electing the wrong politicians. Participation counts. It moves the median closer to where you want it to be. Voting counts. Participating in other ways counts. Vote and talk to people.
bullshit. there is no slightly left of center, that “center” line fucking slides forever and exclusively to the right. the only way to stop that is to not give establishment democrats ANY power. it’s more important to change the tempo of the democratic party then to pretend fight the republicans.
The only way to actually win is to vote for a canidate that actually represents the closest to my actual wants. and the establishment democrats have exactly zero actual alignment on my wants. don’t give me their bullshit campaign promises, my memory is longer then three months.
Bold strategy. Let’s see if it works out. I rather think that if you don’t participate, then you’re effectively not included in the set of people whose interests are considered by politicians when they form their campaign promises. When you do this, the median is likely to shift right, not left as you think, if you take a moment to recall the definition of median. Sometimes we are placed in tough positions with few good options but still having to select one.
I would propose that a lot of the cases of Dems appearing to renege on campaign promises are the result of closed door deals with the other factions where they’re forced to make compromises in order to get some of the things they (and you) desire. We’re not privy to those deals because it would reveal to the voters that the politicians abandoned one wish for another and a competitor would use it against them in a primary, and then there would be no deals and Congress would grind to a halting stalemate.
Probably because both party do not care about climate, they should still at least vote for the green
Oh yes, you can see by the voting records and what each party does with legislation to see they are exactly the same and both treat environmental issues exactly the same. I mean, if you ignore the voting records and what each party does, that is.
Yes, I can see that Republicans are honest about not caring about climate and the Democrats pretend to care. You seem to want a one party system like China
We only have one non-fascist party at the moment, so yeah. But you say that like anyone who prefers one party over another wants a one-party state like they don’t prefer one party over the other.
Find me non-fascist Republicans who are standing up for human rights and I’ll give them a shot, sure.
We only have one non-fascist party at the moment
No. We don’t. Both parties are fascist. The Nazis studied the American system to learn how to build the Third Reich. The ruling class funded the Nazis in Germany and in the US. The US had a huge Nazi movement domestically. Who got purged? The anti-fascist communists. The US has spent over a century purging communist anti-fascists from all forms of meaningful power - media, art, politics, business. There are no non-fascists left in power. It’s just two PR firms selling the same fascism. The Rs are openly racist and the Ds do literally nothing to stop them and in fact create the very systems required for over fascist actions. That’s two fascist parties with a Good Cop / Bad Cop routine.
Unsurprised you’re from .ml with that level of ignorance.
They made some points instead of refuting points you decided to say a fallacy
Have fun explaining what’s “ignorant” about my grasp of history
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Posting history is public. I respond when it’s worth bothering.
Ad hominem
My comment talked about voting for a third party , you completely ignored it and claiming that I support voting for republicans. You basically say yes vote for only one party like China have. You have two terrorists parties who destroyed multiple democracies and countries.
The green party is bankrolled by Russia, it exists exclusively as a spoiler for the democrats to trick the average low information voter.
Are green promising to give billions to Russia to help them invading ukraine? Because both parties did give billions to Israel to exterminate Palestinians. At the end of the day you support a one party system like china have
The green party doesn’t fucking exist three and a half years out of every four. Don’t even try this bullshit.
Democrats and republicans do not exists three and a half years out of every four. The green are in the street organizing from the first day after the end of an election to the first day before the next election . You can keep shaming people all you want and shift the blame from your party failure on everybody else , you ain’t going to change shit.
Fucking hilarious! And your shame is well deserved. You chose all of this when you threw away a vote on a candidate that had no chance to ever win.
Take your bow.
Typical defeatist idiot BS. Yeas i would rather vote for a good people that have no chance to win than evil people they have chance to win. The Stop Cop City and Atlanta Forest Protests and Rock DAPL Protests is two example of the democrats oppressing and beating protestors for supporting the climate.
Idiot like you have zero moral and zero principles. If republicans policies and democrats policues was switched you would stil l side with democrats because you are a dumb cultist.
bOtH siDeS! riTE?!?!!
Take the psyop bullshit elsewhwere, Ivan.
Poor cultist, keep crying
The irony. LMAO!!
If a democrat politician is good than yes I support people voting for them so yeah I am not a cultist. The cultist is dumb people like you who support a one party system.
Yeah. You chose to throw away a vote against fascism, I voted against it.
One of us is dumb, bud, but I don’t think it’s who you think it is. But that’s okay, considering the context here, there is really no way you could possibly have understood.
Democrats are fascists.
“Everyone who disagrees with me is a foreigner, so I can disregard everything they say” and other insane conspiracies for the racist right-wing mind
Because neither of the two parties are good for the climate.
Maybe because they don’t need to bother securing the votes from people who care about the climate since they know that they won’t vote.
Yes Im sure voting for them no matter what will really make them feel like they have to appeal to you
Go fuck yourself, seriously.
Theyre declaring war on trans people, and your apathy is laying a golden carpet to that. Stupid shitbag.
The Democrats spent the last election cycle sacrificing trans people for an imagined Republican that would be willing to vote for a black woman if they just didn’t want trans kids in high school sports.
Dems would likely be better than Republicans for minorities, including trans people, but only just.
Theyre
“They’re” both doing that. Thats what happens when you vote for genociders, they expand the genocide. Did you figure you were going to be safe from the camps just because the democrats like to pinkwash their imperialism?
Or that they’ll vote no matter what. As long as one party can convince people that the other party is evil and they’re good we will never make progress. There’s no reason to actually protect the environment because it won’t earn them more support than they already have.
Sure thing 2 month old .ml account.
You are talking about the 2 parties in your own country called Russia, right?
''Everyone who disagrees with me is a foreigner'' and other insane conspiracies for the right-wing mind
Funny how you types have to resort to silly ad-hominem rather than ever engaging with what people write. You simply cannot handle anyone disagreeing with you. I’ve got an older hexbear account under the same handle you can go check out too, if you need to soothe your paranoid racist mind
Its interesting because they’re correct, but you seem incapable of engaging with their actual statement so instead you go right for a personal attack.
No they are intentionally incorrect. While neither parties care about the environment. One party actively destories it. While the other kind of just keeps things normal.
You fell the russian propaganda hook, line, and sinker.
You see comments on lemmy saying we’re too small to be propaganda bot targets. That is a lie. The fedivser is a community of some of the most brilliant minds that in the world that built the system that controls the others. You think state actors are just going to ignore us?
No. They will use some of the brightest minds of their nation to hand tailor propaganda for us.
As the old saying goes. The best lies have a kernal of truth at the center.
“Normal” being the same actions as the last 300 years that have destroyed the environment?
Both parties actively deteriorate it. Biden massively expanded fracking and the military. These are just the surface of shit.
Instead of engaging with this line of argument you resort to ad hominem fallacies. This is because you have become so paranoid you cannot function normally.
Both parties are destroying the environment, that’s what’s “normal” to capitalism. Rather than engaging with this point, you invent a conspiracy theory of Russian influence and state infiltration just to dodge the left critique of the Democrats.
Notice how I made no mention of which party was which and the poster decided for me. That’s one way the psychologists steer the conversation.
I learned “conspiracy theories” was a term coined by the us CIA to discredit protesters. I learned that from you .ml’ers.
But now that CIA is totally trust worthy to use their language. Hehe yeah.
Damn bro my condolences. A lot of your russian coworkers must of been sent off to war. It’s tough. I used to work with an outsourced tech team from Ukraine. They even visited once and brought some fancy vodka. I often wonder what happened to them.
I’m a Statesian, and am using the term to reference a baseless theory grounded purely in gut reaction. I am not trusting the CIA whatsoever in identifying your theory as both baseless and a gut reaction. We must seek truth from facts, not blindly invent whatever reinforces our narrative.
Which of the two pro-corporate neoliberal parties in the US care about the environment again?
The one that doesn’t actively try to destroy it.
Is this some kind of trick question?
Which one is that?
because the system is set up not to. it’s not a real democracy.
The only way to prove that is by voting. Otherwise there’s plausible deniability.
it’s proven every 4 years then
If you think the only vote that matters is the presidential you’re part of the problem
why vote with useless ballots to vote in this genocidal capitalist or THAT genocidal capitalist when you can vote with guns and violence as thousands of years of human history have proven can actually substantiate substantial change?
Ever notice how their form of voting actually substantiated substantial changes? Hmmmmmm … 😏
I think a more interesting question would be, regardless of someone’s priorities, why they don’t vote.
I know for a lot of people it’s A. Didn’t feel like their vote mattered, B. None of the candidates matched their desires, I.e. non of the above earned their vote, whether by not lining up on issues, or being perceived to only give stated values lip service, C. Voter suppression, whether that be inability to go vote because work/schedule, voter roll purges, voter eligibility being repressed due to cost of documents, no transportation access to polling place, etc, D. Being too burnt out to even paying attention to politics/voting; or some combination of the above.
Report 1: https://www.uniteamerica.org/articles/report-most-americans-votes-dont-matter-in-deciding-elections
Report 2: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy
The second one is the real whale and is from 2014, so extrapolate how much worse it is now.
Thanks for these great links. Some thought provoking insights.
I’m thankfully not from anywhere near that place, but I always assumed a lot of people there feel that their vote won’t improve their lives… so it remains a duopoly that rarely ever improves their lives.
