Joe Biggs, a Proud Boys leader convicted of seditious conspiracy who the government says “served as an instigator and leader” during the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol, was sentenced to 17 years in federal prison on Thursday.
It is among the longest sentences in Capitol riot cases. The record is the 18-year sentence given to Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes, also convicted of seditious conspiracy, after prosecutors sought 25 years in federal prison in his case.
“We have to be careful to count speech for what it is and not what it might do”
— Biggs’ lawyer, Norm Pattis
got it! gonna find the nearest crowded movie theatre and yell “FIRE!” at the top of my lungs. thanks, norm!
In general, a conspiracy charge can’t be sustained on speech alone; even speech wherein two or more people agree to commit a crime. It additionally requires some overt material act in furtherance of the conspiracy.
If Alice, Bob, and Carla get together and make a plan to break Dan’s window and steal his fancy new TV, that’s just talk. But if Alice then goes to the hardware store and buys a window-smashing hammer, now all three can be convicted for conspiracy to commit burglary.
In this case, Biggs’ overt acts in furtherance of the conspiracy included actually breaking down fences to get at Congress.
indeed. this is why the speech itself must be considered as part of the conspiracy. the comment by his lawyer seems to take the entire act and reframe it around the speech, when its clear the speech and the act are, essentially, one in this case.
edit: errant full stop
Yeah, the latest conservative tactic for pardoning criminality seems to be generalizing the acts into meaninglessness then pretending that generalized act is what’s being prosecuted. This case very clearly fits the definition of a criminal conspiracy but they’re trying to convince the base that the DoJ is ready to prosecute all conservatives for wrongthink.
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so is a conspiracy, incitement, etc… we are talking about the freedom of speech vs freedom of concequence from that speech. that is what I take issue with. inciting panic in closed confines has immediate consequences - this is clear and therefore typically prohibited.
political speech fomenting real-world violence (or panic) should result in the same level of legal consequence when action is taken based on that speech. imho, you can not separate the speech from the act once the act has taken place.
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It actually isn’t.
“Shouting fire in a crowded theater” is a popular analogy for speech or actions whose principal purpose is to create panic, and in particular for speech or actions which may for that reason be thought to be outside the scope of free speech protections. The phrase is a paraphrasing of a dictum, or non-binding statement, from Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.'s opinion in the United States Supreme Court case Schenck v. United States in 1919, which held that the defendant’s speech in opposition to the draft during World War I was not protected free speech under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. The case was later partially overturned by Brandenburg v. Ohio in 1969, which limited the scope of banned speech to that which would be directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot).[1]
The paraphrasing differs from Holmes’s original wording in that it typically does not include the word falsely, while also adding the word “crowded” to describe the theatre.[2]
It’s not as cut and dry as that-
“The falsely shouted warning, while technically speech, could potentially violate a state’s criminal laws against disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct, whether or not it provokes a stampede, for instance."
-Nashwa Gewaily, a media and First Amendment lawyer
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Speech alone isn’t, this guy did more than speak.
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Not in their minds. In their minds they “did it” and “stood up to a tyrannical government” and “tried to stop the Dems from stealing” they just got stopped by the deep state once again cuz it is afraid of how awesome trump is.
These people don’t live in reality. They’ve built a whole alternate one where trump is a billionaire and Russia helping him get elected was a hoax and the corrupt Ukraine phone call is a hoax and trump has a 6 pack of abs.
They literally built a Golden idol of him. They went to the grassy knoll to wait for JFK to come back from the dead. They try to deposit trump bucks in atms. But they also build your house, drive on your roads, send their kids to your schools and vote in your elections.They are ignorant, and stupid, yes. But the only way to fix that is education and they hate that too.
Just a friendly reminder to any shit-birds reading; this is the nicest version of what we will do to traitors. You will not overthrow the government, you will not reinstate a four time impeached Yankee carpet bagger as president, you will not pass go, nor will you collect $200. You will simply rot in prison, again: at best.
Just a reminder: on the day tweets were claiming the gallow was brought into DC by one of the vehicles in Alex Jones’ motorcade.
We need to be clear here: Mike Pence was going to be assassinated on January 6th.
And Pence is still jerking them all off, his would be lynchers.
Hey, it’s his thing. He likes his wife to control his behavior towards women and his would be assassins to piss on him.
Not so proud to be America’s neofascist enemy anymore I’m guessing.
He claims that, “I’m not a terrorist, I don’t have hate in my heart.” It’s funny how all of them are just so magically reformed once they’re facing actual prison time.
With good behavior, he can be free in only 14.5 years, and he was let off lightly.
Imagine throwing away almost 15 years of your life, destroying your family, and losing everything you worked for, because you believed Trump. Then finding out that it was all one big lie.
Really sounds like he fucked around and found out.
Fucked around; found out.
Can we retire this phrase already?
It’s almost as bad as “first” from the days of message boards.
It sort of started out for contexts like the drunken bean pole baiting the bouncer. I think the current more political/court system is an OK variation. It might be getting older but it’s still useful, funny, poignant
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Play stupid games, win stupid prizes
Does proud boys sound super gay to anyone else ?
Aren’t they named after a show tune?
I like calling them Pink Boys (in the Subgenius sense).
Praise “Bob”.
… Good lord, we’re old aren’t we?
That’s just what The Conspiracy would have you believe! XD
The greatest trick ever pulled was liberal New York city elite trump convincing southern yokels he’s one of them. You can fool some of the people all of the time. They’re called conservatives.
Trump was perfectly situated to build a coalition of easily manipulated rural blue collar workers who felt (rightly in many cases) that they’ve been abandoned by the Democratic party…wealthy elites who saw one of their own and felt comfortable and confident that he’d protect their interests…and closet racists, bigots, and neo-fascists all across the country who heard his dog whistles loud and clear.
Combine that with party discipline to fall in behind whoever the party tapped and he ended up with just enough people in just the right locations to snatch the 2016 election.
Unfortunately for Trump, over the next four years, he failed to deliver much of any value to those rural voters, and failed to inflict enough cruelty for the far right contingent, and was too volatile for comfort for enough of those elites that he couldn’t put together enough of an effort to take 2020.
While I don’t want to jinx it, I feel like 2016 was an absolute perfect storm for him and he’ll never be able to scrape up the necessary votes in the necessary states to win another presidential election.
Later, loser.
Tarrio is the one I’m waiting on… Good riddance to bad rubbish!
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Thanks Bot, but in this particular case I’m going to savour every word of the full article. No hard feelings.
Not long enough, but when is it ever?
Let’s get all the Pink Boys and Oath Breakers into prison. And same for those that planned the coup and goaded them into this.
Also, I want to get Flynn and his brother and Wray under the microscope, too. What did they know, when did they know it and who were they talking to?
Susprised they’ve given him a harsh sentence
Harsh? Please. He tried to overthrow the government and he got less time than someone caught with a single joint in Mississippi
Pretty sure that’s an exaggeration
The government was seeking 33 years. This is a lenient sentence.
