- cross-posted to:
- fedibridge@lemmy.dbzer0.com
- cross-posted to:
- fedibridge@lemmy.dbzer0.com
As this project appears to be fairly unknown in the fediverse still, I’d like to use this opportunity to advertise Flohmarkt. This Fediverse equivalent of Facebook Marketplace already has some instances up and running - see here: https://codeberg.org/flohmarkt/flohmarkt/wiki/flohmarkt-instances
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The name has already made this nonviable for the average person
We have to stop sending end users to software solutions for web admins. We don’t send them yo “nginx” or “apache”, after all.
Someone throw up a website using this software and give the site a sensible name, and then direct users to that website.
Flohcebook Marktplace
Fleabook
Flohcebook mohktplohce
Just call it Floh Market or just Floh. Flow Market or Just “Flow” would be good too.
I like just “Floh”, even if it does just mean “flea” in German.
Fleabuch Maktplatz
You wanna pay for that hosting? No? Okay then.
It’s not that bad. It’s just German for flea market. And English speakers shouldn’t have an issue with at least “Markt”. Not far from a cognate.
Definitely better names but I think the bigger hurdle is getting the critical mass to get something like marketplace to work in the fediverse even with the perfect name.
Yep. It’s kind of annoying when people see everything through an “english” lense and assume anything that isn’t made to work for english speakers won’t work…
german looks notoriously complicated for people who dont speak it
The sentence structure is kinda wonky coming from English, but the vocab isn’t bad. There are tons of cognates.
Does it? If you set up an instance for your local community/city/whatever, and name it something that makes sense for your intended userbase, I think it would be fine.
It goes from “I sold my couch on FlohMarkt” to “I sold my couch on Local Ottawa Marketplace” for the ‘normies’ out there. They’re not going to care about the underlying software so long as their couch gets sold.
Do recommend a DIY local advertising strategy if trying to get something like this running, though - posters at IRL flea markets, adverts in small community papers for antiques and collectibles, crossposts/links to postings on stuff like MaxSold/Kijiji/Craigslist/GumTree/FB Marketplace/[insert online marketplace operating in your area] by first adopters, that kind of thing.
Focus on the current primary use case of centralized marketplace services (buying shit from your neighbours), then introduce the “Oh yeah, we’ve also set it up so you can see postings on Local Toronto Marketplace, Local Kingston Marketplace, Marché Local de Montréal” etc. from there.
I really, really think talking to people in terms of specific instances over the overarching platform/protocol is a way around ‘normie’ confusion about the Fediverse when first trying it, then getting exposure to how it works in practice will help them understand the nitty gritty stuff better. Is this problematic in some cases, like with Lemmy? A little bit, yeah. For something like FlohMarkt? I think less so.
(‘normie’ in quotes 'cause I’m not the biggest fan of the term, but it’s a useful shorthand)
This! It’s just the name of the software, not sure why everyone’s getting so worked up about it.
I think it’s a brilliant use case for federation, hope this sees some adoption!
SPEAK ENGLISH ÖR DIE
Germans speak or not as ör out. When you us imitate want, then make it pleasly right!
Sabbel ma nich so vonner seit döspaddel
I have myself apparently mistaken, I please about apology. In future will I try, no generalized sentence about Germans to do.
Germans don’t have sentences, they have long words.
Oh look, the Queen of Naming has spoken! Everything should just be named “Facebook something” or “Twitter that”.
iMarket is better? gStore? 銷 !
“gStore” sounds… suspicious. XD
I can’t understand why every other fediverse name is so stupid as to be off putting to the average user.
- Lemmy is no better or worse than Reddit
- Pixelfeed is significantly better than Instagram
- Mastodon is much worse than Twitter
Seems to me pretty much an even spread of how good the names are
For other Fediverse software:
- Misskey is unmistakable which already makes it a good name
- PeerTube is on par with YouTube and is perfectly transparent as a description of software: “YouTube but with P2P”
- Writefreely is another clear but already proper name, definitely better than Medium or Substack (ony Medium’s advantage - it sounds better in non-English languages)
- Loops and Friendica remind better of their purposes than TikTok/Vine and Facebook
- … on the other hand, every Threadiverse app, no matter if it is /kbin, Mbin, Lemmy or PieFed, fails with it
Lemmy is a stupid god awful name.
The first result you get on google is a dead singer. Every other search you will have him on the front page instead of what you’re trying to find. Contrast this to searching for something from reddit.
Case in point guitar reviews lemmy vs guitar reviews reddit
“Facebook” is an equally alienating name if you don’t know English. But I agree, German is difficult!
God… remember how fucking simple craigslist was when it hit it’s peak? The fact that Grandpa could take a shaky flip phone picture and post a thing you needed right around the corner, no fat or other frivolous horseshit…
Craigslist is still simple last I checked, but the user base left and now dominated by spam from retail and drop shippers masquerading as local people selling goods from their garage.
Nothing gold can stay
At least when I used Craigslist, there was no social network element to it, so it was difficult to determine the trustworthiness of any given poster.
For that reason, I don’t want a Fediverse clone of Craigslist – I want an existing Fediverse platform to add a marketplace. I will not use anonymous marketplaces.
If you feel any kind of meaningful trustworthiness from a Facebook profile, you’ve probably got some other things to worry about…
I don’t agree? Even in big cities, I’ve often seen marketplace posts from people with mutual friends, so I could easily verify their trustworthiness. In other scenarios I can at least check to see if their posting history and/or profile seems legit or if there are any red flags. Having more data helps people decide whether to trust someone, but Craigslist doesn’t allow for that.
But now that FB is overrun by AI bots and real users leave, there won’t be many mutual friends left very soon…
“I will not use anonymous marketplaces.”
“I won’t take cash, either” vibes
What if you could log in with your Mastodon (or other) Fediverse account, and they would too, so you could see their user history and connections? (And they could see yours)
That would be cool!
You can use gpg signatures
That wouldn’t really solve it though. The problem is not a man in the middle attack. It’s someone scamming you. They can do it, then generate another signature, repeat, etc.
Web of trust - did you hear? https://www.gnupg.org/gph/en/manual/x547.html
So you only trade with people in your web of trust? That’s not feasible. People flock to these websites to trade with strangers. You don’t need a middleman to trade with people you already trust.
Friend of friend networks, that’s how classmates have benefits created ( a prototype to “prove” 6 connections theory )
#flohmarkt is a tool to publish content in the form of a small ad / classified ad: on other fediverse services it scrolls by in the timeline. On a flohmarkt site it sticks in its place like a slip of paper containing a note on some bulletin board.
People can offer or search for services or goods. The federation radius irl across different flohmarkts can be limited by a distance setting.
Primary goal is to help people meet and exchange services, goods, opinions.
https://chrichri.ween.de/articles/dca424d/flohmarkt-a-federated-small-advertisement-server
I think you replied to the wrong comment chain, but thanks for info.
Idk. It’s still got some uses. My dad got a bunch of industrial refrigerator panels for stupid cheap off Craigslist like 6 months ago.
Yeah, you can still get something from the odd crank, but used to be much more practically useful for day to day needs.
Great idea. I just wonder how Flohmarkt is read by non-Germans. Anyone want to state their opinion, their initial experience seeing the word, on that?
I think an English localization as ‘Flowmarkt’ or ‘Flowmarket’ might be more catchy in English-speaking countries, since the intended pronunciation for ‘Flohmarkt’ isn’t clear at a first glance.
Why would English be objectively better than German?
Because more people speak it?
This is about localization, not about renaming the thing
Got it, let’s name it in mandarin then
Language Native Speakers Total Speakers Sources English ~380 million ~1.5 billion Wikipedia German ~76–95 million ~155–220 million Wikipedia Mandarin ~941 million–1.12 billion ~1.1–1.3 billion Wikipedia Well, it has 10x more speakers than German, but it still has fewer speakers than English and most of them are localised in a single country.
Please stop being an obnoxious ass. English is the de-facto lingua franca of the world, acting like German is in any way comparable is just disingenuous.
I love that you called it the lingua franca.
Why yes, English is the French.
Uh do you not know what “lingua franca” means or are you making a joke?
Chinese says hi.
Please stop these idiotic arguments. I don’t think you’re actually so dumb, that you don’t understand what my point was. So you’re being willfully obtuse just to annoy other people. Also, Chinese isn’t a thing. You probably mean Mandarin Chinese, which does have the highest number of native speakers. But English is still the common language (or lingua franca) across the world, even though it is number 3 in terms of native speakers.
Still doesn’t mean everything has to be named in English, or with whatever naming idioms marketing people and shareholders like. Have some variety in life. Go touch grass.
I didn’t say it was. An important aspect of promoting the adoption of any product or service is having a brand name that is easily pronounceable to facilitate word-of-mouth promotion. It’s something that’s all the more important for a Fediverse service, given the lack of means to promote Flohmarkt with paid advertising campaigns.
While Flohmarkt works as a brand name in German, it’s not immediately clear how to pronounce it in English, versus the easily pronounced Lemmy, Mastodon, Misskey, Pixelfed, Loops, and Friendica. For that reason, ‘Flohmarkt’ should be kept as the platform’s name in German-speaking countries, but be localized as ‘Flowmarkt’ or ‘Flowmarket’ in English-speaking ones.
Do you think Flohmarkt is worse than Volkswagen?
Yes, since the pronunciation of Volkswagen can be inferred from taking ‘Volks’ as rhyming with ‘Folks’ and either pronouncing ‘wagen’ as intended—with ‘gen’ rhyming with the ‘gain’ in ‘again’—or just pronouncing it as ‘wagon’. In contrast, the pronunciation of ‘kt’ at the end of ‘flohmarkt’ can’t be inferred from an existing English word. Additionally, using the spelling ‘flow’ disambiguates the English pronunciation of ‘floh’, especially when dialect is taken into account.
Ultimately, because Volkswagen has had decades of advertisements marketing its proper pronunciation and making the brand name widely-recognized, it has an inherent advantage in terms of brand recognition to start with.
I’d bet a lot of money the average English speaker pronounces Volkswagen with a “vee” at the beginning
The Latin alphabet is overloaded. Words using the same script will inevitably be interpreted by other languages using their own sound systems. Orthography is bad. Plus, it’d be like asking a Spanish speaker why they say “eschool” instead of “school” (phonotactics).
just read it as ‘flow market,’ realized it was german, and looked up the word. it doesn’t look weird at first glance.
I read it as being pronounced something like “flow-marked”
yeah, it’s quite close
Initial impressions of the name are not great.
Non-German but I am in the EU. Didn’t find it odd at all. Just assumed it was “flow market” in German.
Close. It’s flea market.
Indonesian here.
Indonesian have highest trilingual population in the world, and our country regularly import foreign pop media, like from Japan, China, Turkiye, French, Argentine, and so on.
That name seems cool and we will never have problem with it.
In fact, a lot of FOSS software in Asia almost always use local language or pop culture reference for their project. Whether it’s in Chinese, Persian, Hindi, Javanese, Japanese, and so on.
Swede here, see no issue with the name. I’ll just ignore the h when pronouncing though.
That’s what you should do anyway, the h simply elongates the o
“flow market”
Definitely weird on first reading. New names often seem weird or dumb at first so maybe I’ll just get used to it. Anglicizing it might make sense? Fleamarkt?
I forgot its spelling the moment i scrolled past it.
My American brain wants to read it as “FlowMart”, or “Flowmark”. Neither of which I have a problem with.
Which is also reasonably close to the German pronunciation (which is something like Flo-marked to an English speaker)
At least most speakers of European languages will pronounce it close enough to German - though most will not do make the r in markt as hard as Germans do.
though most will not do make the r in markt as hard as Germans do.
Most German dialects (including standard German) barely pronounce that r. It is noticeable, but far from a “hard” pronunciation, in that case i is more like prolonging the “a” sound.
Yeah but if you had to search for it you’d have a trouble spelling it. Flowmarked would be how English speakers would hear that I think.
It probably needs an English brand name for outside the germano-sphere - fedimarket?
And why should we name things for the exclusive convenience of monolingual English speakers to the detriment of everyone else?
I don’t disagree conceptually, but English has been a lingua franca for a long time now.
That’s not an issue for brands. German and Chinese brands are just doing fine everywhere with the possible exception of the two countries in the world where people are not exposed to other languages.
It honestly just looks like a spelling mistake to me
It reads like regurgitating dehydrated phlegm
Edit:
Anyone want to state their opinion?
Germans: “Das is der inkorrect opinion Herr Irlandisch”
Pole here.
A federated MediaMarkt. Or at least something with shopping, selling something. Definitely a German product. Should be a quality one, but I would name my instance (or a national one) differently, perhaps in a local language.
There is no point in making worldwide Flohmarkt instances (same for Mobilizon), so, the naming should be less a problem than you expect
Great idea. I just wonder how Flohmarkt is read by non-Germans.
Those non-Germans using Huawei/Xiaomi phones or buying from Shein? I reckon they’d not bat an eyelid, especially for English-speakers when you explain it means “flea market”. With Shein if anyone even bothers asking about the name, all they want to know is how to pronounce it (“she in”, not “shine” or “sheen”) and what it means (“it’s complicated”, “OK, never mind then”).
What about Craigslist
Ghost town and nothing but scams and business spam at this point. It’s a shame that FB marketplace killed it, because it was relatively simple and useful for what it did
What I want is an eBay alternative. Like old school eBay, with basic (non obscured) reputation system, auction options, stuff like that.
That name…
Sprich deutsch!
Du
Nachkömmling
Maybe someone may want to put links to Flohmarkt instances on Craigslist or FB Marketplace to put more eyes on it?
as always with these, it really comes down to whos using it.
This is what i need so i can finally delete facebook but unfortunately this is too early and small with nothing piblically uk based and no one looking at it so things would never sell.
Bit of a chicken and egg situation there.
I suppose we could spin up a UK instance or find someone who would but then you’d need numbers to make it work too. However, if people would be interested in using this then speak up and it’d be easier to asses the need. It could be something regional instances bolt on as an added service.
UK instance please! :)
Add to the wiki please :)
Cannot register with either of those instances
What a horrible name.
It’s German
What a horrible language.
It is well known that only names which are in the devinely decreed English language are acceptable on the internet
I just set up a Slovenian instance, flohmarkt.gregtech.eu
Edit: which range should I use for it, which one do you recommend?
Maybe you can request your instance to be added here: https://codeberg.org/flohmarkt/flohmarkt/wiki/flohmarkt-instances
Already added it
any of them US?
Feel free to host an US instance :)
Really interesting! can’t wait to see how it progresses along.
I am super curious how does it stack against DAC7 European Directive 2021/514 from 22 march 2021.
The European law says that such sites must provide a list of users and sales
No matter where the site is operated from, as long as EU citizens can access it from their home countries?
Because I doubt that even fb marketplace can muster that with plausible accuracy. Especially the sales. When you take something down on marketplace it will ask if you sold it or not, but you can just tell it to mind its own business and say “no I totally just changed my mind”
Yes as long as business is accessible in EU it must set up hq in one of the eu countries and report data on sellers to that country government. (Thus phone number registration requirement which to have you must show and record ID and personal information to mobile carrier)
how does that work for flohmarkt I don’t know but I can try to set up an instance and we will see what happens. Will there be any nasty letters or not. I suspect as long as it is small thing no one will be interested but if it grew there probably would be an attempt to take it down and fines
I would really really want it to work so we can just don’t care about ever watchful big brother
The thing is that since all content is federated, each government would have to ask every single instance worldwide for user data. Seems unenforceable.
@Emmie @Temperche
IANAL but: researching this topic was indeed a task during the first year of the project. The German implementation of DAC7 (the PStTG) includes an exception for digital black boards like flohmarkt. The criterion is that there is no formal form of forming a contact on the platform itself. Here’s the official statement (see 1.1) https://www.bzst.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Digitale_Plattformbetreiber/FAQ_PStTG.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=3bonus: you’ll will find many more hillariously unpronouncable words in this document.
Does your EU-country has exceptions?
@Emmie @Temperche might need to add that the exception is implicit. we’ve always argued that way before we knew this FAQ. until it came to our attention we just weren’t sure because, well, we’re no lawyers, duh :)
Interesting idea. How do you deal with illegal trade?
Maybe just like Facebook Market, simply ignore it? /s
I tried to use it myself and it really isn’t ready yet. It’s missing so many features that a specialized Lemmy instance seems like a much better alternative.
Maybe share your vision with the devs or actively contribute yourself to the development of this platform? :)
