Seems very much like indoctrination to get kids to “fall in line” and enforced conformity, to try to remove independent thinking.
I’ve always hated the idea of that. What do you think about it?
I always hated it growing up, too. My school didn’t even have a uniform, only a dress code, and I hated that, too.
But my kids go to a school with a uniform, and now I can see the advantages:
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this school subsidizes the uniforms heavily, even to the point of giving them away outright to students in need, so it represents a form of clothing that is affordable for all
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kids can’t fight with parents about what they wear to school, because it’s predetermined
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every kid wears the same thing, which helps smooth out class-indicators: kids don’t get bullied for wearing hand-me-downs or unfashionable clothes because everyone wears the same thing
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makes it very easy to determine who is supposed to be on campus and who is not; similarly, since the school has a big emphasis on outside-the-classroom learning, makes it very easy to identify students out on fieldwork
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saves me money since the uniforms are unisex and my son can wear the hand-me-downs of his older sisters
And to address your criticism: Yes, uniforms tend to promote group cohesion but that’s not always a bad thing. It encourages collaboration over competition, for example.
Point 3 has always been a great equaliser. I grew up in a household that was tight for money, and I never felt that my school wear defined my “class”, quite the opposite.
Now I’m older and am in a comparatively fortunate position financially, I’m happy to kit out my kids in a uniform. I don’t really want them flashing brand names or in an arms race to look the most fashionable, and I don’t want the less fortunate folk in the class to feel left behind.
If a uniform is plain and inexpensive, I think the positives outweigh the negatives.
As a parent of 2 kids under 10, at this age they don’t care about brands. The school uniforms are much more expensive than any t shirts or shorts or track pants from Kmart or bigW (Aussie retailers). Poorer kids still get hand me downs and second hand, whereas richer kids get brand new. Most kids are only-child these days, so the concept of hand me downs is less prevalent within a family.
For teens, I can understand that point, but for teens I think self expression and exploring identity are key parts of growing up.
My oldest is a senior in highschool. From what I have observed, appearance – especially for teenage girls – is less about self expression and more about seeking approval from other girls. Clothing is entirely a status symbol.
There’s often a few girls who are the “trend setters”, a much larger group of “followers” that basically look like carbon copies of one another, and yet another group that doesn’t follow the latest “trend” because they either can’t afford to or (much less often) don’t care.
My daughter is obsessed with looks, as are most of her peers. Trying desperately to fit in because she’s not yet mature enough to realize that it doesn’t matter if all the other girls “like” her. It only really matters if she likes herself.
I’ve told her, only half joking, that she will know a guy is good boyfriend material when he asks her which books she’s read lately.
Parts of growing up that are intentionally suppressed
I guess it depends on the strictness of a dress code but theres usually ways to express and explore even with a set clothing expectation.
About the class indicators thing: don’t people find a way around that by wearing expensive watches, jewelry or accessories?
Usually people find a way to value signal imho.
In my experienfe they just verbally brag about how rich their parents are lmao.
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There are valid arguments for and against, but I really don’t think the word ‘authoritarianism’ is at all applicable here.
Definitely applicable.
Entire atmosphere feels a lot more weirder because everyone is forced to wear the same thing. Reminds me of when I was in China, where they forced little kids to wear the little red scarf, which symbolized communism.
In your example it can be. But if no nationalistic rationale is behind the uniforms that are worn than it’s not authoritarian.
So it can be but it’s not a given.
I think is preparation for a white collar job. Everyone in the office usually use a uniform and there is nothing wrong with that. I feel like it is an exaggeration
Exactly, preparing for wage slavery, by re-enforcing conformity and “don’t you dare step out of line” from a young age. Authoritarianism.
Btw, China is a State Capitalist regime.
So you want everyone in society to be rogue and fuck the system that keeps things moving? I will never understand this mindset dude.
“If we don’t force everyone to wear the same clothes the fabric of society will collapse!”
Is that what you’re saying?
Conforming to society does not equal authoritarianism
It could be if one is forced to conform.
For me, the uniform was liberating. People who wanted to bully me needed to find something more substantive than just my clothes. Bullies tend to be stupid, so this was hard for them.
If your individuality is all tied up in your physical appearance, try to develop your mind a bit. I am nonconformist in a thousand ways, each of which is more important than how i dress.
If your individuality is all tied up in your physical appearance, try to develop your mind a bit.
Kind of condescending, no? Also, they’re kids. Teenagers especially are all about their phsyical appearance… and their minds are developing.
I suppose it probably seems strange to an outsider but in a country where it’s the norm for every school, it didn’t feel like that to me at all. I see it more as an equaliser? In a way I also kind of miss not having to decide what to wear every day.
Honestly, my main concern about school uniforms is that I think they ought to be standardised and subsidised, because the expense can sometimes be a problem.
Counterpoint: Americans would say the same - “I suppose it probably seems strange to an outsider but in a country where it’s the norm for every school, it didn’t feel like that to me at all.” - about pledging their undying loyalty every morning to the flag on the wall of every single classroom starting at the age of 6.
Not to say that it’s the same thing at all, indoctrination on that scale is completely different from a freaking school uniform, but the base is the same - it doesn’t seem weird because it’s what you were told was normal.
As an adult, I can see some good arguments for uniforms in this thread, but as a kid, I stopped saying the Pledge of Allegiance in middle school and swore that nobody could make me wear a tie like my dad had to for school. One of the big things that bothered me about school dress codes as I got older was the inherent misogyny on display. Some rules from my high school dress code, for example:
During Spring/Summer, boys may wear t-shirts and shorts. Girls must wear pants or skirts. Skirts must be below the knee. Girls are allowed to wear t-shirts, but only if the sleeves are at least 4 inches long and must be a unisex crew neck shirt. Shirts with a v neck or that show the collarbone are too revealing and are not allowed.
Also in the US is the issue that school uniforms are universally a private school thing, and so create a divide of elitism as a clear signal of those whose parents are wealthy enough to send their kids to a private school vs kids who go to public schools. Those divides start at home, though, and I don’t know how much a school uniform does to deprogram that kind of rhetoric from your parents and their friends.
Americans would say the same … about pledging their undying loyalty every morning to the flag on the wall of every single classroom starting at the age of 6.
Except they don’t. I and everyone I’ve ever discussed it with think it’s weird as hell.
I don’t either, I think it’s super weird and creepy, but most people that I’ve talked to about it have never even thought about it before, and the people around my parents’ age consider it “patriotic.”
Also in the US is the issue that school uniforms are universally a private school thing
As a non-American who watched The Wire, I know that is not true. So I looked it up and apparently 19% of US public schools use school uniforms (risen from 3% in the mid 1990s). Source: https://www.uniformmarket.com/statistics/school-uniform-statistics
This makes sense as I was in school before 2010, so my experience would’ve been from before more schools started adopting them. And my dad would’ve probably been in school in the 50s, so when he was wearing a school uniform with a tie everyday, it was absolutely a rich private school thing.
Not at all. On the contrary, I found them quite liberating, for 2 main reasons:
- not having to decide what to wear every day
- I was in a British private school, where students came from upper middle class to upper class backgrounds. A lot of the really rich students were shallow, superficial, and cruel. If we didn’t have uniforms we would have had a serious bullying problem against those who couldn’t afford to wear high end/designer brands.
The only downside is that we had to pay for the uniforms, and they were quite expensive compared to the awful materials they were made of. I had 3 sets on rotation.
I loved school uniforms as a deeply autistic young man who really, REALLY struggled with all the silent peer pressures of fashion.
There was an outfit I could wear without half a thought every day and no one cared.
My post history and reputation will back that I am left as fuck, but I love uniforms because I hate clothes and all the stupid ass stipulations society has purposely and inadvertently put on them. Spending any more than 5 secs selecting what’s gonna cover me for the day is already too long.
Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate all the ideological arguments made against them, and don’t counter them, I simply yearn to live in a world where we’re ALL on the same team and working together, and what one wears means fuck and all.
Then we should work towards the goal that every kid has enough so they can wear whatever they want and it being accepted by the others rather then going the shortcut with uniforms and robing the kids, who want to express them self through cloths, of that choice.
False dichotomy.
and it being accepted by the others
You can change policy, but it’s extremely hard to change people. Burying your head in the sand and pouting that people should be the ones to change is going to achieve nothing.
I love uniforms because I hate clothes and all the stupid ass stipulations society has purposely and inadvertently put on them.
But uniforms still reflect the social expectations. I don’t trust the designers of the cloth to reflect everyone’s needs. My clothing for example needs to be flexible and durable enough for me to climb a tree and fall back down without worry.
Spending any more than 5 secs selecting what’s gonna cover me for the day is already too long.
There are 2 questions I ask myself when selecting cloth for the day:
- What is the weather like?
- Will I do something that could ruin a good T-shirt today?
Soccer uniforms have to be same color too it’s not “authoritarianism.”
Also idk about psychology but just a tiny bit of cohesion is much better over extreme individualism no?
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Americans had “unity” after 9/11
Uh, no we didn’t. Source: am American, lived through that period.
Yes we had a brief period of unity (and solidarity with NYC) following 9/11, but as soon as the American War Machine woke up, my country was intensely divided.
And even then I am assuming muslim Americans were still left out on that small period of unity.
School uniforms enforced that everyone has to wear arbitrarily vs uniforms to differentiate the two teams in a spectator sport.
I work in schools. Pre-uniforms, there were so so many girls who arrived in appropriate clothes and then removed the top layer. Children shouldnt wear clothes to school that are more revealing than what you’d see in a bar. Social media teaches them that the goal is attention and it doesn’t matter if it’s positive or negative.
I was actually going to say I hated how misogynistic teachers were at school when it came to any dress code. They hyper focused on what girls were wearing, were their straps too narrow, were their shorts/skirts too high, etc. I have had teachers harass me about my clothes during my entire schooling starting from elementary school. We are drilled into us that our bodies are too revealing, scandalous, and dirty, so we should be ashamed. But then you become an adult and no one really gives a fuck what you wear. The only place that cares is where you end up working, and that can really be anything ranging from a fast food uniform to a suit to whatever you want to wear, etc. I’m not sure what your age is, but schools have made girls feel responsible for how other boys and men feel about their clothes since before social media. It’s our fault for being a “distraction” and ruining the learning environment. I had a male teacher fixate on me at one point, he said he turned his a/c on 24/7 to force all the girls to cover up but when I wouldn’t since I liked the a/c then it became his mission to stop lessons to tell me to cover up aka put a jacket on and make a big deal if I did not have one that day. Your comment reminded me of that teacher, and how much I was slut-shamed because my tank tops revealed my shoulders - gasp!
They’re definitely a form of oppression.
I’d say school in general is a form of authoritarianism. Take a look at US schools compared to schools in North Korea, and they are extremely similar.
Idk about North Korea but I went to school in mainland China and I definitely notice a lot of similarities.
China does a ceremony where they raise the flag ceremonies every week and sing national anthem every day, they do this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Pioneers_of_China
The US also does national anthems and pledge of allegiance.
Very similar rituals. Both teaches obedience. To mold people into wage slaves, to always obey your future employers.
Imo it’s much better than a cult of clothing brands.
Funny enough, my US schools didn’t regulate shoes, so kids would just get thousand-dollar designer shoes and “show off” anyways. Also, backpacks are not regulated. You could get bullied if your shoes or backback looks “cheap”.
Also, the Android vs iPhone thing.
I didn’t have good casual clothes in school.
On the other hand, the uniforms were priced to the point of extortion, so I’d say they came off as elitist flexing, if not authoritarian.
The only winner is getting kids decent clothes that aren’t expensive or drab. And yes, there absolutely is a middle ground for that.
Oh absolutely can be, and is absolutely often used as such.
However, as usual depends on the context. Properly subsidized it can help students not only gave greater pride in their appearance and success in classes if you aren’t having to worry about not getting good clothes or any that fit properly.
On the other hand it can be cripplingly over expensive and cheap ass.
Things a common grade school essay question which I think we’re helping OP answer
Nah, a kid would just chatgpt it these days.
I’m just remember how much I hated teachers and school admins because they called the gestapo (aka, USA Police) on me once after I defended myself against bullying.
What does that have to do with uniforms bigsad?
It made them showerthink about schools?
Yep. They also seem to completely ignore neurodiverse people; I don’t know what I’d have done if my school had uniforms.
You just suffer then.
Yeah I kinda figured out it’d have been that.
