The drama and accusations the GrapheneOS developers are spewing and engaging in are giving me a bad taste in the mouth and make me doubt the OS’s reliability am I the only one?
Not as bad a taste as the French government is giving me.
If its do I trust GOS or a confirmed pro chat control governments side of the story, its an easy choice.
There are many more sides than those 2. GOS is screaming about a new “harrassment” campaign every week.
Their past dramas are irrelevant to this issue.
Giving into a straw man argument such as their other dramas somehow devalue what’s going on now, only plays into the French propaganda campaign.
They’re not irrelevant, they’re both symptoms of the same problem. The Developer Who Cried Wolf.
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Who said anything about a forum?
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Look at their social accounts. Half their posts are complaining about some sort of “harrassment”. They claim their branding was being used to sell these devices without any evidence. They claim this is a “state-sponsored attack” without any evidence.
While I do find GOS drama a bit annoying, they aren’t wrong about the lacking security of many AOSP forks. iode and /e/OS have a history late patches for security vulnerabilities in both the OS (https://web.archive.org/web/20241231003546/https://divestos.org/pages/patch_history) and for the forked apps they bundle with it. Each Android monthly and Chromium patches usually contains dozens High Risk CVEs, so taking a month or 2 is unacceptable. Neither are good for privacy or security.
See a comparison between some Android ROMs here, especially noting the update speed section: https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm
I understand security implications but I’ll be getting Fairphone 6 with /e/OS over Pixel with GrapheneOS. For me FOSS ranks higher than HW security features, and buying Google device goes against FOSS principles.
Buying a used Pixel lets you use the hardware without funding Google.
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No, there is no modern smartphone like that, yet AFAIK.
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Google itself. GrapheneOS bridgea the gap but still…
Not being familiar with the controveries referenced in this thread…
All of this reminds me very much of OpenBSD and Theo de Radt (?) back in the 98-02 era.
OpenBSD is certainly not the most popular *nix today, but it’s probably the most secure.
Two things can simultaneously be true, Daniel can be an individual who engages in very problematic behaviours and GrapheneOS can still be the most-secure and reliable OS out there.
Basically this. The project head might be a bit too paranoid, bellicose and problematic, but at this time a phone with GrapheneOS seems to be by far the safest way to have a smartphone, and the project head’s personality might be a part on this as their stated objective is to be able to resist state-level actors, you likely need someone who’s more than a bit “out there” to have the right mind for this
Can we get a tldr of the “problematic behaviours”?
As a casual who bought a pixel 9 specifically for Graphene, I not too embedded in the culture/dramas, and surely many others reading here are similarly unfamiliar
His «problematic behaviour» is simply callingäoutäthings for what they are, with no soft wording.
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Exactly. The lead dev can come across as frustrated or confrontational on his social media posts but really the amount of noobs criticising Graphene for nonsense reasons or repeatedly bringing up other ‘secure’ OSes to him that he’s already thoroughly debunked again and again like e/OS would drive me insane
Its nutjobs like them that are pushing progress further. State security apparatus doesn’t want to work by law. That can be observed worldwide.
French went after Telegram even though it doesn’t market itself primarily for security. It was just that some public channels went against their strategic objectives and they felt the need to bruteforce their way.
So GrapheneOS is very right to be nervous and pack their bags before they come knocking at the door.
They literally said that French police are being told to treat Pixel phones as suspicious, which if true, shows why they’re concerned.
Having a secure phone / secure messaging has been seen as suspicious by the police in france for several years now.
This has already been used against eco activists to detain them preemptively and a few times to increase charges towards terrorism / organized crime when possible.
They’re being threatened by the entire French government. Its not drama. This is a very real situation.
All secured OSes and messaging systems are threatened by European governments / EU institutions at the moment, and the French government has been doing so for a few years.
This is not a grapheneOS only issue and it is not new.
I’ve accepted for a while that the lead developer is extremely paranoid and could probably genuinely do with healthcare intervention. Like in much open source development I think it isn’t helped by overwork and burnout, so I hope that at some point Graphene gets a better governance structure which spreads responsibility and which hopefully will limit the incessant drama that only harms the project. I don’t see him being willing to give up his grip, but I can always hope.
I’ll continue to use Graphene unless things go entirely off the rails though, as it is a great OS and I don’t really think there are many great alternatives.
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Thanks for pointing that out, looks like I’m a bit behind the times when it comes to the inner goings on at GOS!
Such drama has been going on for years. I wouldn’t read too much into it.
I wouldn’t trust a sane person to do a ultra private phone OS.
You need the paranoia, you need to see the shadows move to do it right.
It mainly makes me pine for linux phones. I think Graphene is the best we have at the moment in the mobile space, but that’s far more of a testament to our lack of options than how valuable Graphene is. I have no doubts that we’ll eventually kick Graphene to the curb when it stops being useful, so I’m not overly concerned with its future. Worst-case, I think many of us would be just fine on any other AOSP rom for a few extra years until linux phones can come save us all.
pine for linux phones
I see what you did there.
I could be wrong, but I think Linux would be horrible for the kind of security you’d want in a smartphone. At least that’s what I read from the GrapheneOS folks…
Depends on what your threat model is. Sure a fully locked down mobile OS is more secure, but I also care about freedom and privacy. It’s not all black and white.
As far as I’m aware this is true (same with a lot of desktop linux distros), but I’m more interested in freeing myself from Android at the moment. I’m sure we can get there eventually w/r/t security, but it takes time, and we’ll never get there if we don’t start moving.
GrapheneOS has always had a massive PR problem and crazy leadership unfortunately.
Who benefits?
Who benefits from sowing a narrative around “drama”, “accusation”, and/or “paranoia”. Seriously.
I think given the following circumspect; GrapheneOS’s reaction, to move project pieces out of potential hostile environments/jurisdiction, is perfectly reasonable.
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France’s Support for EU “Chat Control”, scanning proposals. France has been one of the governments most supportive of EU‑level proposals that would require scanning of communications and devices for illegal content.
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The general French framing and approach to cybercrime. As in other EU countries, French authorities are pushing for: Expanded powers to compel cooperation from service providers, and developers. Strong rhetoric against tools that are seen as systematically obstructing investigations.
The main GrapheneOS dev creates beef with a bunch of other projects. It’s not some shadowy organisation, it’s him having stupid takes in GitHub issues and spreading false claims about other projects.
Man, I am so totally with you, but the problem - and it’s ridiculous to say it’s not a problem - is the guy running GrapheneOS is apparently a socially backward drama whore. Louis Rossman is an amazing advocate, I don’t even pay that much attention to shit and I know him as one of my favorite people on YouTube because of his advocacy for right to repair. And this guy just pisses all over his face for the most minor perceived infraction. I have no problem imagining that something like GrapheneOS would face intense harassment from the state, but when you act like this dude does you completely lose all credibility. Everybody is just left wondering if maybe, just maybe, this is just your weird ass making shit up.
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Unless there’s drama in my updates I don’t particularly care too much about drama.
The drama can be so minor too
“How can he run our department when his favorite color is INDIGO!? I can’t BELIEVE that guy!”
I also feel concerned about GrapheneOS. Here’s why.
I got banned from the GrapheneOS Matrix chat simply for asking a question, it was worded similar to this:
“Hey there! GrapheneOS is cool. I noticed CalyxOS added support for eSIM, are you planning to add that as well?”
The post got deleted, I thought I had not sent it and posted it again. It was deleted again. I asked something along the lines of “Wait, where has my question regading eSIM support and doing the same as CalyxOS gone? Seems to have disappeared, lol”.
THAT was also deleted.
Then I posted something along the lines of “Huh, my questions seem to be disappearing”.
That was NOT deleted.
Then I asked something like “Anyway, are there plans to add eSIM support just like CalyxOS? :)”.
That was ALSO deleted.
I got a private message from a mod saying I was banned.
That was alle the interaction I ever had with the GrapheneOS project. I might have started contributing, but I could not even ask a simple question. It seems that they don’t like it if you mention any other custom ROM, I guess.
(This has been a while ago, so I don’t remember my precise wording)
It seems you were rightfully banned.
Which channel on Matrix ? They seems to have many ones so mods in general if questions get asked in wrong channels ban which is weird I would expect them to reply that go to #relevant room and ask there
I’m pretty sure it was a general GrapheneOS room, but as said it’s been a while, so idk.
At least asking the question did not seem wrong.
In my opinion both the evident ego of of the project lead as well as his naivety (tethering the project to Google) are huge red flags despite any assumed technical superiority.
They’re literally working with a manufacturer to make non-google phones. Tethered to google is a wild mischaracterization.
No it’s not. This is a recent development that has not yet actually come to fruition. It may exist in 2026.
Before that GrapheneOS dismissed any idea of targeting other phones than the ones build by one of the most anti-privacy companies on earth, that seeks to consolidate control of Android.
This isn’t true, they’ve supported other devices in the past. They’ve been Pixel-focused for the security features that other manufacturers haven’t offered
Yes, before Google made phone on it’s own they supported some Nexus devices (google-partnered) and the Samsung Galaxy S4.
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I don’t need a phone, GrapheneOS needs one now that Google is trying to force them out. I wonder if their new phone will actually meet all the requirements, if it comes out.
As for complaining, GrapheneOS is the one bitching about other Android versions existing since forever. Now, they 've started making unsubstantiated claims of them attacking them somehow.
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No GrapheneOS is not just calling them out on lack of security.
It’s apparently from their discord, so it took me a while to find it again.
It’s not about the personality of it’s directors, it’s about it’s effect on the (alternative) Android ecosystem as a whole, which is not just about security but also privacy and user control.
Even with regards to security, their choice of limiting devices apparently makes their users targets for extra scrutiny and harassment. That does have actual implications for people whose threat model includes authorities unless they already are guaranteed to be targets.
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They chose Google because they are the only major OEM to allow you to relock the bootloader after installing a custom ROM. Samsung, Motarola, Huawei, Xiaomi etc all don’t.
In addition to this, they are working with an OEM to produce their own Graphene phones. It sounds like they’ve made significant progress on that front so I’m hopeful.
Pretty sure calyx relocks the bootloader on moto phones.
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