China is an oligarchy, my man. They’re better than the west for now, but the same kind of greedy bastards run their country as do the rest of ours.
Regardless of that, though, they are still operating in the “country with the most doubly so” world. So they have the incentive to fuck over other countries to enrich themselves/ promote their ideologies.
As I suspected, this is just anarcho-cynicism: human nature is evil, power is evil, there is zero difference between any nations, everything is the same, nothing matters, etc etc.
Human nature isn’t evil, it’s dumb. We can only focus on what’s in front of us because we’re inherently biased towards the self. That’s the source of billionaires, wealth inequality, and the Iron Law of Oligarchy. Humans are very much capable of overcoming this issue, but to do so we have to acknowledge that it is an issue. Putting your fingers in your ears and saying “my team knows the way” isn’t going to help anyone. Especially when it’s obvious that your team does NOT have a handle on these issues either.
I disagree that there is such thing as evil. It’s a distancing tactic for people to give space between the horrors they know humanity can do and what they believe that they’re capable of. It’s just a knock-on from tribalism and othering.
Pretending that my argument is about what you want to talk about instead of what I’m actually saying is cowardice. Like I said, China is next up which is why I’m using them as the example. But since you’re going to sit on an irrelevant thing in an attempt to make me appear like I can’t come up with an example, here are the concerning things about China right now.
They have massive income inequality. Second most billionaires of any country in the world.
They favor creating national cohesion by reducing differences between populations in their country, rather than creating a unifying national identity aimed towards some goal.
They create treaties with poorer countries that boil down to “we’ll develop the infrastructure to extract this resource in exchange for getting the extracted resource”, which is eerily close to early colonization tactics.
They have imperial ambitions on sovereign (or formerly sovereign) territories that they consider to belong to them (Tibet, Taiwan, Hong Kong)
I don’t think these are unique to China or even particularly egregious, but they are signs that if China gets on top they’re going to do what every other country does when they get on top. Use it to benefit their citizens at the cost of everyone else.
You mean to say imperial ambitions, not empirical ambitions.
E: also you’re not using that word right.
If you’re open to taking some criticism, it seems like you have a media based understanding of the world. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, we all internalize stuff from media, but you’re talking to people who tend to have an understanding that’s rooted in study as opposed to media and who have a communist perspective that reenforces their understanding because communists love writing books about stuff almost as much as they love reading books about stuff.
Once you get hit with the ol’ tankie wall of links, consider clicking on some of them. It’s easy to see someone posting a mess of links in response to you as an argumentation strategy, but it’s actually an education strategy.
Once you get hit with the ol’ tankie wall of links, consider clicking on some of them. It’s easy to see someone posting a mess of links in response to you as an argumentation strategy, but it’s actually an education strategy.
As someone guilty of this, I actually disagree. The wall of links is more for argumentation, as you want as much supporting evidence as possible. For education, the person you’re talking to has to want to learn, in which case fewer, specific links tends to be remarkably more effective.
Now, there’s always hope that onlookers will see and click the many links, especially ones they are curious about. However, when there are many in a comment, the hope generally is in persuading the audience to agree with me, which then turns to them either checking the links directly (always fantastic) or deliberately trying to educate themselves.
Marxist pedagogy is an understudied area I’m trying to work on improving in my own life.
Yeah, thanks for the advice. I can tell that they’re trying to flood me with information in order to get me to shut up, so I can’t make myself read those links. I’ve tried a couple of times, but even with material I’m extremely open to… non-fiction is a no-go for my narrative keyed brain. The ADHD is strong with me.
I really should’ve shut the hell up once I realized I put my foot in my mouth earlier. Sorry, and thanks for the grace
Evil, stupid, whatever. You’re fundamentally misanthropic, and I have no interest in that shit.
As a Marxist I get to have revolutionary optimism. I can believe humans are better than this, and even though the hitherto history of the world is the history of class struggle, we can get past this dark age through scientific socialism.
You, meanwhile, are convinced that nothing is going to change when the US empire is inevitably defeated. I feel bad for you.
Nah man. I got that same revolutionary optimism. I’m just having a real hard time connecting my thoughts to words today. It’s pissing me off, too, which is making it even harder for me to make clear what I’m trying to say.
I know humans are better than this, and I also know that requires us to acknowledge what our gaps are so we can address them. Just don’t have the words today, just all the wrong ones. Sorry man. Cheers
No, China is a socialist country. The working classes are the ones that control the state, and as a consequence policy is directed towards their interests. Capitalists exist in a cage, used primarily for the beneficial socializing aspect markets have with respect to disconnected, smaller and competitive industries.
Secondly, I have no idea what you mean by “country with the most doubly so” bit. China isn’t dominated by finance capital and does not have the economic forces compelling imperialism that the west has. Imperialism isn’t just something people do, it’s economically compelled.
China has the second most billionaires in the world, man. They can call themselves whatever they want, economic inequality like that is a clear sign of oligarchy. Or do you have some other explanation on how someone can “earn” thousands of times more than others in a supposedly fair system? If the workers own their excess, why do you still have hoarders? How do you still have hoarders?
China has the second most billionaires in the world
How about you look at it by rate as opposed to using raw numbers when comparing a country of 1.4 Billion to much smaller countries (you might then come to realize by rate China is down near India while being far more developed).
economic inequality like that is a clear sign of oligarchy
No its not. Its a symptom of a private sector (and thus some private property) continuing to exist.
If the workers own their excess, why do you still have hoarders? How do you still have hoarders?
Because the trade off was refusing to make use of market relations and remain spreading equal poverty under the Gang of Four.
I was right you really have no idea what you’re talking about.
China has capitalists, yes. This does not mean they control the economy. As I already said, capitalists exist in a cage, used primarily for the beneficial socializing aspect markets have with respect to disconnected, smaller and competitive industries. To dogmatically collectivize even highly underdeveloped industry is a misstep, which was committed by the Gang of Four.
Socialist countries like the USSR and DPRK that have more tightly controlled economies are typically this way due to encirclement and needing to defend themselves, not because this is the most sensible course for development from a Marxist perspective. Even in the USSR, Stalin had the artels, which were essentially worker cooperatives, well after the end of the NEP.
Trying to centrally plan a bunch of small businesses would be a nightmare, but it’s much easier to plan large industry. That’s why the basis of communism is large industry, and why one of the most critical tasks of any socialist country is to develop the productive forces in the best way possible. China allows limited private property for the progressive role it plays in comparison to small businesses and other petty production.
How familiar are you with Marxism? China’s economy makes perfect sense when viewed from a Marxist angle, and they are Marxist-Leninists.
Stop playing us vs them. Jumping in at the end of a conversation to declare yourself the victor on behalf of people you agree with is mastubatory at best.
I put my foot in my mouth and kept putting it back there. Doesn’t make you look better to point out how dumb I look. Trust, I know how badly I fumbled, my man.
but the same kind of greedy bastards run their country as do the rest of ours.
Western liberals can no longer defend their world order as not being evil, so they’ve fallen back to the next excuse: “everyone else is just as bad as us”. It’s just the narcissists prayer.
China is an oligarchy, my man. They’re better than the west for now, but the same kind of greedy bastards run their country as do the rest of ours.
Regardless of that, though, they are still operating in the “country with the most doubly so” world. So they have the incentive to fuck over other countries to enrich themselves/ promote their ideologies.
But like. What have they actually done that is so scary?
They are not white, reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaally scary!!!
Please don’t strawman. Thanks
Strawman of what? The blanks you left others to fill in for you?
Removed by mod
So you don’t have an example.
As I suspected, this is just anarcho-cynicism: human nature is evil, power is evil, there is zero difference between any nations, everything is the same, nothing matters, etc etc.
Human nature isn’t evil, it’s dumb. We can only focus on what’s in front of us because we’re inherently biased towards the self. That’s the source of billionaires, wealth inequality, and the Iron Law of Oligarchy. Humans are very much capable of overcoming this issue, but to do so we have to acknowledge that it is an issue. Putting your fingers in your ears and saying “my team knows the way” isn’t going to help anyone. Especially when it’s obvious that your team does NOT have a handle on these issues either.
I disagree that there is such thing as evil. It’s a distancing tactic for people to give space between the horrors they know humanity can do and what they believe that they’re capable of. It’s just a knock-on from tribalism and othering.
Pretending that my argument is about what you want to talk about instead of what I’m actually saying is cowardice. Like I said, China is next up which is why I’m using them as the example. But since you’re going to sit on an irrelevant thing in an attempt to make me appear like I can’t come up with an example, here are the concerning things about China right now.
They have massive income inequality. Second most billionaires of any country in the world.
They favor creating national cohesion by reducing differences between populations in their country, rather than creating a unifying national identity aimed towards some goal.
They create treaties with poorer countries that boil down to “we’ll develop the infrastructure to extract this resource in exchange for getting the extracted resource”, which is eerily close to early colonization tactics.
They have imperial ambitions on sovereign (or formerly sovereign) territories that they consider to belong to them (Tibet, Taiwan, Hong Kong)
I don’t think these are unique to China or even particularly egregious, but they are signs that if China gets on top they’re going to do what every other country does when they get on top. Use it to benefit their citizens at the cost of everyone else.
You mean to say imperial ambitions, not empirical ambitions.
E: also you’re not using that word right.
If you’re open to taking some criticism, it seems like you have a media based understanding of the world. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, we all internalize stuff from media, but you’re talking to people who tend to have an understanding that’s rooted in study as opposed to media and who have a communist perspective that reenforces their understanding because communists love writing books about stuff almost as much as they love reading books about stuff.
Once you get hit with the ol’ tankie wall of links, consider clicking on some of them. It’s easy to see someone posting a mess of links in response to you as an argumentation strategy, but it’s actually an education strategy.
As someone guilty of this, I actually disagree. The wall of links is more for argumentation, as you want as much supporting evidence as possible. For education, the person you’re talking to has to want to learn, in which case fewer, specific links tends to be remarkably more effective.
Now, there’s always hope that onlookers will see and click the many links, especially ones they are curious about. However, when there are many in a comment, the hope generally is in persuading the audience to agree with me, which then turns to them either checking the links directly (always fantastic) or deliberately trying to educate themselves.
Marxist pedagogy is an understudied area I’m trying to work on improving in my own life.
😏
It’s okay that I called all people dumb because I didn’t call them evil.
Evil is immoral
Dumb is just a limitation of your meat suit
They’re not equivalent, like not even in the same category, let alone the same level.
Yeah, thanks for the advice. I can tell that they’re trying to flood me with information in order to get me to shut up, so I can’t make myself read those links. I’ve tried a couple of times, but even with material I’m extremely open to… non-fiction is a no-go for my narrative keyed brain. The ADHD is strong with me.
I really should’ve shut the hell up once I realized I put my foot in my mouth earlier. Sorry, and thanks for the grace
It’s okay. You did good.
“I can’t be bothered to engage with my opponents arguments, so I’m just going to assume they’re bad faith”
Evil, stupid, whatever. You’re fundamentally misanthropic, and I have no interest in that shit.
As a Marxist I get to have revolutionary optimism. I can believe humans are better than this, and even though the hitherto history of the world is the history of class struggle, we can get past this dark age through scientific socialism.
You, meanwhile, are convinced that nothing is going to change when the US empire is inevitably defeated. I feel bad for you.
Nah man. I got that same revolutionary optimism. I’m just having a real hard time connecting my thoughts to words today. It’s pissing me off, too, which is making it even harder for me to make clear what I’m trying to say.
I know humans are better than this, and I also know that requires us to acknowledge what our gaps are so we can address them. Just don’t have the words today, just all the wrong ones. Sorry man. Cheers
You very blatantly don’t.
Fucking incredible. This is a parody of western liberal
Wrong. Here’s some sources:
Is China State Capitalist?
No, China is a socialist country. The working classes are the ones that control the state, and as a consequence policy is directed towards their interests. Capitalists exist in a cage, used primarily for the beneficial socializing aspect markets have with respect to disconnected, smaller and competitive industries.
Secondly, I have no idea what you mean by “country with the most doubly so” bit. China isn’t dominated by finance capital and does not have the economic forces compelling imperialism that the west has. Imperialism isn’t just something people do, it’s economically compelled.
China has the second most billionaires in the world, man. They can call themselves whatever they want, economic inequality like that is a clear sign of oligarchy. Or do you have some other explanation on how someone can “earn” thousands of times more than others in a supposedly fair system? If the workers own their excess, why do you still have hoarders? How do you still have hoarders?
How about you look at it by rate as opposed to using raw numbers when comparing a country of 1.4 Billion to much smaller countries (you might then come to realize by rate China is down near India while being far more developed).
No its not. Its a symptom of a private sector (and thus some private property) continuing to exist.
Because the trade off was refusing to make use of market relations and remain spreading equal poverty under the Gang of Four.
I was right you really have no idea what you’re talking about.
China has capitalists, yes. This does not mean they control the economy. As I already said, capitalists exist in a cage, used primarily for the beneficial socializing aspect markets have with respect to disconnected, smaller and competitive industries. To dogmatically collectivize even highly underdeveloped industry is a misstep, which was committed by the Gang of Four.
Socialist countries like the USSR and DPRK that have more tightly controlled economies are typically this way due to encirclement and needing to defend themselves, not because this is the most sensible course for development from a Marxist perspective. Even in the USSR, Stalin had the artels, which were essentially worker cooperatives, well after the end of the NEP.
Trying to centrally plan a bunch of small businesses would be a nightmare, but it’s much easier to plan large industry. That’s why the basis of communism is large industry, and why one of the most critical tasks of any socialist country is to develop the productive forces in the best way possible. China allows limited private property for the progressive role it plays in comparison to small businesses and other petty production.
How familiar are you with Marxism? China’s economy makes perfect sense when viewed from a Marxist angle, and they are Marxist-Leninists.
Lol, it’s so cute when you guys play world-weary badass with zero knowledge of the world to even be weary of.
Stop playing us vs them. Jumping in at the end of a conversation to declare yourself the victor on behalf of people you agree with is mastubatory at best.
I put my foot in my mouth and kept putting it back there. Doesn’t make you look better to point out how dumb I look. Trust, I know how badly I fumbled, my man.
Hey you know what , then I gotta give you credit. I’m used to people who double, triple, quadruple down
Really showing you have exactly 0 (or in fact possibly a negative) understanding of China, and the Chinese state.
Western liberals can no longer defend their world order as not being evil, so they’ve fallen back to the next excuse: “everyone else is just as bad as us”. It’s just the narcissists prayer.