More dataisdepressing than dataisbeautiful
So probably -
When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression
Men want the days back when they were more in charge and didn’t have to worry about consequences so much.
The opposite to conservative is progressive, not liberal
Yes. Liberal is the opposite of “moralist” and sometimes “oppressive”.
The US use of the word “liberal” is a bit shifted in the direction of “libertine” (same as libertarian, but strongly focused on personal freedoms of substance abuse and sexual promiscuity at the expense of economical\political freedoms to own catgirl slaves and shoot up crowds).
Especially in Europe where liberal is more typically used for economically liberal.
Which tend to be conservative socially.
The opposite is Socialism, not progressivism.
Okay boomer
Not a boomer, I’m a Communist.
Wrong
In what way? Conservativism is a branch of Liberalism, just like Progressivism. They are all under the Capitalist umbrella of Liberalism. The opposite, therefore, is Socialism.
Congratulations, you have successfully redefined imprtant words in a way that makes your understanding of them fundamentally incomoatible with other people’s, rendering clear communication impossible.
I don’t know why this was your goal, but I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming it was intentional, because the only alternative is that you are less intelligent than a particularly dense house plant.
Never redefined any of it. Liberalism is the ideology supporting Capitalism, Progressivism is the left side of liberalism and conservativism is the right side. Progressives still support Capitalism, same with conservatives.
I mean it isn’t. Progressivism only seems to exist as a word in America, because the USA has the red scares, and conflates communism and socialism, and so are scared of the phrase and had to reinvent their own.
In Europe, you have Conservatives (right wing market, socially conservative), Liberals (free market, but with positivity towards social reforms). Socialism or Democratic Socialism (positive social reforms, state involvement, but with democracy). Communism (economic distribution but more autocratic), and Social Democratic (somewhere between Liberal and Democratic Socialist). Socialism is where you’re willing to consider the state getting involved in wealth redistribution.
It’s better you understand political philosophy and how it is used and applies around the world to truly understand it. You cannot understand the spectrum, if you cannot zoom out from the Overton window.
That’s not what Socialism and Communism are, though. Democratic Socialism itself is a nebulous and meaningless term.
Listen, I too can write several paragraphs painting the consequences of redefining the relevant key words in hand. I will be careful to avoid providing substance of the topic in hand while attempting to make you feel guilty and of poor character.
Do not misunderstand anything I say because I will try to make sure you think that your work actually harms people because your education and intelligence are insufficient and even subversive. If you do not, you will see that everyone else will be buying a nice lollipop for the event and add to the consequential sugar.
This explains why they are fat and sitting at a computer in their parent’s basement. You won’t be able stop it because no matter what you do, there are so many that the truth is inevitable for everyone involved; whether they bother to acknowledge such or not.
What on Earth are you talking about?
Not sure I fully agree with your take, but that’s beside the point. They said “wrong”, now that settles it. Sorry, maybe next argument 🤷♂️
How does it start with women being more conservative than men in Germany and the US?
Being less educated and living the traditional life of sitting at home and doing house work.
Easy.
It’s like a trick. Priest are basically just pimps. You kids…well, yeah…you either get it or you just won’t believe anyone but the pimp’s word.
There is a kind of shorter-term marriage in Shia Islam which sometimes may approach prostitution in practice.
But generally no. A traditional European marriage is not a worker servicing a client.
Not talking about the adults here.
My guess is from a rise in hatred of homosexual men during the aids epidemic in the 80s maybe?
That’s why there are so many incels conservatives and more lesbians, the numbers talks from themselves.
Sounds like the women did better advance planning if they’re still getting laid.
The important thing here is to know how did they measure young people’s political ideologies. I wouldn’t expect it was self-perceived as currently, people has a hard time admitting they are conservative compared to admitting they sympathize with a conservative party.
If it was determined by a questionnaire, it would be interesting to see what questions were included. Maybe the questions weren’t well planned and that’s it. Maybe they equalled feminist takes to
progressiveliberal ones, which is something that can be discussed. In this case, I would be picky about the origin of the graphics.If the importance of women’s issues like reproductive freedom were overrepresented relative to other issues, this would definitely account for at least part of this difference. But “importance” itself is already a very subjective concept. It’s hard to put numbers on these things and create a scoring system that’s actually useful.
The gap sounds plausible, but I highly doubt the overall positions relative to 0.
E.g., the Federal Republic of Germany has had conservative chancellors for 51 years out of the 75 since it was founded. We did not have a constant left majority (I assume that is what they mean by liberal, since the actual sense of the term doesn’t make sense as an opposite to “conservative”).
These graphs only cover the demographic of 18-29 year olds, which historically do lean heavily towards progressive.
The difference by sex is the really interesting feature.
This is only a relative argument if you can prove the government accurately and granularly represents the population. That would be nice if it were true but speaking as an American, I find it hard to believe.
It’s weird that the axes of where “centre” is remain stable over time. Can you imagine comparing “left vs right” between the 1890s and the 1920s? Like a bunch of stuff happened in between, history happened, and that tends to redefine left, right and centre.
Great observation! This is called the Overton Window
Difficult to assess this info without knowing how the data was created.
Also hard to believe the American average is +20 leaning lib. The country is represented by a fascist party and a centrist party, and anything more left than the centrist party is considered “far left”.
The Y axis here is not an absolute international political compass. It measures which political party each person favors, and judging by that country’s local standards categorizes that party as either left or right.
A rising number in the US chart means a larger number of people prefer democrats over republicans. It doesn’t mean that people’s stances are necessarily moving further left. Similarly, it’s no coincidence that the inflection point where UK numbers rise by a lot correspond to Brexit: the party seen as responsible for the unpopular change lost a lot of support, but that doesn’t mean the population has so sharply moved drastically more progressive in such a short time.
The graph is about young people, not the entire population. Young people in America are historically more progressive than older people.
Also why does liberal and conservative have to be on an absolute scale? The words liberal and conservative seem to me at least be about pushing politics in one direction or another. Because policy is always subject to change, shouldn’t the words liberal and conservative be relative to the political system they exist within?
And, I did miss that important detail.
It doesn’t have to be an absolute scale of course, but then why show 4 countries where all seem to deviate from the center? Are these country graphs even comparable?
Yeah I agree, it’s not a very good graph. I just get frustrated when people ridicule the US political system for everything. We have a lot to fix (like what’s causing women to become more liberal), but I think we need to focus on what’s actionable and reasonable to fix. We can’t become +20 more liberal overnight.
Anyone wanna take bets that the datatrend will change once we have fully functional Gynoids?
We won’t. The desire is to be connected to a real living woman. Toys can’t get sophisticated enough to make you believe what you prematurely know to not be true.
I sometimes think they turn conservative because women won’t date them.
I’m pretty sure women don’t want to date people who have any sort of disposition that leans towards hating them or believing that women are lesser than men.
Unfortunately, a lot of men learned that way of thinking early in life(from family and/or media) and it ruins any attempt at a relationship, then they blame women and run to the very people who set them up to fail for validation, or find new ones like that sex trafficker with the pizza boxes, or that canadian psychologist who sugar coats sexism online. Repeat ad nauseum.
In the age of social media I imagine people are actually a lot more antisocial than we used to be…. And if young men and young women are all online more now and actually go out to interact in person less than we used to, this would make it a lot more difficult for young men to interact with the young women long enough to ask them out….
Is this… tilted slightly?
Am I leaning?
left-leaning, maybe
Mine curves to the left
Sauce, for those interested - https://www.ft.com/content/29fd9b5c-2f35-41bf-9d4c-994db4e12998
In the US, Gallup data shows that after decades where the sexes were each spread roughly equally across liberal and conservative world views, women aged 18 to 30 are now 30 percentage points more liberal than their male contemporaries. That gap took just six years to open up.
So it might be worth taking it with a pinch of salt because I’m betting it’s using the very dumbed down “liberal vs conservative” 'murican political view. Maybe skew all results down 3-6 points.
Interestingly it looks like in 3 of 4 charts men have, at worst, returned to mean. It’s the women getting more leftist. And I don’t blame them.
Well, honestly what political positions women have means less in “interesting times” like ours.
They are not strongly pressured by conservative men of their family and surroundings (if they have such), because tribal parts of politics rely a lot on crowd instincts, and those of women don’t work exactly the same. They do participate in politics, but with the different kind of emotion.
For men a woman holding different views is usually not an existential enemy. They might ridicule that or dislike, that may look disgusting, but it’s a different kind of attitude. It’s pretty normal for women from families from authoritarian elites to have publicly liberal views. The dictator daddy won’t punish his daughter for reposting something virtue-signalling against what he’s doing. He knows it’s of no consequence.
At the same time women, of course, see the tendencies around us and their views change accordingly.
But again, in the “interesting times” what men do may matter just a bit more, because there are power dynamics involved where women are disadvantaged due to both different tribal instincts and to men being more represented among people with power. In some sense political views are a kind of compensation.
So it’s both bigger incentives for such views (with actual incels loudly talking) and less pressure (that’s spent on threatening violence against male opponents).
I’m not an incel. Just thinking.
Liberalism isn’t the same as Left. It’s not even in the same political axis.
You can’t really read “more liberal” as being the same as “more leftist”.
Left would be something like: “I want the greatest good for the greatest number”.
Liberalism would be something like: “I want people to have the most freedom to do whatever they want”.
You might notice that these two things collide in things like the existence of the super-rich, were for a liberal that’s a good thing (they have maximum freedom) whilst for a Leftie it’s a bad thing (wealth concentration reduces the access to resources for the many hence it directly goes against the greatest good for the greatest number).
Similarly centralizing control of part or the whole of the Economy (which decreases trade freedom) to achieve greater equality is absolutelly valid within the Leftwing principles and entirely against Liberal principles.
it’s only in places like the US, were the entirety of Leftwing is about 4 congressmen, that Liberalism gets confused with Leftwing.
I wonder why Dessalines is posting this sort of stupid charts
A few folks have mentioned that these charts
- conflate liberal/conservative with the dominant left/right parties in these nations
- does not include people who do not identify with one of those dominant parties
- have some somewhat unreliable stats magic behind them
A lot of young men in the US are reporting themselves as “not a Democrat or Republican”, and that’s causing a lot of this proportional shift. I would bet that characterizes a lot of folks on this site who are not conservative.
https://www.vox.com/politics/2024/3/13/24098780/politics-gender-divide-generation-z-youth-men-women
https://www.allendowney.com/blog/2024/01/28/is-the-ideology-gap-growing/
Exactly. I would be almost as upset with being classified as a liberal or a Democrat as I would be a conservative.
At the same time I know many people (my brother included) that claim to be “independent” because they think that the trump camp is somehow outside the conservative camp, and therefore respond “independent” on polls. Because they think “I’m not democrat or conservative, I just want to drain the swamp” and then support trump, who is literally a swamp.
When I think of all the women & girls in my life that I care about, I remember that I could never be a conservative. It would be a betrayal.
Assuming this is accurate, I’m pleased to see men in the UK bucking the trend.
This is out of date.
People are losing faith rapidly in the left because they don’t seem to be for the everyday working class Briton like they used to be.
There is a big shift going to Reform now largely because they want to reduce immigration. The left deny the situation and the right have claimed they will reduce it every year then increase.
People are flooding to the “far right”* because they don’t seen the main parties address the main issue they want addressing and have been talking about for decades at this point, generations even.
_* not actually far right. But the left love throwing that term around to anyone that has a different opinion to them. They just want lower immigration, which historically has been a left leaning ideology
This is young people, not red-faced beast men fighting outside the kebab shop with pool cues.
Do you know something about the UK I don’t?
Please tell me about how the Tories link into this graph?
