As a European, this is very true. Anti-romani sentiment is very widespread and often overlooked when talking about xenophobia.
Another European, I encounter very little anti Romani sentiments in my daily life. There are travelers here and there are prejudices, but active hate is much more directed at refugees.
Generally their music is doing a lot of heavy lifting for the general opinion.
Generally their music is doing a lot of heavy lifting for the general opinion.
imagine saying that right after claiming there is little anti-romani racism
“I’m not racist, it’s just that their culture is garbage and everyone hates them”
Not OP but Gypsy music is generally considered positively not negatively I thought - I’m not sure why there is an assumption they’re saying their culture is garbage - I read it as the reverse
That’s what I meant
I don’t have an answer but, it’s not uncommon for a minority group’s music to be cherished and even coopted by the same people who hold racist sentiments toward them. It can be a bridge toward racial harmony too, no doubt. But as an American hearing someone say they like a minority group’s music and then nothing beyond that does feel sus and I’m sure the Europeans can guess why!
I feel like you might be reading “and then nothing beyond that”. I’m English, and I love to talk to other people about their cultures and backgrounds (and will happily talk to them about English folk customs and the differences between different British regions in return), but I find that, as a general rule, the only parts of someone else’s culture that they can easily share with you are food and music.
“but i like the caricature of the dancing g****, they seem so happy and carefree”
Hearing that “I am not racist…” opener is usually a signal that someone is about to share some absolutely unhinged point of view.
They didn’t say there is very little anti-romani racism, they said they didn’t encounter it in their daily life very often. That’s generally how it works, you don’t tend to run into racism as often when you’re not the target.
Quite right. I don’t run into a lot of anti-aboriginal racism in Australia, but boy howdy does it exist.
And I do run into some. Had an operation at a hospital once and shared a room post-op with a guy who was a cheery companion for a little while then started spewing the most ridiculous shit about First Nations people I’d heard outside a One Nation forum.
I then calmly asked him to explain every point and dissected his bullshit like a faeces expert studying a coprolite. Really bothered him. Hehehe.
Imagine the day Lemmy will be able to read a sentence correctly and not immediately rush to bad faith interpretations. Frankly this post made me lose hope to ever have an interesting discussion here.
There wouldn’t need to be a lifting of general opinion if there wasn’t a widespread negative opinion. Of a race. You know, like racism.
Ya dunce.
Learn to read before commenting. You’re just validating my take.
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???
I didn’t mean it that way. There’s a couple of famous musicians who really make the general consensus about travelers mainly positive.
Furthermore like I said there’s more many people that have verbalized something anti-zigian in my presence, and I’ve been here a while.
Yeah, because being upset that someone is blasting music until 4AM EVERY DAY is racist.
Sometimes I wonder how much hate is prevented or deferred by America’s identity as an immigrant nation and pride in that fact, compared to other western places like Europe.
We do still have “Illegals are coming to take your job” economic anxiety propaganda on the right.
Urban areas where people of different backgrounds live and work together tend to be less racist, rural homogeneous areas tend to be more so.
Idk, it more or less disappeared around here once they started allowing their children to go to school and get jobs once they grow up.
Turns out people care more about crime than skin color most of the time. I literally couldn’t tell you if there are any Romani living near me anymore because nobody has placed a curse on me after demanding money for a fortune telling I didn’t ask for and I haven’t heard of massive theft sprees in over a decade.
Integration is usually a two-way street. They wouldn’t have cooperated if the local authorities wouldn’t have done their best to earn their trust, considering all the shit that kept happening in some countries until the 90s and early 00s. So whatever your country is, they probably had some better ideas than e.g. Slovakia .
This is gonna cause some grump.
Both the EU and America have a race problem but I dunno from my perspective racism in Europe is so much more common and unchallenged. I think a lot of people have an inflated view of American racism cause they talk so often about it. I also don’t think the racism is the same, a lot of Europeans seem more racist about cultural differences than just skin color where Americans seem more skin deep racists.
I dunno just my opinion though.
I also think these parts of the world are the most culturally diverse so they talk about it but other parts of the world are SOOOO much more racist it isn’t even a comparison.
You’re not wrong. Americans have an obsession with skin colour and thinks that is what divides humanity. I remember a screenshot post of a black user asking, and to paraphrase: “remove poc’s what how would white people divide themselves?” The user is likely someone from North America and had never gone to Europe, or know its history, to see how divided Europeans are, even before the large immigration from outside the continent.
The western world by far contains the least racist cultures on the planet. At least presently. It’s just more visible especially to people in the western world
Americans tend to sensationalize anything so if someone says “I don’t like music about drug dealing and shooting people,” there is a good chunk of folks who would immediately say (unironically) that said person is racist against black people.
A friend of mine in South America was talking about it the other day. She was saying that while racism does exist where she lives, it’s treated and received with significantly less violence. She heard about racial tensions in America, and the crimes committed, and she was shocked. To her knowledge, that had never happened where she lives.
I don’t know enough about her local history to make any kind of argument, so I just let it go. But it did seem strange to me.
I read that as South Africa and I was like WTF
I’m American, but my grandma was a 1st generation immigrant. She always threatened to “sell [me] to the gypsies” if I didn’t behave. I didn’t have any idea what a “gypsy” was! There was no context for a 4 year old in the States. Hell, I didn’t even know it was a slur until I was in my twenties. That was pretty gross, Gram. Boomers gonna Boom, though, I guess.
I was 30 years old before I learned that word’s a slur
Same for me, but Germany. I thought, “Zigeuner” (Gypsy) meant that someone had no address because they would live in trailers and would move from place to place. Which sounded very cool and I wished, I could do that, too.
I did not understand, however, why one should not trust them.
Turns out, it’s just racism.
I encountered Romani a few times when I was living in Germany. It was not a positive impression. But even then I was well aware of how being historically marginalized breeds poverty and crime.
So ya don’t like dags?
I don’t know what that is, but it sounds like a slur. I don’t have any problem with Romani, only individuals who engage in antisocial behavior, same as anyone else.
Oh, dogs! Sure, I like dogs!
‘sounds like a slur’
this used to be called a colloquialism or abbreviation for the sake of brevity back in the day.
Putting aside the fact that they’re not the same thing, how is “colloquialism” or “abbreviation” more brief than “slur”?
It’s not necessarily a slur, depending on who you are using it to refer to. There are some communities who refer to themselves that way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy,_Roma_and_Traveller
Every reddit euro sub in a nutshell
Some screenshots of (auto-translated) Reddit comments from r/Slovakia. I don’t know if usernames and profile pictures would count as doxing, so I removed them.
Holy shit. Positive karma and everything.
Must be nice to be Slovakian, I got banned from Reddit for hating on Joe Biden. I thought he was senile.
Meanwhile, he was senile
But so is Trump, but the media was afraid to call that out, since they didn’t want to lose interview opportunities with him.
But imagine the potential in “Dementia Don” and caricatures of him asking ChatGPT to generate him a clock during a dementia test.
Yes. But I didn’t get banned for saying Trump is deranged, that is allowed. However, only one opinion was approved by Reddit mods. Because they’re stupid.
Yeah, that sums it up pretty well. Though, tbf in some european subs the comments would be like 90% “deleted comment”.
Literally happened yesterday to me…
I remember my grandfather in the 90s warning me not to go to close to the “wagon” (a trailer) of “the gypsies” because they “steal children”. I actually wound up over there when I adventured out alone from the camping place. The woman was cutting her husband’s hair and it was the first time I had seen a man with pretty, long, shiny black hair, I was fascinated. They were friendly but “talked weird” (they had an accent). I never understood the hate… because obviously, they didn’t steal me away… but my grandfathers generation left that narrative behind for my parents and my generation to pick up and continue. I whish it could have died with him.
I can’t speak to Europe, but contrasting the milquetoast euphemism “American racial tensions” against a picture of Hitler seems to be going really easy on the United States.
The point is to whitewash America’s racism, it’s okay because the Europeans also are a bit racist. Don’t try to compare how similar or different it is, that would destroy their take.
Idk, ask a European about Muslims and all of a sudden I’m talking to my grandparents.
Ask an American about Obama and see how welcoming of Muslims they are. (Yes Obama is not Muslim, that’s the point)
Hashtagnotalleuropeans
Read the Koran, trust
or, listen to some Imams from today. Pick any Islamic State Imam and listen to them. It won’t take long
(they even speak English you can find their mosque videos on Youtube, pick one)
“A bit” is an understatement. Europe is just as bad.
Yes and? That’s missing the point and falling directly into what the OP wants
Can’t let OP get away with pointing out racism
Let’s imagine, purely hypothetically, that there’s a minority that has big issues integrating into host society and that some aspects of their culture are not compatible with laws and local way of living.
Is it possible to talk about it in a non-racist way? If yes, how should it be done? Or are we simply required to pretend the issue doesn’t exist?
Again, purely hypothetically.
“…there is living amongst us a non-German, foreign race, unwilling and unable to sacrifice its racial characteristics, to deny its feeling, thinking and striving, and which none the less possesses all the political rights that we ourselves have.”
It’s an odd hypothetical which posits the existence of a group that took the same role that the Jews did for Hitler - unable to assimilate because of cultural incompatibility, lack of loyalty to their nation-state, and this being true as a result of a self-isolation of the members of that community.
Or perhaps its a cheap shot to appeal to literal Nazis. How about the contemporary far-right?
“The Islamic culture is inferior to our Western culture… Mass immigration from Islamic countries means more crime, more terror, more anti-Semitism, and less freedom and democracy. Integration is impossible because Islam is not just a religion, but a totalitarian political ideology.”
It’s almost as if framing the problem as “the minority has big issues integrating” is in itself a kind of dogwhistle, a poisoning the well toward a racist explanation and therefore racist solution.
Ok, I will take that as a “no”. In your opinion there’s no way to talk about cultural differences that’s not literally fascism. Thanks.
What are these “cultural differences” that you can’t have a conversation about? Would you care to give us some of your opinions?
Swiss people being way more strict about quiet-hours laws than most other countries. Some people think it’s important to respect that and any immigrants should adapt to those laws, even if in their home countries they are not obeyed as strictly. Good thing I know it’s fascism now.
There’s nothing wrong with having quiet-hours laws and enforcing them. The problem is when the criticism is framed in terms of groups by ethnic or national identity. Either the violations should be enforced, as with any other rule/law, or perhaps there could be some kind of policy change. All of that is worth talking about. My objection is to the idea that its appropriate to frame the problem in essentializing and racialized language. Suppose I have a dispute with my Jewish neighbor. He loves to grill his kosher meat every Saturday with his family. I don’t like the smell. Here is one way to frame this dispute: “My neighbor has a custom of grilling meat on Saturdays, but I don’t like it because the smell wafts into my house and I’m vegan.” Here is another “My JEW neighbor grills his JEW meat every Saturday because Jewish culture is just murderous and doesn’t care about animals like I and my culture do. He is such a piece of shit asshole, just like all of THOSE people.”
Which one sounds like a fair way to frame a discussion about a conflict between two people? Now obviously your initial comment didn’t say anything overtly racist like in my example, which is very extreme. But you framed it as a conflict between some anomalous THEM and the ‘local’ culture, a.k.a., US. The problem is subtler, but its the same problem.
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Haha my comment got removed by /u/cannedtuna@lemmy.world because apparently noticing that different countries have different customs regarding quiet-hours is racist 😂 Looks like someone never traveled to Spain.
Censorship on lemmy is reaching new levels.
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Always little hitlers in the comments. Say “romani” and watch you appear like roaches
Yea sure I’m the roach, not the guy in prison with a kid that has an alcohol addiction at age 12
As if every restaurant server in America who’s had to deal with white European tourists trying their damndest to get around our alcohol laws so their kids can have beer or wine with dinner are lying.
OP’s meme is absolutely true. This is an American boomer grandparent rant about black people with a single word substitution.
It’s almost as if framing the problem as “the minority has big issues integrating” is in itself a kind of dogwhistle, a poisoning the well toward a racist explanation and therefore racist solution.
So you confirm there is no place for debate because some people cry racism before even seeing any argument. The propaganda post working its wonders here: any criticism makes you a Nazi.
When someone’s using a Nazi strategy to talk about a Nazi talking point, it’s kinda hard not to notice a pattern and point it out.
Why are you mad people are pointing out that phrasing is making it harder to talk about racism? Do you not like it when people talk about racism or say things are racist? Why is that?
Why are you mad people are pointing out that phrasing is making it harder to talk about racism?
I specifically asked what phrasing would be ok and the other guy started quoting Hitler at me. I really don’t know how you can still claim there’s a room for debate and people just notice patterns. Everyone is just trying to outleft everyone else. “You can’t say that cultural differences are preventing social integration, that’s racist!”, “OMG, you said ‘social integration’, that’s racist!”. It’s hilarious to watch.
Except that they didn’t say anything racist and just wanted to start a discussion. If you cannot see the difference between an honest debate and literal genocide, maybe you need glasses?
The Godwin point being a meme doesn’t mean drifting immediately to Nazism is a valid way of debating.You have a real hard time with reading comprehension don’t you
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What makes you think that people should integrate into your society instead of the other way around? What makes you think geographical areas must determine cultural norms?
These are rhetorical questions, I don’t want a response. I want you to think about how racist you’re being.
We can take an example. Female genital mutilation. Why do I think muslim west Africans moving to my country should stop female genital mutilation in my country instead of my culture starting practicing female genital mutilation? That’s quite clear. I think it’s an immoral practice. Doesn’t matter which culture is doing it. Not every cultural difference is a neutral thing. My culture for sure also has negative traits in it. I would also condemn child marriage, purity culture, strict family patriarchy, and clan honor culture. If someone is from a culture that sees gay people as an abomination to god I would condemn that as well.
Did you just wanna talk about genital mutilation? Nobody brought that up.
I think it’s a good example because I believe the entirety of Lemmy can agree that that specific cultural tradition is a bad one, thus proving that not every cultural difference is good. No amount of historical context can justify it.
So by that logic, Mexico City locals have no right to expect anyone to adapt to them? Plenty of people there are annoyed at foreigners who move in, never bother learning Spanish, and act like the neighborhood should work around them. Most people would call that a fair complaint. And before you say it’s just about money, picture a broke backpacker doing the exact same thing. Same complaint, right?
If that’s fair, then expecting newcomers to adapt isn’t racist in itself. The real debate is about what’s reasonable to expect, not whether it’s allowed.These are rhetorical questions, I don’t want a response. I want you to think about how consistent you’re being.
Lmao yes exactly, you know the Spanish stole mexico city right? But we should stop anyone from speaking other languages there, sure. No fucks given for the indigenous cultures that persist to this day
Fucking racist morons, the lot of you
Yeah, that extremist position is not even worth addressing. According to it recognizing any cultural differences is racist in itself. Japanese person telling to you take off your shoes? Racist. Swiss neighbor telling you to turn down your TV after 22:00? Racist.
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Have you tried addressing the issues without generalising their entire culture based on the behaviour of one single group or ignoring the entire history that might explain how it came to this? The social workers certainly seem to manage to do just that.
Have you tried
I haven’t tried anything yet, I’m just asking.
addressing the issues without generalising their entire culture based on the behaviour of one single group
I don’t understand this part. Let’s say I’m (hypothetically) talking about difference in how they dress and that the minority simply dresses differently. Is saying “people from culture X traditionally wear Y” OK? Of course not every single person from culture X will wear Y but there are cultures that traditionally dress differently, right? Is that generalization or description of a culture?
ignoring the entire history that might explain how it came to this
So if someone provides historical context for behavior they are criticizing it’s not racist? Not sure if that’s enough. What if someone says “minority X was marginalized by the government for so long they are uneducated and more likely to commit crimes now”. Would that be OK?
I haven’t tried anything yet, I’m just asking.
Sure you are.
I don’t understand this part. Let’s say I’m (hypothetically) talking about difference in how they dress and that the minority simply dresses differently. Is saying “people from culture X traditionally wear Y” OK? Of course not every single person from culture X will wear Y but there are cultures that traditionally dress differently, right? Is that generalization or description of a culture?
Saying “people traditionally wear x” is a whole lot different than saying “they’re all criminals”. You’re conflating a cultural practice with a claim about criminal behaviour. Seems like a very dishonest argument, tbh.
So if someone provides historical context for behavior they are criticizing it’s not racist? Not sure if that’s enough. What if someone says “minority X was marginalized by the government for so long they are uneducated and more likely to commit crimes now”. Would that be OK?
You’re missing the point. There are a lot of contextual things that need to be considered, historical context is one of them. Socioeconomic is a different one, which might be based on historical context. It doesn’t mean you have to provide that every time you address some issue.
It doesn’t even matter which group it is, because having to live with marginalisation, exclusion, poverty, lack of access to education or other socioeconomic conditions are associated with a greater exposure to conditions associated with crime. That’s not unique to a particular group. You’ll see that in a lot of minorities who get treated like second-class humans.
In case of the Romani, there are still people around who remember the mistreatment they received from the respective governments. For example, Slovakia forcibly sterilised Romani women well into the 90s, with some cases being documented even until the 2000s. That memory is still alive, and can explain why some Roma distrust government agencies. If i come to your house and kill your dog, you wouldn’t want me around either…
Yes, there are practices among some Roma communities that are harmful, but those are also challenged by Roma themselves. There are Romani organisations out there who fight for change in those communities. Those actually do ask the question why these practices occur, how widespread they actually are and what can be reasonably done to reduce that from happening. That’s a whole lot more useful than some performative bullshit talk about “their culture”.
So, TL;DR would be “treat the reason for the issue, not the ethnicity of the people having it”.
EDIT: And it seems some people do not understand nuance, and keep on dogwhistling
Yes, there are practices among some Roma communities that are harmful, but those are also challenged by Roma themselves. There are Romani organisations out there who fight for change in those communities. Those actually do ask the question why these practices occur, how widespread they actually are and what can be reasonably done to reduce that from happening. That’s a whole lot more useful than some performative bullshit talk about “their culture”.
Why so aggressive? Why do you assume that I wanted to say anything else than “there are practices among some Roma communities that are harmful”?
Look at other comments. Many people here think that expecting Roma communities to change their behavior is racist in itself. Why would you assume everyone is to the right of you when you’re clearly to the right of many people on lemmy?
Yes, there are practices among some Roma communities that are harmful, but those are also challenged by Roma themselves. There are Romani organisations out there who fight for change in those communities. Those actually do ask the question why these practices occur, how widespread they actually are and what can be reasonably done to reduce that from happening
So you basically admit that there are problematic behavior in some Romani groups, and that’s (one of) the reason for the integration difficulty. So much so that Romani people themselves are trying to change it.
Contrary to most comments here crying racism, you won’t find many commenters here saying it’s the Romani ethnicity that’s the issue, it’s the behavior that has gotten them a bad reputation.Yes, it’s fanny how people just use codewords and claim that everyone speaking normally is straight out racist.
“No, Roma culture is not preventing social integration, that’s racist thing to say! Some… practices among… some Roma… communities are… harmful. (ufff, racism avoided)”
You came up with some vague “hypotheticals”, kept throwing more “hypothetical claims” around and now you pretend like you “won” some discussion by treating my explanation as a concession. That is exactly the kind of dishonest argumentative pattern i’m talking about.
Here’s some dude who shared some of the usual comments that come up in many European reddit subs, once the word “roma” is mentioned: https://piefed.social/post/2439917#comment_13134574
Maybe that’ll help you to understand why your “hypothetical” nonsense sounds like a bunch of dogwhistles.
Yes, me asking generally about language used when discussing social integration is the issue, not you imagining what people are really trying to say. And of course other people saying racist stuff means that everyone is racist. I take personal responsibility for all racist comments on reddit, no issues on my side here.
Yeah, I might start my exploring why the laws of the place developed in a way that was strictly incompatible with the culture of groups of people who live there, and why the laws perhaps cannot be adapted to bend to the needs of people instead of the other way around.
Oh, so you think it was wrong for Spain to raise minimum age to get married to 16 years? They should have left it at 14? Even though Committee on the Rights of the Child recommended raising it? Is UN racist now? They should lower the age again so people from some minority groups can get back to marrying their kids at 14?
You’re right, it’s very curious why the laws in Europe developed in a way that don’t let kids to get married. Why can’t they bend those rules? Is it because of racism?
The question is making category. You think that they is one people and another, one legit and one not. This is a not facts, this a nationalist point of view. So yes, it is racist.
People that decide collectively the way they are living is democracy. One way of living that has to be enforce to everyone is supremacism. Is fun that you think that way about the romani, because those culture presence is way older in their territories that every States in Europe. So if you think that the first have the right to decide, European States Shall adapt to Romani People.
PS: it’s not a coincidence that nazi was antisemitic and antitziganist. Those cultures presence demonstrate that the nationality is social construct, and not a “biological truth”.
ITT: americans circlejerking and thinking europe is a country and that the gypsy situation in for example portugal is the same as in bulgaria
We could extend it to Europeans talking about Africans, “Muslims” or anyone else. The picture would still be valid.
…okay, and how does that apply to the topic and the comment section about gypsies?
Their hatred for others extends far beyond just gypsies. It’s about how Europeans are a lot more bigoted than they’re given credit for.
ITT: reinforcing my point
Murikan talking about their country
Damn, can’t take a joke?
European countries aren’t all the same
When it comes to general opinions of Romani/gypsies I think all European countries are pretty united.
Netherlands may be an outlier but nobody cares about Roma/Sinti/travellers/gypsies. Here people are racist against Maroccans, Turks and Muslims generally
I think Europe is at least united in a hatred for Muslims, can’t just let people exist in peace, y’know?
cmon man, compare the percentage of gipsies in holland and romania/slovakia/hungary
That’s actually not really helping your argument, if you compare it to the statistics of anti-immigrant sentiments vs actual percentage of immigrants. In most cases, the areas with the lowest amount of immigrants have the highest amount of anti-immigrant sentiments. For example in Germany, you can literally see it on the east-west divide on the map (as with many things). I wouldn’t be surprised if it were similar in the Netherlands, that rural areas are more prone to anti-immigrant stances.
The issues in the countries you’ve mentioned, are usually based on historical and socioeconomic issues, that came up over time. And some countries didn’t exactly do well to get Roma people to trust them, like e.g. Slovakia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V._C._vs._Slovakia
And that is besides the fact that it’s hard to get hard numbers on Roma people, since there are also those who try to hide their origins . You could have a Roma person in your neighbourhood and not even realize.
not sure how did you wash your immigrant bs into this. these folk were here in the last 500 years. they dont count as immigrants anymore. mid and eastern eu failed to integrate, cause there are too many of them (to be honest neither of the parties tried). that is it.
U.S. states aren’t all the same either
That’s why I said it
As an American of non-European descent living in the Netherlands, I’m amused at the blank stares I receive when I ask people about where they think the xenophobic, self-serving, and bigoted attitudes that pervade “White America” came from.
Ireland?
those dammed Irish
Americans really mad about euro calling them out huh.
All you need to know about European racism is that Prince Andrew is the second least popular Royal ahead of the black lady.
Source ?
Europeans love how fascist the US is right now, makes their professional fascism much more palletable.
This was certainly true 20 years ago
They were going door to door in northern Ireland looking for brown people just a few months ago.
Pretty much all of European progressive tolerance went in the trash can after the Syrian refugee crisis.
I’m an immigrant to Europe and when the Syrian refugee crisis happened 10 years ago, I knew it will cause tensions.
I think people are generally tolerant of foreigners but something unconscious in the mind of many people is triggered and think “okay too many”.
But at the same time, something that the anti-immigration and the far right never addressed is that the world, not just Europe, is experiencing population decline. Counries simply need more people to work. The far-right blame the foreigners but never have any plans afterwards to address the population decline. Or rather, now that I think about it, they won’t say it until foreigners are gone, but they want to force back women to baby churning roles. I remember arguing with a crypto-fascist who is anti-globalist and he doesn’t have answers to the declining workforce apart from implying to force women to make more babies. It is though as if the low birth rate isn’t to do with the economic system not being family friendly. Have we heard the far-right say they will increase the wages? No. It’s because, ultimately, the far-right are corporatists and their goal is to not empower workers.
Oh, they absolutely say that thing about women. It just gets overheard over all their anti-immigrant screeching.
