More than 100 Arizona Palestinian, Arab, Muslim, and progressive Democrats and community leaders have signed a letter making the case for those reluctant to support Kamala Harris against Donald Trump.

“We know that many in our communities are resistant to vote for Kamala Harris because of the Biden administration’s complicity in the genocide,” the letter, published Thursday night, reads.

“Some of us have lost many family members in Gaza and Lebanon. We respect those who feel they simply can’t vote for a member of the administration that sent the bombs that may have killed their loved ones,” the letter continued. “As we consider the full situation carefully, however, we conclude that voting for Kamala Harris is the best option for the Palestinian cause and all of our communities.”

  • @atk007@lemmy.world
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    2825 days ago

    Brutal. You have to support the one who kills half of your children because the other one will kill all of them.

        • @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          625 days ago

          no, I’d ‘go after’ them. not vote, not support, actively fight against. as i am doing now.

          you: ‘Excuse me dear these two murders are running for office, I have to let one of them murder our children’ jfc you poor soul.

            • @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              25 days ago

              yawn tired trope. there are other levers to pull for reducing essentially every other harm. its clear you dont understand how to effectively leverage your vote to reduce harm and are supportive of a genocide. congrats i guess?

              Let me know when you’re no longer a willing participant in a genocide and then we can talk about harm reduction.

              • @auzy@lemmy.world
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                525 days ago

                You need to look at game theory.

                The only two candidates that matter if Harris and Trump, and you’ll realize that the only candidate that makes sense to vote for is Harris

                • @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  23 days ago

                  oh god another game theory twat. lord please spare me another childish lecture. 😮‍💨

                  1. you’re assuming my goal is influence who wins. (its not)
                  2. you’re assuming the only outcome in play is who wins. (its not)
                  3. yes I’ve studied game theory and that professor was a dunce too.

                  You don’t even know the game. Which you may wish to know is an important aspect of game theory. so spare me the trivialities of your intellect.

              • I’m as much a willing participant in the genocide as anyone else who intends to vote, unfortunately in the USA right now we are the way we are.

                I can vote for the party that has people willing to address the elephant in the room, literally anything else is being a more willing participant.

                Anyways, get fucked.

                • @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  223 days ago

                  Anyways, get fucked

                  Daily. 🤗 Dont worry harris will still win here. But maybe adding my vote to the pile here has convinced my local reps to consider withholding israel support in the future . Hopefully you can do the same.

                  But its likely you’re Happy harris is bombing innocents.

          • @PapaStevesy@lemmy.world
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            25 days ago

            You: “I don’t like these two candidates so I’m going to do everything I can to ensure the worst one wins!”

            • @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              I’m going to ensure people know they are other options than voting for genocide. if harris loses to fucking trump as a result, that’s her fault not mine. learn to place blame were it properly belongs: On the person committed to a genocide. I didnt force her down this path. I didnt force you down this path. You and her choose it willingly.

              Let me know when you’re willing to stop supporting a genocide and then we can talk.

              • @PapaStevesy@lemmy.world
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                25 days ago

                I’m going to ensure people know they are other options

                I haven’t heard of any viable option, so you’ve failed. The only way to accomplish what you want to accomplish, what we all want to accomplish, is to elect enough local politicians that support massive electoral overhaul to disrupt the two party system. FPtP and winner-take-all must go, but we’re never gonna get there by throwing our votes away to unviable third parties. In the meantime, we do the best with what we have and we let logic rule our decisions, not emotion. Try it!

                • @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  123 days ago

                  Viable isnt the goal. The goal is to withholding support for genocidal candidate keep up.

                  You can absolutely do that by supporting 3rd party candidates.

                  1. If you live in a 💜 state lie to your candidates and exit polls, say you do not support harris support instead and cite genocide for the reason. But shes likely your best bet so no hurt feelings either way you vote. But remember its Harris’ responsibility to earn your vote through policies and positions. She doesnt have many this year besides not being a fascist and that sadly probably enough in those states honestly. To the Arab community her treatment of your community has been horrible and disgusting and I’m sorry I’ll continue fighting for your family as i can.
                  2. If you live in a 💙 state, and most of us do, there are 16, consider with holding your vote for harris. Let your critters know what you’re doing and why.
                  3. If you live in a💩state im sorry 😔. I have no advice for you except be as active as you can local elections.
  • @ArugulaZ@lemmy.zip
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    3126 days ago

    Tankies: “B-but now we can’t swing the election to Trump with our constant whining and unrealistic demands!”

    • @madcaesar@lemmy.world
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      1925 days ago

      Trump will cause millions to die in the middle East and in Ukraine. Being pro peace and pro Trump is impossible. These people are either massive, massive morons or saboteurs.

      • @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        425 days ago

        Indeed he will, and so will harris. Biden has slow walked support for Ukraine as well.

        I’m sorry Kamala has decided to be a shitty human (its hardly just gaza that has caused my vote to be casted for a 3rd party). But thats the way the cookie crumbled. I can do more to protect people on these shores via other means of direct action. Kamala changing positions on gaza is all i can do for my Palestinian brothers and sisters.

        • @PapaStevesy@lemmy.world
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          1125 days ago

          Your third party vote causes waaaay more damage to “people on these shores” (and on all other “shores”) than any possible direct action could mitigate. Any legal action, anyway.

    • @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      If you think changing a position on genocide is unreasonable, you are the problem. No one is saying dont protect israel, no one is saying they cant defend themselves. Neither situation applies atm. Israel is the aggressor at this point.

      Have you ever noticed how everyone goes on and on about the right to defend themselves and then conveniently ignoring that as soon as the threat is neutralized self defense no longer applies?

      Israel is the antagonist at this point. They dont have to keep invading new regions. They’ve managed to kill more hostages than they’ve rescued.

      They keep killing journalist, doctors, nurses, etc from international organizations.

      If you think telling kamala and the Democrats to stop supporting this is unreasonable: You. Are. The. Problem.

    • @sandbox@lemmy.world
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      525 days ago

      Refusing to support genocide is an unrealistic demand, and it also makes you a tankie, despite the fact that tankies are known for refusing to acknowledge historical genocides.

      • @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        325 days ago

        😂 imagine thinking not supporting a genocide is an unreasonable demand. Say the quiet part out loud. Phew.

        Seek help child. You certainly need it.

        • @sandbox@lemmy.world
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          225 days ago

          I think you misunderstood my point. I am absolutely opposed to genocide and all those who support it.

  • @Freefall@lemmy.world
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    3526 days ago

    I wish these .ml clowns would hold their impotent revolution stirring for ONE critical election. Once trump is gone and MAGA gets told they are unacceptable by a massive blue tsunami, then trump is completely into dementia before he gets another chance to lose, then you can go be a hero and fight against our interests at home in favor of…still doing genocide…or whatever ignorant magical change you think is going to happen instead.

    • Semi-Hemi-Lemmygod
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      1926 days ago

      If they’re having their revolution by voting in an election they need to brush up on what a revolution is.

      • @oo1@lemmings.world
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        826 days ago

        yes, this is what makes you suspect they are bot/trolls.

        If they know they need a revolution, then actually revolt - with fucking petardes and guillotines; that type of shit. If they’re not ready to do that, they may as well kick trump in the balls first whilst they muster the wherewithal.

        "Voting thrd party because voting is broken?! " wtf?

    • @sandbox@lemmy.world
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      725 days ago

      “Guys, I get it, the Holocaust is bad, but if we vote for Himmler, he will stop it. Hitler will do the holocaust but even more bad!”

      • @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        25 days ago

        Edit: sandbox this not directed at you. Just clarifying.

        Last I checked no one has suggested supporting trump instead. Seek help you’ve been seeing things that are not real.

        To everyone else show up, vote with your heart. I live in a safe state, i still voted down ballot for the majority of my reps. If you’re in a similar situation please consider doing the same and contacting your reps and letting them know why. Dont let Kamala and the dnc force you into supporting a genocide its not worth it.

        If you’re in a swing state do what you need to do to protect your local community in whatever way you can. Yes, including supporting harris if thats what it’ll take, despite shitty of a candidate she is1. I promise you people like myself are not upset with people supporting kamala. I have no interest in shaming you for voting.

        But if you think trying to stop a genocide is unreasonable, well… You’re the problem, and i will happily call you out for your disgusting bullshit.

        1 Kamala has remained uncommited to labor. (No policies for pto,sick leave, healthcare reform, workers rights.

        Kamala has remained uncommited to keeping khan the best head of the FTC we’ve seen in my life. See related mentions about labor they’re coupled.

        Kamala has done more to harm the muslim community than just supporting a genocide shes actively suppressed them in our own country, if she’s willing to throw one minority group under the bus shes willing to throw others.

    • @Tinidril@midwest.social
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      926 days ago

      It’s depressing as fuck that so many Democrats put this all down as a Trump problem and think his demise will make the slightest bit of difference.

      As long as we have Democrats like Kamala, we will have Republicans like Trump. This didn’t start with Trump, and it won’t end with Trump.

      Now go ahead and down vote my post and forget I ever said it so we can be right back here in another 4 years.

    • @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      525 days ago

      Why when i can do it now? The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The 2nd best time is now.

      If kamala loses thats her fault. Not mine. She could have demonstrated support for Palestinians she has decided to snub a minority group at literally every turn.

      No one is asking kamala to commit to a course she has no control over. Whether we sell arms to Israel is squarely in the presidents hands. We have laws in the books that cover this exact situation. Kamala needs to ‘follow the law’ as she is often quoted saying.

      Now i suggest you go get checked for mental health issues as you clearly think committing a genocide is perfectly acceptable and that people voting against it are the problem. No one has forced Kamala into this position but herself. No one has forced you into your insanity except yourself.

  • @MellowYellow13@lemmy.world
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    26 days ago

    Disgusting. Make a case against the fucking genocide then to get more votes.

    This is terrible. We need better candidates.

    • @assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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      1726 days ago

      The only thing disgusting here is that you assume you’ve got a moral high ground and superiority over these Arab, Muslim, and Palestinian community leaders. I trust their opinion.

      I’m tired of champagne socialists pretending to be all for progressive causes and then they act like they know better than us brown people and are our wiser saviors. As a brown person, that makes you no better than a Republican in my eyes. Stop using us as a cudgel and patronizing us instead of listening to us. Strip away your imperialist mindset and listen to AAPI people to try and win for once.

  • If I were an American, I’d probably vote Harris if and only if I live in a swing state or a state where the margins between votes aren’t too high. In any state where the outcome seems set in stone, I’d vote a third party candidate (probably Jill Stein). They won’t get elected, but if there’s a noticeable increase in the number of votes for them, it might make democrats nervous that their political orientation choices aren’t viable. I’d also start campaigning for the third party the day after the election, regardless of the outcome.

    • @TBi@lemmy.world
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      26 days ago

      That’s exactly what all the people who didn’t bother voting in the Brexit referendum thought. “The outcome is set in stone, no need to vote”.

      Don’t waste your vote!

    • @sem@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      1426 days ago

      This might make sense in the primary, but not in the general election. The more the popular vote skews toward Harris, the more indefensible Donald will seem when he tries to claim it was stolen.

      Also fwiw I wouldn’t feel comfortable voting Jill Stein, there’s a lot of podcasts I’ve heard saying she’s basically a grifter at this point.

    • @nepenthes@lemmy.world
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      1026 days ago

      The woman who had no issue lunching with Putin in 2015 after Russia annexed Crimea in 2014? The woman whose current position is for not providing Ukraine with monetary/military assistance?

      That’s not a good record on genocide.

      • That’s the thing, if the democrat’s only rivals are on their right, the only voters they need to court are the moderate right wing, they have no incentive to make any concession to the left, which they can take for granted.

  • @UsernameHere@lemmy.world
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    23327 days ago

    It is important to note that foreign nations like Iran, Russia and China are using this topic to convince voters to allow facism to win the election in the US. This doesn’t mean that Israel shouldn’t be held accountable for their actions. But history shows how foreign actors use these topics to manipulate us.

    • @Aqarius@lemmy.world
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      826 days ago

      I have to say, “The evil foreigners are to blame for us becoming fascist” is an onion-level take.

      • @thebestaquaman@lemmy.world
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        726 days ago

        I mean, it’s no secret that a bunch of countries are running massive disinformation campaigns in order to divide the populations of western countries. Attempting to destabilise another country by propping up certain political factions is a tactic that has been employed across the world for at least the past century (see: Lenin, and how he got in power).

        Of course, we are responsible for ensuring that we do not become fascist states, but acting like theres no outside influence propping up the fascists is naive at best.

        • @Aqarius@lemmy.world
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          326 days ago

          Yes, but the point stands: Lenin wasn’t grown in a vat in Berlin, he was only ever in Vienna because being in St. Petersburg would get him arrested. There are American political factions favored by certain foreign nations, but they are, at the end of the day, American political factions. And I frankly find it deeply depressing hilarious that the current state of the discourse seems to agree that foreigners are destroying the country, but can’t agree over which foreigners exactly. Talk about Overton loopholes.

      • pachrist
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        226 days ago

        So many options for the title:

        Jiminy Cricket is a Putin plant.

        America’s Collective Conscience: Misguided or Manchurian Candidate?

        Ask not what your country can do for genocide, ask what genocide can do for your country.

    • @Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      6727 days ago

      I think it is important to note that a surprisingly large number of voters say they like fascism without any need to rationalise that as foreign meddling. Being told that you are good because you are ingroup and they are bad because they are outgroup is an enduringly popular message with a large minority of people.

    • Cethin
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      2727 days ago

      Yeah, it sucks but everyone just needs to hold their nose and do what will have the best outcome. Sadly, if Trump is elected, this will probably not be an issue in the future. Yeah, Harris needs to do more and the democrats need to be pressured into doing what’s right, but the only way that matters is if they’re in power. If Republicans have control, nothing you say regarding Palestine will matter.

      • @Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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        326 days ago

        Yeah, it sucks but everyone just needs to hold their nose and do what will have the best outcome.

        southpark_cableguys.jpg

      • @Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        1227 days ago

        If Republicans have control, nothing you say regarding Palestine will matter.

        I sadly suspect that political orthodoxy will continue, and that orthodoxy is “it’s okay for the IDF to kill innocent people”.

        • Cethin
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          1227 days ago

          For sure, in the near future. Hopefully we can improve on that, but we have to have Palestinians alive to improve on it.

            • @jumjummy@lemmy.world
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              326 days ago

              You do it by overwhelmingly knocking out the GOP so that there’s room within the blue wave for more progressive candidates.

              If, somehow, the Democrats swept with some insane margins, the GOP in its current form would need to evolve or die.

              When a race is this close, the Democrats will always move to the center.

              • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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                426 days ago

                You do it by overwhelmingly knocking out the GOP so that there’s room within the blue wave for more progressive candidates.

                That’s not how it works. Dems treat their “left” flank as a group to be disciplined, not accommodated. And giving them the greenlight on genocide confirms a move right, not making space for the left.

                Dems got their “wave” under Biden. They have moved right and their “progressives” have been cowed.

                But genocide should be something you consider a red line regardless of the illogic sold to you by the party.

                If, somehow, the Democrats swept with some insane margins, the GOP in its current form would need to evolve or die.

                The same applies to Democrats who are committing a genocide, don’t you think?

                When a race is this close, the Democrats will always move to the center.

                The Democrats move to the center because they are gambling that their “concerned” voters will fall in line and because they absolutely do not want to do the things those “concerned” voters want.

                They look at you as someone to be handled by PR, not met with any concessions. And you enable that, including genocide, by voting blue no matter who.

            • Cethin
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              1727 days ago

              There are other means of resistance that don’t give power to those who will do worse. Take direct action and vote for who will reduce harm.

              • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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                1227 days ago

                Do not normalize or support genociders.

                Re: reducing harm, genocide is as harmful as it gets and the candidate you are telkjng people to support is an active part of the ongoing genocide. The idea that you would be reducing harm by advocating for that is absurd.

                You should, of course, engage in meaningful resistance, but those who rationalize voting for genociders are not the people who do that. This is a barrier to action, it is complacency.

                • @svtdragon@lemmy.world
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                  27 days ago

                  The current administration is advocating for a ceasefire while Trump is literally on the other line with Bibi trying to thwart the negotiation. These things are not the same.

                • @zbyte64
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                  727 days ago

                  How did you figure out how to not pay taxes?

      • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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        1127 days ago

        You should not normalize genocide by voting for any genocider candidate, nor publicly rationalizing doing so.

          • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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            426 days ago

            The solution requires commitment to building power, i.e. leverage and numbers, gaining a political education, and engaging in action.

            What I am suggesting is just the absolute bare minimum, and you all know it: genocide should be a red line and you are complicit if you vote for someone doing a genocide.

            Your vote isn’t strategic, either. You are just demonstrating that you will put up with anything and will be ignorable for the indefinite future for them to do these and greater crimes. And by justifying it to yourself, you will fail to take the necessary steps to, in your words, “solve the problem”.

            • Great intro to philosophy lesson. In the real world, we have the choice between Harris and Trump. You can forget anyone else exists because our election system is broken. If I don’t vote, one of them will still win. Now, without philosophizing, what do we do to stop the violence?

              • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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                326 days ago

                Great intro to philosophy lesson.

                I did not describe anything particularly philosophical.

                In the real world, we have the choice between Harris and Trump

                Oh, so you just mean you are trying to be condescending and pretend I am not being reakistic. Unfortunately for this excuse for why you will vote for someone doing a genocide, I am pragmatic. I criticize your ideas of “strategy”, which are just bog standard lesser evil vote shaming trotted out to discipline Democrats’ empathetic voters every 4 years and suggest you take the first steps towards empowerment by doing the same. My hope would be that them asking you to support genocide would be enough to take that srep., that you could accept that there is not a greater evil than genocide, and that as a good person, you would be an opponent of genocide rather than complicit.

                If you want to talk more specifically on being pragmatic when it cones to political power,I would be happy to do so. It is mostly about building leverage, which is basically the exact opposite of your rhetoric.

                You can forget anyone else exists because our election system is broken.

                The system is working as intended.

                But in your terminology, would you say it is more broken or less broken than when the Whigs dissolved and an abolitionist party took its place over the issue of slavery? In this scenario, you would be someone saying that you must always vote for the pro-slavers.

                If I don’t vote, one of them will still win.

                Yes, that is true. But are you going to orient yourself in opposition to genociders or are you going to decide on which one to support? I think it should be a red line.

                Never again means never again for anyone. What do you think that phrase means?

                Now, without philosophizing, what do we do to stop the violence?

                “The violence” is far too vague for me to give you any real answer. If you mean US support for genocide, then you will need to join groups opposed to the genocide, participate in political education, and build those organizations so that they can make demands and enact material change, such as blockading weapons manufacturers. Or, if you can only understand politics through elections, you can spend your time organizing a principled anti-genocide voting bloc, ideally tied to some material interest. You have no leverage as a voter unless you can credibly threaten to withhold your vote. And your leverage is dramatically decreased when you act as an individual rather than an organized bloc.

                Is that practical enough for you?

              • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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                226 days ago

                It is possible, but it doesn’t happen particularly often. The kind of thinking on display in this thread is defense of a barrier to doing these kinds of actions, from recognizing one’s own lack of political education, from developing a concrete notion of leverage or collective action.

                When people do hold themselves to those standards but still hold out hope for Dems, they learn some uncomfortable lessons. The first one is that Democrats make you their opponent and gladly lie about you and will even throw their money and influence behind Republicans instead. Something else that people learn (at least when they are honest with themselves) is that they often don’t really have a concrete idea of how to make demands or build leverage, and so they will engage in actions and spin their wheels. The ones that are not honest with themselves will still claim a victory. The ones that are honest with themselves will engage in productive criticism and development of their political program.

                But this is so many steps past what the people here are doing, relying on tired canards shared as memes. I would rather they at least get to the “try and fail” step of becoming politically educated and a force for humanity, but we are stuck at the “defend everything Dems tell us to do” phase.

                • @naught101@lemmy.world
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                  326 days ago

                  As someone who is politically active in ways other than voting, I’m calling bullshit. You’re just making assumptions about how other people act, you have no evidence.

          • @Freefall@lemmy.world
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            326 days ago

            They solution is to I’ve the country to trump and not have elections anymore. They are not too bright.

          • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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            727 days ago

            I would like you and others to stop normalizing the genocide of Palestine. If you stop announcing your unconditional support for the people genociding Palestine to any degree then it has been effective.

            In terms of being more generally politically effective, it is important to take a step away from the dictates of your political class faction. I think that having a simple red line of not supporting genocide should be enough for any moral person to do so.

            • Yes, let’s let a fascist who wants to kill the Palestinians even faster into power. It will be super effective to protest against him when he is using military force to suppress us. It’s not like he hasn’t already used BOTAC to kill leftists during the George Floyd uprisings. Surely all the guardrails will allow us to stop the genocide with him in power!

              “After Trump, Our Turn” comrades! Don’t vote!

              • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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                627 days ago

                Yes, let’s let a fascist who wants to kill the Palestinians even faster into power.

                Israel already has unconditional material support from the Biden-Harris administration on which the genocide is entirely dependent.

                However, you can help prevent the normalization of genocide by saying it is your red line that you will not cross.

                It will be super effective to protest against him when he is using military force to suppress us.

                The Biden-Harris regime recently issued an EO, prompting a corresponding memo from the Pentagon, to authorize domestic military use, including lethal force against citizens in the US. Harris’ running mate mobilized the national guard against George Floyd protesters. Harris is a prosecutor known for harsh and unfair treatment of the accused.

                They are not oppositional forces in this matter.

                It’s not like he hasn’t already used BOTAC to kill leftists during the George Floyd uprisings.

                The people that killed leftists were cops and right wing stochastic terrorists. The cops are funded and defended and overseen and protected by Dems at all levels of government. And it is a rabbit hole, but the fates of Ferguson organizers are something to follow as well.

                Surely all the guardrails will allow us to stop the genocide with him in power!

                There are no guardrails. The question is whether you will take the first step in opposition of genocide by refusing to support it. There is much more work to be done.

                "After Trump, Our Turn” comrades! Don’t vote!

                Please center Palestine in your thoughts.

                • I’m aware of literally everything you are talking about but I have historical context that you apparently lack. Look up what happened to socialists in nazi germany. We need to stop the fascists before they take power or everything gets worse. Things can fucking get worse.

                  My inclination is damage limitation not some bullshit ideal. There are two options on the table, and I voted for Harris because I love my trans brothers and sisters, my many migrant friends, my wife who is a disabled immigrant. I hate Harris and Biden for what they are doing to migrants and Palestinians. Trump would make literally everyone worse off. So I will take my meager power at the ballot box to oppose fascism. Outside of the ballot box I will oppose the democrats for the genocidaires they are.

                • @Chapelgentry@lemmynsfw.com
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                  1727 days ago

                  Is there a single post in your history where you don’t spew absolut bullshit?

                  Every post of yours is unfounded garbage about how Democrats are complicit or working with the GOP to do some nefarious thing.

                  Here’s an unfounded claim for you: you’re full of shit and a foreign agent trying to sway votes for fascism.

        • Cethin
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          2027 days ago

          We should protest and take action, but vote for those who will make things less bad. Our system is fucked, but making yourself effectively invisible doesn’t help. If your vote doesn’t got for one of the two parties you are worth as much as someone who doesn’t exist.

          • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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            327 days ago

            We should protest and take action, but vote for those who will make things less bad.

            The Biden-Harris administration is committing this genocide. “Less bad”, friend, they are doing the worst thing.

            Our system is fucked, but making yourself effectively invisible doesn’t help.

            Given the extent to which Dem voters rely on personal moralism, I think that “don’t vote for genocidera” should be enough. You are complicit if you vote for a person doing genocide.

            But if you prefer to think this is about strategy, what do you think makes your interests more relevant? Being a loudly guaranteed lever pull for the party even when you acknowledge they are doing a genocide, or someone that will, at least some of the time, actually withhold their vote on a stated principal?

            It is actually your logic that leads to irrelevancy. It is logic handed down by party PR ghouls and they repeat it because it works: it means they don’t need to listen to you, they can just convince you to disempower yourself!

            If your vote doesn’t got for one of the two parties you are worth as much as someone who doesn’t exist.

            I disagree, but even if I didn’t, a vote complicit in genocide is worse than not voting at all.

            • I understand your stated idealist position, “I won’t vote for someone engaged in genocide”.

              … but the reality is that Trump win, which is likely without every possible Dem vote, will cause the worst possible genocide.

              So by withholding your vote you’re not complicit in Harris-supported genocide, but you’re complicit in Trump supported genocide, which everyone understands to be worse.

              As I often say in these threads, withholding your vote is precisely what the republicans want you to do.

              Seriously, will your ideals be much comfort when Trump supported Netanyahu is grinding Gaza to dost?

              • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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                226 days ago

                I understand your stated idealist position, “I won’t vote for someone engaged in genocide”.

                I don’t think it’s particularly idealist, though it is formulated to appeal to those with empathy. If they won’t listen to “genocide is a red line”, what do you think they will listen to? A long-winded explanation of political organizing, realignments, game theory, economics? Just saying “don’t support genocide” elicits a flurry of bad-faith insults and absurd lies.

                … but the reality is that Trump win, which is likely without every possible Dem vote, will cause the worst possible genocide.

                There is no bigger gun to threaten people with. There is already genocide with maximalist support from the United States and a deftly subjugated Europe. It even gets support from alleged “good guys” that vote for Democrats. No resistance except from those with personal connections, a stronger connection to empathy, or the politically educated.

                So by withholding your vote you’re not complicit in Harris-supported genocide, but you’re complicit in Trump supported genocide, which everyone understands to be worse.

                That’s funny, I don’t think I told anyone to vote for Trump, either. Instead, I do work against genocide, organizing actions, politically educating those who don’t just sit on their computers and justify supporting genocide to one another.

                As I often say in these threads, withholding your vote is precisely what the republicans want you to do.

                Of course it is, because the GOP and Democrats are competing for votes for an election. Do you believe this to be revelatory?

                Seriously, will your ideals be much comfort when Trump supported Netanyahu is grinding Gaza to dost?

                That is already happening under the Biden-Harris administration that forwarded this genocide for over the last year. Have you not seen the destruction, mass murder, burning of children alive? Do you not know where those weapons come from, how they are donated, what logistical support they receive, how the US attacks all opposition to the genocide?

                • @Freefall@lemmy.world
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                  426 days ago

                  “don’t vote for Harris” means “vote for trump”, so that is what you are saying, with a bunch of other BS tacked on.

              • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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                327 days ago

                Anyone that is not a genocider. Even not voting is better. If you would like to communicate that genocide is unacceptable, then the camdidates with anti-genkxise messages are de la Cruz and Stein.

    • @Cleggory@lemmy.world
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      1327 days ago

      Important to note that fascism and genocide broadly persist under the current Harris co-led administration. Persecution and the marginalization of black Americans persists in the most democrat-controlled cities of America, not just in the Uyghur Autonomous Region.

      Amusing that Americans fear countries that, even combined, are responsible for a fraction of the worldwide political coups and corruption America itself is responsible for.

      America has singlehandedly propped up the Israel military, why pretend it is divorced from moral responsibility in the aftermath of a genocide?

      doesn’t mean that Israel shouldn’t be held accountable

      Why pretend Americans have any moral high ground in geopolitics, especially regarding Israel?

      • @gedaliyah@lemmy.worldM
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        This new tack that Harris is bad for Black people is as transparent as it is far fetched.

        As the California AG, she piloted programs that provided educational resources to both released prisoners, as well as at risk kids beginning in elementary schools.

        Those programs reduced truancy and improved outcomes for at risk individuals and families, who were disproportionately black. They have since become national models of social harm reduction.

        Harris supports legalization of marijuana and releasing non violent drug offenders, again disproportionately benefiting black Americans.

        Edit: Although these statements are all trivial to verify, some people may lack the basic search skills to do so. the following links provide additional information:

        Attorney General Kamala D. Harris Launches Initiative to Reduce Recidivism in California 2013

        Kamala Harris, District Attorney for San Francisco, launched Back on Track 2009

        [The program has] Been adopted by the National District Attorneys Association as a model program.

        Kamala Harris Will Legalize recreational marijuana 2024 official campaign announcement

        • @Cleggory@lemmy.world
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          426 days ago

          Why spout obvious lies when Google exists? There are many examples of Harris fighting to keep now-overturned convincts imprisoned as well, need I go on?

          “Defiance of the federal court order requiring the reduction of the California prisoner population is reminiscent of the Southern governors of the 1950s declaring their defiance of federal court desegregation orders,” Erwin Chemerinsky, dean of UC Berkeley Law School, told NPR at the time. “Both were misguided efforts to undermine enforcement of the Constitution.” Added Barry Krisberg, longtime president of the National Council on Crime and Delinquency, “The legal arguments that the state is putting forward make no sense.”

          https://prospect.org/justice/how-kamala-harris-fought-to-keep-nonviolent-prisoners-locked-up/

      • @Cosmonauticus@lemmy.world
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        1327 days ago

        You’re being downvoted but you’re not wrong. While a Trump presidency has dark implications it happening due to foreign interference would be no different than the coups, assassinations, and implanted dictatorships America has done in other countries for decades. Trumps whole immigrant fear mongering doesn’t happen if the US government had helped the countries they fucked up in Central and South America.

        I think it’s important to remember this

        • @Cleggory@lemmy.world
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          326 days ago

          Is this a reflection of the kind of insults you heard as a child learning to interact with others?

          Go back to your country

          A white supremacist slogan from a supposed anti-fascist?

    • Avid Amoeba
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      27 days ago

      From what I’ve seen over the last year, Iran and China are working against Trump. Russia is working for him and so are some Israeli actors. This is unsurprising as Trump would be worse for Iran and China and better for Russia and Israel. This is not to say there isn’t interference, but that the sides aren’t all pro-fascism. Assuming fascism is ascribed only to Trump.

        • peopleproblems
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          527 days ago

          Iran is more along the lines of “fuck the US. But, fuck, US, fuck it up the right way ok? Butt fuck, the US.”

          More like Iran really wants to progress as a nation technologically without progressing as a nation socially. China and Russia were able to do that, and Iran is being unable to because of the US, but was doing better for a while with the last Iran deal that Trump fucked up.

          Iran is sort of the weirdest place in the world. highly educated folk, restricted access to literature and products, all sorts of restrictions on women. It’s always been very educated, and until the US overthrew the democratically elected government, it was doing quite well in the academic realm.

          The Iranian religious conservatives have such brutal tactics that they effortlessly stifle any social progress. As seen the last dozen times women have attempted it.

          They are also in the weird realm of not being able to accept Kamala as president for ‘moral’ reasons and Trump directly harmed Iran. Which all benefitted China and Russia because guess who supplies that stuff now?

          So, yeah. Iran is complicated

          • Well put!

            There are also a number of conflicting views between Iran’s religious authorities and the civilian government that have caused a lot of these inconsistencies.

        • Avid Amoeba
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          27 days ago

          Really? What’s the Chinese pro Trump angle that I’m not seeing?

            • Avid Amoeba
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              27 days ago

              Weak west also means smaller market for China’s export driven economy. How did the trade war benefit them?

          • @shikitohno@lemm.ee
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            627 days ago

            I can’t remember another recent candidate in the US that not only wasn’t super pro-Taiwan, but said the US should just hang them out to dry if the PRC were to invade the island. They probably like that side of him.

            Plus, an incredibly vain, greedy and self-confident idiot is not the hardest of targets to get to do what you want.

            • Avid Amoeba
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              The Taiwan angle I get. The idiot angle too. However that is complimented by further decreasing Chinese access to the US market.

  • @derf82@lemmy.world
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    16627 days ago

    Do Muslim’s really think voting for Muslim ban guy who would give Israel even more weapons a better choice?

    • @humanspiral@lemmy.ca
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      26 days ago

      A poll released Monday conducted by Arab News/YouGov found that Trump led Harris 45 percent to 43 percent among Arab Americans. Those voters said that they viewed Trump as more supportive of Israel’s current government, but that he was more likely to end the conflict.

      In 2020, FL Hispanics were bombarded with ads saying that Biden would give away Florida to Castro as part of his love for communism or deport them all to Cuba. Trump won FL by a large margin, mostly because Miami area was not as blue as in the past. 60% of FL voters still voted for $15 minimum wage.

      In 2020, also, heavily hispanic southern counties of TX went pro Trump on ads that there would be a lot of work in the counties from building walls.

      AIPAC lobby has spent record amounts on primaries for democrats this year where the incumbent supported a ceasefire. The only ones AIPAC won were ones where they did not mention Israel at all. Other Republican PACs are blanketing Arab zip codes with how pro Israel Harris is, and Jewish zip codes with how she is a muslim plant.

      While Trump very proudly has RFK boast of his desire to end the most stupid war the US has ever conducted, Trump is favoured by Netanyahu, including reported daily strategy calls on how to sabotage Biden’s fake constraints policies. He is more likely to believe any benefits Netanyahu tells him of a full war on Iran/Lebanon/Syria over any prudence.

      Trump’s main claim for 2020 election “rigging” is that a Hunter Biden laptop existed, without anything implicating President on it. But republican rigging of misinformation, and vote suppression, just wasn’t enough even though that nothing story was still all over the news.

      There are serious problems with US electoral system, and it is orders of magnitude worse every cycle.

      • Semi-Hemi-Lemmygod
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        1226 days ago

        In 2020, FL Hispanics were bombarded with ads saying that Biden would give away Florida to Castro as part of his love for communism or deport them all to Cuba. Trump won FL by a large margin, mostly because Miami area was not as blue as in the past. 60% of FL voters still voted for $15 minimum wage.

        JFC people are fucking stupid

      • Carighan Maconar
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        625 days ago

        Biden would give away Florida to Castro as part of his love for communism

        I love how utterly deranged republican shit is in the US, and seemingly there are people so braindamaged they take it serious. 😂 Really goes to show how much worse things could be in many countries. At leasy they’re not the US, basically.

    • dream_weasel
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      926 days ago

      No, but virtue signaling white folks will be happy to tell you that, rather than “voting for genocide”, it’s better to vote 3rd party or not at all… thereby electing Trump.

      It’s a principled nut punch to every Muslim, themselves, and all the rest of us. So brave.

      • @Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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        325 days ago

        Look, another group democrats hate. I’m sure if you hate them enough it’ll go full circle.

        Maybe its not so much third party voters as it is the vast majority of americans are intolerant selfish people.

        • dream_weasel
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          Or maybe people who don’t live under the American 2 party system DONT UNDERSTAND HALF A FUCK of what’s going on in our elections and should shut the FUCK up and eat a whole potato instead.

          Respectfully.

          Edit: But it couldn’t be that, otherwise why in the everloving butthole would you still be talking out of your poop shooter?

    • @Fedizen@lemmy.world
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      yeah its a truly dystopian choice but voting for somebody doesn’t mean you approve of everything they have done or will do.

      It just means for those with affected friends and families they have done the cruel calculus and have decided which path will be lesser of two evils.

      I fully expect trump to try to deport palestinian refugees and its crazy this is where we are at.

      • @ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world
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        3427 days ago

        I mean, he’s promised to deport Americans who protest on behalf of the Palestinians. He sure wouldn’t hesitate to deport Palestinian refugees.

      • @Souroak@lemmy.sdf.org
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        3427 days ago

        It is no choice between someone who disappoints me in their responses on this issue, and someone who openly wonders if sending a nuclear warhead into a hurricane a couple hundred miles offshore will lead to a positive result. And of course that was with where his mental state was at over 4 years ago.

    • @irotsoma@lemmy.world
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      4027 days ago

      Every election in the US is that way. It’s a choice of the lesser evil and you can only vote against the greater evil not vote for good.

      • @Tinidril@midwest.social
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        626 days ago

        Every general election is that way. We’ve had alternatives.

        If Harris loses the fault will be with every Democrat that voted Biden over Sanders in 2020. That was the window we had to transform the Democrats into a party that would absolutely crush the MAGA movement. We missed it and we may not see another in this lifetime.

      • @naught101@lemmy.world
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        226 days ago

        The US needs to fix their voting system. Preferential voting, run-off, whatever. First past the post sucks.

        Also the gerrymandering.

  • Flying Squid
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    10227 days ago

    Some of us have lost many family members in Gaza and Lebanon.

    Watch the “a vote for Kamala is a vote for genocide” crowd claim these Palestinian and Lebanese Americans support genocide in Palestine and Lebanon.

    • @tacosanonymous@lemm.ee
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      3027 days ago

      I love you but let’s let the bad faith people speak for themselves.

      Those shitty trolls pretending to be tankies don’t need your help.

    • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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      2027 days ago

      Welcome to your first exposure to the NGO and political class constellation. You might notice that the letter itself is not just Palestinians, either, but includes, per their own statement, Arabs, “Progressive Democrats”, and “Community Leqders”. Notice how many are top-level leadership of various Dem-connected NGOs and how few seem to be average folks.

      Dems have done the same thing when it comes to supporting cops against demands for racial justice re: policing. They gather a set of black " community leaders", I.e. business owners and heads of NGOs and party-associated orgs, and then say, “but actually we want more cops!” It is tokenizing.

      But you have correctly identified its purpose: to get you to participate in the tokenization and have a green light for complicity in genocide. After all, Real Palestinians ™ gave you permission, right?

      • Flying Squid
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        27 days ago

        Called it.

        “I care more about Palestine than those worthless Palestinians do.”

        • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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          927 days ago

          Please do your best to not tokeize marginalized communities. I have mobilized more Palestinians for actions than there are Palestinians on this list. They do not speak for Palestinians. These are party insiders and the heads of NGOs. And, oer the letter itself, which you obviously did not read, it is signed not just by Palestinians, but by “Arabs, Progressive Democrats, and Community Leaders”.

          Democrats do this tokenizing bullshit all the time. Their favorite target is black people where they use the same subclass of people and claim thev speak for " the black community" itself a racist statement, as black people are not a monolith, just like Palestinians are not a monolith.

          Imagine if you saw a headline and letter that read, “Latinos sign letter urging lower wages for Latinos” and it was just signed by a bunch of CEOs. Would you go around telling people that if they want higher wages for Latinos, they know better than Latinos? Would you pretend this is a representative group? Would you go around demanding lower pay?

          • Flying Squid
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            2127 days ago

            I have mobilized more Palestinians for actions than there are Palestinians on this list.

            Thank goodness those backward people have you as their savior!

            • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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              827 days ago

              I work in solidarity, not saviorism. Please do your best to act in good faith and not make things up. It is particularly disgusting when I am opposing a genocide for you to attempt dishonest zingers.

              The point I was making was that this letter is not representative despite the various commenters here attempting to tokenize Palestinians.

              • Flying Squid
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                1727 days ago

                In solidarity with the Palestinians who agree with you but not the Palestinians who don’t, apparently. Their opinions are irrelevant.

                • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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                  727 days ago

                  I work in solidarity with all Palestinians, but that does not mean I agree with or do work in agreement with the opinions of every Palestinian. That is the tokenizing logic I am referring to.

                  Palestinians are not a monolith. Please stop treating them as one. They are real, actual people.

                  And the Palestinians who signed this letter - which was not just signed by Palestinians - are relevant. Unfortunately their relevance in this instance is in a display of party loyalty and in favor of a candidate doing genocide, and it is not coincidental that they drew from NGOs and party insiders to curate the signatories.

      • @floofloof@lemmy.ca
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        27 days ago

        It’s not false that Trump would be even worse though, having encouraged Netanyahu to be even more brutal than he is. So if you have the choice between a vote to keep Trump out, or not voting and making it easier for him to take over, the less worse (but still bad) option for Palestine is to vote for whoever will most effectively keep Trump out.

        I know this kind of electoral pragmatism feels a bit disgusting, but the cure for that is to get politically active outside of the electoral system, in addition to keeping the worst candidate out at election time.

        • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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          727 days ago

          It’s not false that Trump would be even worse though, having encouraged Netanyahu to be even more brutal than he is.

          Netanyahu already has unconditional material support for the genocide from the Biden-Harris administration and they help run interference quite competently both internationally and domestically. They would still have you believe they are working for a “ceasefire” while celebrating the assassination of negotiators and sending unlimited JDAMs to bomb children in refugee camps.

          There is no worse. They are far more competent at this.

          Though again, you should be against genocide and not support genociders. It is not strategic to nirnalize genocide. It is not smart tactics to be a guaranteed lever pull even up to genocide.

          I know this kind of electoral pragmatism feels a bit disgusting, but the cure for that is to get politically active outside of the electoral system, in addition to keeping the worst candidate out at election time.

          It is not pragmatic at all. It is just the lesser evil argument that Dems always use to sheepdog people with a conscience into helping them out. It is a one-way street, as they never actually have to do anything at all that you demand, they are, correctly, treating you as a guaranteed cote. They will just send their PR teams at you.

          We are in this position right now because of this “pragmatism” that prevents any notion of accountability or principal or the idea that you should be able to make a demand and have it reflected in policy. The genocide in Gaza is very unpopular at least in polls. The reason the political class does not follow this popular will is that you are not perceived as any kind of threat. You gladly give away all leverage and announce you will always do so, even up to voting for genocide!

          And this is just disempowerment at the level of an individual. We are of course much more powerful when we organize together and build towards leverage. But that must be done through organizations and cannot happen through me, an individual, telling you that you have a moral responsibility to work against and never for genociders.

          • @LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            927 days ago

            See in the start you’re right, yes, Trump and Harris have the same policy in regards to the Palestinian Genocide. But you act like that means they’re identical human beings who have identical intentions and who will make identical political actions.

            • Flying Squid
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              1627 days ago

              Such people do not care. They didn’t care that Roe got struck down because they acted like Clinton would have picked the exact same SCOTUS justices since “both parties are the same.”

              And when brown people and queer people get marched into camps under Trump, they’ll tell us that Harris would have done the same thing and if we wanted change, we should have voted for a third party candidate without saying which candidate that should have been.

              Very easy to have such opinions from your ivory throne.

            • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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              527 days ago

              See in the start you’re right, yes, Trump and Harris have the same policy in regards to the Palestinian Genocide.

              Actually I argued that the Biden-Harris administration is particularly competent at it, as they provide full, unconditional support but also rope Europe into it and convince their domestic base to not oppose them.

              If Trump had been in office the people here currently doing genocide apologetics would be in the streets and building power against this. And Europe would be less subservient to US interests.

              It is important to understand that impact is not just the overt garbage a politician says, it is what their policies are and how effective their propaganda is.

              But you act like that means they’re identical human beings who have identical intentions and who will make identical political actions.

              No I don’t.

    • @Forester@yiffit.net
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      27 days ago

      Welcome to the Dick chopping block shop. We can take off half an inch or the whole thing

      Edit

      I hope you people downloading me realize that not pulling the lever in the trolley problem is a choice just as much as pulling the lever

    • @MisterScruffy@lemmy.ml
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      1826 days ago

      We respect those who feel they simply can’t vote for a member of the administration that sent the bombs that may have killed their loved ones

      Try explaining this to .ee, .world

      • @joenforcer@midwest.social
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        2126 days ago

        Thanks for making it disgustingly obvious how easy it is to cherry-pick statements, excluding the full context, to push forward an agenda.

        We all know the situation. But we also have more folds in our grey matter to understand the consequences of the alternatives.

        • @Tinidril@midwest.social
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          Extracting that statement is perfectly fine because it’s the one point that Harris supporters can’t get through their thick skulls. It is actually possible to make the case to vote for Harris without directing preachy paternalistic bullshit at people who have lost the lives of friends and family to this administration.

          I realize fully the threat Trump is, and I’m reluctantly voting Harris myself. I want Harris to win, and I see you preachy morons driving other potential Harris voters away and it’s maddening. You self-righteous assholes need to get a fucking clue. Please go do something useful like read a book on the art of persuasion until this election is over because you’re not helping.

          • @joenforcer@midwest.social
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            426 days ago

            Way ahead of you. When trying to persuade, you need to know your audience. I’m going door to door canvassing, and having conversations with voters that have these concerns. Those conversations, meeting people one-on-one with empathy, has a profound effect.

            In contrast, here, I was responding to someone who was obviously acting in bad faith. I’m not trying to convince that person, but making sure others observing the conversation don’t feel gaslit and second-guess the reality others are trying to distort.

            I’m not as dense as I might appear. However, I do appreciate you calling me out so we can have a conversation like this. It’s important, and it helps us all learn and grow.

            • @Tinidril@midwest.social
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              426 days ago

              I don’t share the same read on that comment, but it appears you are more reasonable than I gave you credit for. Thank you for your door to door work for the cause.

            • @Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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              225 days ago

              You can’t just call someone else’s perspective bad faith because you can’t understand how they might legitimately hold it. Do you expect others to treat your perspective that way?

              Its nice that you canvas but its irrelevant as well, especially so since you state you treat people differently depending if they are face to face or not.

              The original quote stuck out to me too, because its the part noone on this website will say to someone who’s voting third party.

              You say gas lighting and bad faith like you have any idea their intent. If I were to use the same standard what is top stop me from declaring your posts bad faith as well?

        • @sandbox@lemmy.world
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          525 days ago

          “other people may disagree with me, but it’s only because i am smarter than them, if they were smart like me, they’d agree with me actually”

  • @Etterra@lemmy.world
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    7126 days ago

    Good, I hope it does some good. Any other vote is a vote for Trump, intended or not, and Trump won’t just ignore the genocide. His track record makes it abundantly clear that he’ll absolutely make it worse.

    • @iAvicenna@lemmy.world
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      1326 days ago

      I mean he is where money is and that is powerful zionist lobbies so yea you can bet money that he will be super enthusiastic to help Israel.

    • @bluewing@lemm.ee
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      526 days ago

      I don’t know about that. I think he just doesn’t care about some “brown” people getting genocided. Unless there is graft he can profit from, then he will care. And I’m sure there will be a For Sale sign on the White House lawn about it.

    • @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      225 days ago

      Any other vote is a vote for trump

      This is just factually incorrect. And easily demonstrated using math you should have learned in the 5th grade.

      Trump: 5 votes

      Harris: 5 votes

      Any other vote: 5 votes

      If i keep adding votes to ‘any other vote’ the ratio between trump / Harris will not change.

      T: 5 H: 5 AOV: 10000

      Ratio is still one see? In no way is Harris’ chances of winning impacted by a third party vote.

      What you mean to say is ‘Harris having shitty policies that are abhorrent to the voting population causes her to be at risk of losing to a literal fascist.’

      By trying to put the blame on other voters because you are willing to overlook genocide says more about you than it does them.

      There is only one person who can fix Harris’ platform. Put the blame where it rightfully belongs, on harris.

      • @GooseFinger@sh.itjust.works
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        Sure, but only fourth grade logic is required to see why that’s wrong.

        Trump: 50,000,000 votes

        Kamala: 50,000,000 votes

        Other candidates: 1,000 votes + 3,000 votes + 7,000 votes + …

        When an primitive voting scheme is used that says “winner takes all and you can only vote for one candidate,” a vote for any other candidate is essentially the same as not voting unless the masses gather behind a single third party (which will never happen, especially with the internet).

        A voting scheme more sophisticated that allows people to pick multiple candidates, in something like a ranked list for example, would make third party votes worth something. But that disrupts the status quo and doesn’t help career politicians, so we’ll never see that unless heads start rolling.

        • @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          123 days ago

          Lol you’d fail fourth grade. First off there is no evidence third party people would vote for any other candidate if the 3rd party wasnt on the ballot.

          Secondly did you know that in ~40/50 states your harris vote is very unlikely change the outcome, and in 16 of those harris is assured the win? If you’re in those 16 think long and hard if genocide is the line you’re willing to cross.

          Fun fact do you know many 3rd party candidates and no voters this year are Republicans?

          Second fun fact: did you know that our government has two electable branches? And you can deny votes for one to influence the other? Did you also know that this works locally too?

          For example i routinely deny candidates from the Democratic party my vote while voting for other Democratic candidates to increase the likelihood they are replaced or change their positions.

          The governor who is prochoice has way more votes than the legislature candidate who wasnt 🤔. Funny how that works. So again anyone reading this:

          1. Support rank choice voting in your region.
          2. Feel free to vote third party! Its fine in most cases. Just show up and vote.
          3. If you’re in a competitive district: voting third party might not be in your interest!
          4. Stop repeating the lesser evil nonsense and learn how to leverage your vote for the maximum outcome. Handing your vote out to the lesser evil is why we dont have labor rights or decent health care.
          5. The genocide is a real fucking problem and America should not be backing it. If you like my dear friend im responding to here maybe learn a more nuanced view for voting instead of being driven by fear. You’ll get better outcomes both in convincing people to support your candidate and in your stress levels.
  • @pjwestin@lemmy.world
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    6527 days ago

    Man, I hope this changes some minds, but it might be too little too late. She’s had a lot of opportunities to turn things around with the Arab community, and she’s flat out ignored all of them. I’m really worried this will be her version of Hillary’s, “I don’t need to campaign in the Rust Belt,” decision.

    • @GiddyGap@lemm.ee
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      726 days ago

      Fact is that no matter what position Kamala takes on this, she’ll lose votes somewhere and win votes somewhere. Most Jewish people vote for Democrats. Trump just straight up does not care about Palestine. That’s a much more simplistic take.

      • @pjwestin@lemmy.world
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        826 days ago

        Well, first of all, I would be very careful equating Jewish people with support for Israel and their attacks on Gaza. Not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists support Netanyahu. I don’t know the numbers for sure, but I would bet that Evangelicals and military hawks make up a larger base of pro-Israel voters than the Jewish population.

        The thing is, Biden’s policy, from a material position, is essentially, “There is almost nothing Israel could do that would limit our military support,” while Trump’s position is, “There is absolutely nothing Israel could do that would limit our military support.” If you’re the kind of voter that would be put off by any criticism of Israel, you’re probably voting for Trump no matter what.

        Like, sure, I’d Harris started chanting, “From the river to the sea!” and demanding the immediate decolonization of the Israel, yeah, she’d lose a lot of voters. But if she had taken a position like, “Israel has a right to defend itself, but the bloodshed in Gaza has gone on long enough, and we must acknowledge that the Netanyahu administration has been a major obstacle in ceasefire negotiations,” she would have been massively more appealing to Palestinian supporters, and she would have only risked hard-liners who, again, almost certainly have gone for Trump anyway. Instead, she told Netanyahu that she would, “not be silent,” on Palestinian suffering, and since then, has been mostly silent on Palestinian suffering. It’s like she was trying to appeal to no one on this issue.

        • @GiddyGap@lemm.ee
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          426 days ago

          if she had taken a position like, “Israel has a right to defend itself, but the bloodshed in Gaza has gone on long enough, and we must acknowledge that the Netanyahu administration has been a major obstacle in ceasefire negotiations,” she would have been massively more appealing to Palestinian supporters

          Thing is that she doesn’t really have to. She’s already massively more attractive to Palestinian supporters than Trump or not voting. That’s the problem with a two-party system with only two real choices.

            • @GiddyGap@lemm.ee
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              426 days ago

              There has been a lot of talk to pressure Democrats on the Arab issue, including during the primaries. At the end of the day, the Democratic agenda is much more friendly toward Palestine than the Republican agenda. Most Arab-Americans are fully aware of that and it will probably show on election day. But they may as well try to get as many concessions as possible before the election by threatening to withhold their vote. Makes sense.

              • @pjwestin@lemmy.world
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                226 days ago

                I get what you’re saying, but that’s just an assumption. You’re assuming that they’ll show up for Harris, just like Hillary assumed she didn’t need to campaign in the Rust Belt. You may be right, but I wouldn’t gamble the Presidency on it again.

  • @mycodesucks@lemmy.world
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    4827 days ago

    Not that I’m not glad, but this kind of endorsement needs time to permeate, and could’ve shut up a large chunk of disingenuous contrarians a MONTH ago.

    • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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      1327 days ago

      Tokenizing a smattering of NGO and party-connected Palestinians would not shut up anyone against the genocide of Gaza.

      • @mycodesucks@lemmy.world
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        2927 days ago

        Nor should they. Nobody should shut up about the genocide of Gaza. They SHOULD shut up about the stupid idea that not voting for Harris is any kind of way to help that situation.

          • @Freefall@lemmy.world
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            226 days ago

            I just can’t get in the mindset of “destroy the US to also do nothing about genocide”. Now let’s talk about your actions against the Uyghers that the Chinese govt has be genociding…oh wait, .ml is cool with that one.

          • @mycodesucks@lemmy.world
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            1427 days ago

            If you don’t support her, even if you think it’s somehow good for Palestinians for her to lose, which it isn’t, you are comfortably throwing minorities, LGBTQ, and progressives in every country around the world into the meat grinder to prove your point. Sacrificing and doing ANYTHING to help one particular group, the consequences for everyone else be damned, isn’t really all that different from the Zionists they purport to be against.

            • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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              827 days ago

              If you don’t support her, even if you think it’s somehow good for Palestinians for her to lose, which it isn’t

              It is good for Palestinians and all people for the people of the US to think of genocide as unacceptable.

              you are comfortably throwing minorities, LGBTQ, and progressives in every country around the world into the meat grinder to prove your point.

              Do you think there are no queer people or minorities in Gaza? Are they immune to JDAM bombs?

              Though really, you have no concept of solidarity. You seek to pit these groups against each other because the political class that you support puts a gun to their head. Instead of repeating their sociopathic threats, you should work in solidarity with all marginalized people.

              An injury to one is an injury to all.

              Sacrificing and doing ANYTHING to help one particular group, the consequences for everyone else be damned, isn’t really all that different from the Zionists they purport to be against.

              As you can see, I do not share the logic of pitting marginalized groups against one another. However you literally just tried to do that.

              Please do some introspection.

              • @mycodesucks@lemmy.world
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                27 days ago

                Acknowledging that in a world of 10 billion people, groups do not always have the same overlapping interests or that the best course of action for the most people does not always correspond with the best course of action for one group in particular does NOT equate to pitting groups against each other. That is a childish oversimplification that borders on anime protagonist morality, and unfortunately, the real world doesn’t have writers who ensure that there are perfect solutions to be found if everyone involved is just stubborn enough.

                • @TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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                  627 days ago

                  Acknowledging that in a world of 10 billion people, groups do not always have the same overlapping interests or that the best course of action for the most people does not always correspond with the best course of action for one group in particular does NOT equate to pitting groups against each other.

                  We both know that is not how you framed it. It was not a vague generalization, it was an emphatic accusation, a lie, in fact, about specific groups I was abandoning.

                  I work in organizations that do solidarity work. Not any org that says “support the genocide of Palestine for LGBTQ!” Nor any org that says, “down with the gays for Palestine!” Though the latter doesn’t really exist, there is no correlary to the division of the marginalized that you are forwarding among those fighting for Palestinian liberation. In fact, my usual org for doing work for Palestine is very gay and very good on gender.

                  Shame on you for lying and shame on you for trying to disrupt solidarity among the marginalized. Queer people are not your pawns for pithy genocide apologetic zingers.

                  That is a childish oversimplification that borders on anime protagonist morality, and unfortunately, the real world doesn’t have writers who ensure that there are perfect solutions to be found if everyone involved is just stubborn enough.

                  I think you should do some introspection regarding what is childish and oversimplifying given your habit of ignoring almost everything I say and then making things up to attack instead.