As a colored dude, it’s hard to explain. I’ve even had white folks say, “Nah man it’s not like that.”
The impact of centuries of slavery, segregation, and unequal treatment doesn’t disappear quickly. Even if the root causes were completely resolved (and they are not), the consequences reverberate for a long time. We cannot forget that much of our life is a result of where we start, and it was the same for our parents, and their parents.
They know.
Surprisingly, they don’t. Well, the ones who enact / reject these policies do, but the layman doesn’t. It’s incredibly frustrating to have friends and co-workers who reject the explanation for why DEI matters and is important
Sorry for my ignorance, but what does DEI stand for?
No need to apologize. Diversity, equity and inclusion. It’s the principle that having more representation is a good thing. The Trump administration is against it because they claim it takes opportunities away from straight white men.
i mean it does and that’s a good thing, we’ve seen what happens when we leave it up to the employer.
nepotism hires as far as the eye can see.
Diversity, equity, and Irrigation
Irrigation?
Just kidding, it’s inclusion/inclusivity 😁
Deacidification, emaciation, irrigation
She still believes that conservatives argue in good faith?
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The country is a racist shithole, and more people than you might think are essentially closeted bigots, unless they think you’re some ally, oh boy will they open up and it gets uncomfortable.
If they keep picking White Men, how are minorities supposed to feel like a part of the country?
That’s not a bug, it’s a feature.
I fully agree and in typical American fashion, affirmative action and DEI were just bandaids to quickly solve some of the effects of institutional discrimination, instead of solving it at the root.
Even I, as a very progressive person, don’t like some DEI hires. But the actual problematic DEI hires are not talented people like Kamala Harris. They are connected incompetent people.
I think Clarence Thomas would be a good example. By most accounts he is the most corrupt and incompetent justice, who just happened to run in the right conservative circles.
In the business world, I also see quite a lot of well-connected incompetent people. It used to be white gulf buddies, now it tends to be the white sister-of, or the latina wife-of, the gulf buddy.
Maybe the Trump kids are the best example of DEI hires. Ivanka Trump, anyone?
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The job of politicians shouldn’t be considered to be to make people feel represented. It should be to actually represent them.
If it was to make people feel represented, then I’m sorry to inform you that Donald Trump is the most successful President in my memory, perhaps the most successful ever, because that is his appeal - he makes the MAGAts feel represented, and he does so very very strongly.
Thomas got in because of cronyism. He was the best conspirator available. He was also appointed by a Republican President who claimed he was the best qualified. Quite the opposite of token hiring. The party accused of using DEI to subvert a meritocracy opposed his appointment (Democrats).
So in summary, the GOP is projecting its failures onto Democrats again.
DEI is state approved racism designed to replace non approved racism.
You can believe one is worse than the other.
I believe both are shit.
It isn’t about race. It’s about making sure that all perspectives are taken into account when making a decision. That’s it. The think tanks against it are against having rules put upon them. Removing DEI is the same as stripping out market regulation.
wtf do you think DEI is?? have you never sat through a training? it’s the most boring thing ever
DEI is literally oversight to ensure that there ISNT racism . For example, it includes:
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Outreach programs to talk to people in underrepresented communities to tell them that opportunities exist
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Avoiding biased language and assumptions in the hiring process that would negatively impact people of certain demographics
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Hiring authorities that prevent bias against the disabled and veterans
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Audits and data to see if an organization has decided to just be racist and reject non-white applicants
Your argument is, we should remove people’s protections because if we taught everyone better they wouldnt be discriminatory.
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DEI also includes protecting people with disabilities, and veterans from getting skipped over in the hiring process. Those have nothing to do with race. Do veterans deserve to get shit canned too?
What’s your answer to this then?
Free education and healthcare for everyone, regardless of background, ethnicity and gender.
That would be awesome but it doesn’t address the issue unless you want to pretend lack of education and healthcare are the major barries holding women and minorities back in the workforce.
Women and minorities do not have the same access to education and healthcare.
I will admit that it is not the immediate band aid on the cancerous seeping wound DEI is.
It’s something that will take time.
They don’t have the same access to most shit white men do, that’s why things like DEI exist.
it can’t confront the root causes and still operate under capitalism.
DEI is just as useful as Unions at getting people a fair deal and just as useless at fixing the reason for their existence.
That’s great.
Now do equal opportunities for employment.
And how do we do that?
Equality and equity are not the same thing, systemic issues are baked into our laws and policies. Mostly geared at the lower socioeconomic status members of society.
Which tend to be minority members due to the very same systemic issues.
Some people need a different sized ladder to get to the same position.
Edit: an extra word
Progressive taxation.
Damn, bet nobody was expecting this reply!
I agree completely.
Because it’s bullshit. It’s saying these disenfranchised people need help to better themselves and ignores the systems in place that work directly against them achieving success.
It also has nothing to do with DEI, which is generally about workplace culture and hiring practices.
It seems a lot of people are confusing DEI for affirmative action.
Ok cracker.
I think, “state approved racism” is the best definition. God forbid to be a person from Eastern Europe: even though you have a background akin to middle East (mostly democracy and wealth-wise), you’ll get treated as a fucking King Charles in US because of your skin color. Check my privelege? I didn’t have any to begin with!
I mean given the USA’s history with black slavery, it’s not exactly surprising their focus is on black people specifically.
Unfortunately, Europe doesn’t do much better in that area, although it should know better. Hearing Germans talk about how they have to support Israel then turn around to talk shit about Poland getting money from them is infuriating.
The honest take on DEI (which I think is total horse shit) is racially discriminating “the other way” to make up for the past.
One big part about these discussions is some people say that racism has power as a component, i.e. black people can’t be racist. This take is what enables them to sit in a committee and say “we have two equally qualified candidates, so let’s give the job to the black one” and say that with a straight face without feeling like they racially discriminated, even though the DEFINITION of racial discrimination is making a decision based solely on race.
As a white guy, it is like that. In the same way it is in female run office spaces. But white guy culture is definitely the most toxic. They feel unashamedly deserving when they find good old boys clubs.
Having worked in a sexist office, it sucks, having worked for good old boys, it sucks. Not being able to call people out on their shit fucking sucks.
female run office spaces
The worst places I have worked at had female leadership and majority women employees. The gossip and bullying was off the scale. Older ladies harassing young men was a daily occurrence and laughed at.
Reminds me of this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1168182/Catfights-handbags-tears-toilets-When-producer-launched-women-TV-company-thought-shed-kissed-goodbye-conflict-.html
It’s the DailyMail, so take it with a wheelbarrow of salt, but it’s what came to mind.
Women being assholes to men has become deeply ingrained in American culture.
Men dumb, women smart is something many men agree with while claiming to be alpha. It’s quite silly and has resulted in a form a toxicity that remains poorly defined but palpable once you’re aware of it…
I think it’s just that people being assholes to each other has become deeply ingrained in American culture. It’s become totally acceptable to dehumanize other people for trivial reasons, on both the right and the left.
Diversity
Equity
InclusionIt’s not “woke”, no matter how hard they try to convince you of it! Diversity: Okay, yeah. If you’re some close-minded person who’s stayed in the same small town your whole life you might fear people who are different and not understand them. Literally part of what these initiatives are trying to improve, but whatever. However, the other two are basically just about fairness and making sure everyone has the chance to thrive! Nothing to fear there! Who could possibly be against that!?
To answer the last sentence: literally Nazis
Progress threatens the profoundly mediocre.
I’m in a red area and most of the pushback I hear is about equity. They’re all for equality/equal opportunities but don’t support guaranteeing equal outcomes. Whatever that means. I’m just trying to answer your question from the end of your comment because I’ve heard people say that.
Sounds like those folks don’t actually know what the word equity means.
I mean the very simple answer they’ll have to any point you make is “it’s a lie told by <opposition> to get <what they want> unfairly and/or illegally.”
Which is why earnest discussion is so difficult. Neither side can really trust that the other side to use words that match intent. I, for sure, don’t trust anything a Right-leaning pundit says about their reasons for legislative positions.
As a white guy, I’d like to think it’s not like that. I’d like to think that we left racism and all this bullshit in the past and any job goes to the best qualified applicant regardless of race, gender, or sexual preferences.
While I would like that to be true, I know that isn’t the world we live in.
People hire their friends and family anyway.
People lie about it in my experience. I work in government and in education. I’ve received our “DEI” training. I’m in the very heart of it, and all I’ve seen is that it’s the exact thing that the people who complain about it say (sometimes) that they want instead. They (probably say but don’t necessarily mean) that we should hire based on merit and not race. Well guess what? My dei training is watching a video where: some boss says "I don’t want to hire Ahmed ", his subordinate says “but he’s the best candidate” and his boss says “yeah but he’s Indian” freeze frame, question on what you should do, play video saying to hire him if he’s the most qualified guy.
Maybe your experience is different, but I’m in an organization that is what gets pointed to the hardest as “the problem” by these people, and I have seen what they describe. Maybe it’s different for HR, but are you in our HR department, or have you just “heard about it”
But the ascent is something I’ve literally heard mentioned by white owners. When they hired their first non-white employee they made a point of mentioning how easy he was to understand.
if you think white people are bad, you should see south and east Asians
In the very strictest sense, not exactly. If you looked at resumes with all indicators of race and gender removed, then you would probably see that the people with the highest amount of merit were white men.
…But that’s only half of the story.
The issue is that, broadly speaking, white men will have had more advantages growing up that allowed them to have that merit. It’s no indicator of potential. If you get a head start on the race, then sure, you’re much more likely to end up winning, not because you’re inherently faster, but because you got an advantage. DEI is part of an attempt to find the people who have the potential to be the best, no just the people that are the best right now.
This isn’t even true though. Hiring is done by people who have implicit biases and subconscious preferences. When a hiring committee has no diversity, the people hired tend to be less diverse than the average.
The issue is, in practically, resumes don’t have all indicators of race or gender removed.
There have been several studies that suggest that the name on the resume is enough of an indicator of race and gender to let bias creep in. Even on otherwise identical resumes. I’m not sure if we’re going to remove names from resumes any time soon.
Just wait until Silicon Valley Google coders are all Indian foreign born making 35K/year living on the Google campus. DEI works both ways.
This misses the point entirely.
DEI is about finding the best candidate for the job, and paying them fair wages.
What you’re describing is literally anti-DEI. Musk and Trump have both been open about using the H-1B visa program to find foreign workers who will work cheaply, and they do it so that they don’t have to pay American workers a fair amount.
Musk and Trump have both been open about using the H-1B visa program to find foreign workers who will work cheaply, and they do it so that they don’t have to pay American workers a fair amount.
That’s exactly what I’m saying
My mistake. I thought you were arguing the other way.
DEI is about finding the best candidate for the job, and paying them fair wages.
No it isn’t. Its about finding the best PR pitch for the university you’re recruiting in. Since American universities are going to shit, tech companies are moving abroad to hire cheaper (and often, frankly, better) developers overseas.
This creates a knock-on effect as well, since hiring is often part of a traditional march out to a select set of college campuses or by referral from existing employees. As Google/Meta/Amazon staff up with more and more East Indian workers, the networking effect sets in and future hiring fixates on the same places the last crop of hires came from.
The DEI line is just whitewashing for H1-B programs the tech sector already embraced. Now that its no longer in vogue, we’re “Getting rid of DEI” to keep doing the H1-B programs that tech has embraced. Its all post-hoc PR rationalization.
Thats the thing- they’re describing what will happen when DEI programs are dismantled.
This is the direction Google was heading anyway. More H1-B visas. More precarious employment for developers. More downward pressure on wages. Longer hours. Shittier living conditions. Eat the Bugs. Live in the Pod. Then spend your free time telling people to Like, Subscribe, and Share your 10 Neat Tricks on how they can make it all the way to the “coding goon for a defunct software company” proletariat high water mark.
The presence or absence of DEI was always just window dressing for shit these companies wanted to do anyway. DEI never really worked save as a means of shoving off the then-current administration’s interrogation of Silicon Valley business practice. Now that the old Bidencrats are gone and the new Trumpocrats are in, its time to say “Actually all the Vivek Ramaswamy clones we’re importing are part of the MAGA vision and they always have been”.
We already had Equal Opportunity laws for race and disability though, but DEI is actually sneaked-in Marxism. What do people think Marxism is a just philosophy? It’s inherently anti-social and sociopathic.
https://newdiscourses.com/2023/04/marxist-roots-of-dei-workshop-all-sessions/
Under Marxism, it’s okay to put someone to death for being a “better off peasant”, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak
I’ve literally had people tell me on Lemmy that it was okay that Stalin put kulaks to death. I’ve also had people tell me on Lemmy that it’s okay to forcibly steal from people, as in middle-class citizens, to “redistribute wealth”.
Progressively taxing people and democratically deciding how to spend funds is one thing. But the Stalin-like taking of peoples properties and resources is worlds apart! The only sane way to bring people universal healthcare and UBI etc is something like the Nordic model, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
No one should be racist or ableist, but trying to sneak in Marxism under the guise of anti-racism is fucked.
There are comments in this thread downvoted for rightly pointing out the racism in other countries. Have you lived in LatAm countries or Asia? Western democracies are comparatively the least racist places on the face of this world! Don’t fucking kid yourselves.
People should try to save democracies, but let’s not fucking pretend that other places are angelic heavens which do no wrong. It’s disingenuous and detached from reality.
If you think DEI is Marxism in disguise you know neither what it nor Marxism actually are.
Actually, I do know, I’ve read enough about Stalinism and Leninism. It’s not a huge leap, then, to connect the equity philosophy to enable redistribution of wealth and resources to the Global south, especially as it relates to Climate justice.
Authoritarianism is still fucked whether the people oppressing you are left or right.
Lol thinking DEI is somehow parallel to authoritarianism is hilarious.
You might want to work on your reading comprehension if this is the lesson you learned. Making sure a company has a fair and unbiased hiring process or representation of minorities or fair pay and equal equity for stakeholders that are people of color or women, etc etc is a very far cry from some sort of broad wealth redistribution.
Then tell me why I am being called a Nazi for bringing up the FACTUAL connection DEI and CRT both have to Neo-Marxism and Marxism. I am not racist, nor homophobic, or transphobic. I want to see better outcomes for people in minority status. I just don’t want people to blindly accept Marxist ideologies.
Because they’re not Marxist ideologies and you’re trying to pretend they are and/or reading materials that are disingenuous and incorrect.
I’m not calling you a Nazi but I am telling you that CRT and DEI initiatives are not at all grounded in Marxism.
Maybe you’re right in so many words, I’ll take into consideration.
Here’s some reading, https://pure.hud.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/16137312/Marxism_CRT_and_Black_Radicalism_FINAL.pdf
Your first link really reads as conspiracy theory, Ive yet to meet a Marxist HR department
Tbh I thought the same at first, but it’s because it’s distilling so much underlying philosophy to its most apparent application.
https://medium.com/@iskandar.talaei/dei-explained-by-james-lindsay-53dd9cd510d2
Other povs
https://lawliberty.org/the-philosophy-underlying-dei/
https://www.newsweek.com/critical-race-theory-repackaged-marxism-opinion-1599557
In other words, the designers and adherents of critical theory admitted their true intent. Not equality under the law. Not civil rights. Not freedom, liberty and justice for all. Not a better life for racial minorities. Critical theorists admit their intent is to use racial minorities as the vanguard for a Marxist revolution.
Stalin was not the best example of Marxism. Stalin was a megalomaniac that killed a political rival that wasn’t a threat just because he once was a threat.
The term kulak was older than Stalin.
And the last part is a bookcase whataboutism.
lol of course, not a True Scot
As a socialist citizen of a Nordic state, the Nordic model is a wonderful example of socialism in practice. The US, even with full DEI implementation, would be nowhere near as socialist as the Nordic countries.
Exactly, socialism is necessary for balancing out some of the adverse effects of capitalism. The Nordic model is a sensible approach to socialism. The Marxists will have you believe that it’s better to die by their guns than by the guns of right-leaning fascists.
This might be the most insane take i read all day
“They hated him, for he told them the truth.”
Will being hated make what someone says more true?
hahaha thanks for the laugh
I know that sociology is an elective in a lot of US colleges, and I thoughr more people would haveI taken it. It pretty straightforwardly explained that every aspect we hold inevitably drives our social interactions and life experience whether we like to or not. From what I’ve gathered from my friend’s experiences and the attitutes I’ve seen onlone, the sentiment of “why does it matter to be X” is very much prevelant, and being on the receiving end of unknowing racism really does hurt.
But at the same time, understanding that point also means understanding that people who do not have your traits may not be able to fathom these sorts of experiences (though experience in general is hard to transfer) which results in a kind of dismissal. I’m not saying to forgive, but I understand, and it’ll be all I think about as I help educate (and/or bulldoze disrespectful) people.
Many people beed tk realize the reality that a lot of the interactions we are seeing on mainstream social media platforms especially x/ twitter whatever the fuck its called now, is heavily manipulated by imperial actors such as the company team Jorge which is a mossad run bot farm out of israel that for a price (or even for free depending on the cause, floods platforms with fake engagement meant to make conservatism Look more popular than it truly is to manufacture consent and confuse/ wear down people attempting to dialogue and potentially even convince uninformed people consuming this state propaganda to support fascism/ conservatism.
One of my regrets about not having Twitter is that I don’t know what’s going on over there, which tbf is probably better for mental health, but it’s better to listen in just cause information is power. Though, I must imagine it’s just a damn stupid echo chamber (also tbf, all social media)
