Sigh, please stop using that argument, it is an easy cop out, and you don’t actually help your cause by analyzing the real issue.
The real reason why people willingly use Windows is multifaceted and can be boiled down to a few points.
It is the defacto standard. If you are going to use a desktop/laptop computer you will probably use Windows, especially at work.
Most users know Windows in some capacity, this means that companies have an easier time finding staff than if they used something else, it wouldn’t be impossible but it would mean spending more time and money training the staff and causing them to be less productive for longer as they learn the system. This is slowly changing with the rise of web apps, chromebooks and Macs. But still, having IT support a fleet of Linux desktops/laptops when working in a non IT sector would be increadibly wasteful
Software, like it or not, Windows has a huge amount of proprietary software dominance, organizations LOVE proprietary software and dislike FOSS for one reason. Liability. This means that they get a number to call, email to contact, a person to yell at, they can deflect complaints and seem like they are a strong decisive company by taking legal action against an external party, and not have the buck stop with themselves.
I am an IT technician, this is what I have seen in the corporate world.
By talking about “brainwashing” you remove most of the actual information that could help you figure out how Linux could be better suited for the masses, and to be frank, using a word like “brainwashing” makes the Linux community seem a bit unhinged/cultish.
Focus on facts, then you can use them to change the actual issue.
It is the default. Almost all computers today come with Windows. If someone clearly unknowledgeavle were to ask the salespeople in any PC store, they’d say some variation of “just use Windows”.
Microsoft managed to make sure “a PC” almost exclusively means “A computer [with Windows]”.
Look if you’ve spent any time whatsoever interacting with clients, customers, whatever when it comes to development work for literally whatever be it software or web or mobile applications at the end of the day they all want the same thing. They want it to just work. Right out of the box, to simply work. The majority of people DO NOT want to customize their PC or online experience, they don’t want to tinker, hell these days they don’t even want to download an exe off a site - if it’s not in some kind of app store, it ain’t getting installed. They all want a thing to just work.
Windows, like it or not, provides that. They don’t want to use Linux, they don’t want to potentially have to open a terminal and type out some simple commands. Most of these people have never even opened a cmd prompt or powershell in windows in like…ever. A good chunk of people using windows don’t even know terminals exist.
I use linux, I use different distros, and I don’t blame anyone who refuses to make the transition even though they aren’t exactly enjoying their windows experience. They deal with it. Let them complain. A lot of people simply don’t have the time or even the interest to learn a new piece of tech and again I don’t blame them.
Can Linux also “just work”? sure, it can potentially but lets not kid ourselves here and lets REALLY be honest with each other. It’s not going to “just work” like Windows, for the vast majority of people, does.
For my totally tech illiterate wife, the solution was NixOS and GNOME. She struggled so bad with Windows ways of things and its UI, and how slow it was. Installed Nix and no more screaming, she does her spreadsheets for work, zoom calls and email.
Excellent points but I would argue that for the majority of users, Mint does indeed just work right out of the box. Everything that most people would need is already there.
“They use Windows because they are used to Windows” is not an argument but a cop out.
“They know Windows better because they use Windows” is not an argument because… guess what… people can learn. That’s how they got their (probably very basic) knowledge of Windows in the first place.
Paid and externally supported Linux/Foss exists. Choosing Windows instead because that’s somehow magically the only one with support available is just a recursion to #1.
If you want to talk facts however, start with money spend on lobbying, on pushing it on education early, on forcing people to buy their hardware with Windows pre-installed etc…
People usually do prefer the comfort of familiarity. That’s not a cop out. That’s just how most people work. Why do you think the most unanimously hated windows versions were the ones that changed the most? Why do you think the basic design of macOS hasn’t changed at all in more than two decades? People like what they’re used to. And a lot of them are used to Windows and have been for decades.
While yes, they can learn, a lot have acquired their (probably indeed very basic) knowledge of windows over the duration of 20+ years. It’s quite a jump to suddenly change that. It’s possible to learn, of course but it’s also necessary to lean and most people aren’t willing to do that if what they have works well enough.
This does indeed come back to people prefer what they’re used to. Of course that also goes for available software. People are used to Microsoft Office, Acrobat Reader, Outlook, the Creative Cloud, etc.
For some of those there are good Linux/FOSS alternatives, but for some there aren’t. I, for example, cannot switch my work macbook for a Linux machine. It’s simply not possible because of the software I need. My desktop at home does run Linux though, because there I don’t have the same hurdles.
That is indeed a big part that deserves more focus. A mainstream PC manufacturer (like Lenovo, Dell, HP, Acer, etc.) shipping a line of devices with Linux instead of Windows, especially if they pass the licensing savings on to the customers might do a lot for Linux adoption, similar to what, for example, the Steam deck did.
Because a lot of people don’t actually care. Yea, they’re more comfortable with Windows but in the end, all they need is a browser. Why do you think chromebooks sell so well?
Why do you think the most unanimously hated windows versions
I know that people hated every single one since Windows 98SE… it’s basically a constant cycle of releasing shit, then keeping it relevant -mostly via forcing people to buy it with their PC- long enough that people resignate and believe tech has to be that bad, then forcing the next and even worse version on people.
So which were those unanimously hated versions. Or -maybe easier- which version was widelys adopted before people had no choice because all support for older ones was cut?
People are used to Microsoft Office, Acrobat Reader, Outlook, the Creative Cloud, etc.
And that is some kind of law of nature? Or the result of paying massive amounts of money to flood everything with this shit for free? Seriously… I think you competely misjudge the majority of users. They are not so much clinging to the familiar as just lazily sticking to whatever pops up when they press the power button.
Why do you think chromebooks sell so well?
They do? I have seen one chromebook in real life. Which I would probably not have noticed between all the other laptops and tablets if it wasn’t for the fact that this was the most overpriced piece of shit constantly having issues with even the most basic stuff.
(Edit/PS: I just did a quick search and most numbers I found point to chromebooks being more rare than Linux. Which is an achievement given that barely any piece of basic consumer laptop/tablet/whatever comes pre-installed with Linux.)
But I know the sales internationally were declining for quite some time until they spend a lot of money to bribe governments to hand them out as the tech version of a gateway drug.
So for example at the moment increases in chromebook sales in the last years are mainly caused by government procurements in Asia. Japan alone saw sales increase by a factor of 20 in 2024… so I really, really doubt anyone actually wanted a chromebook. But this will probably change after the next generation of students conditioned to think that this shit is how it’s supposed to be enters the market. *sigh*
It’s the de facto standard for many reasons, none of them being individuals’ choices. Microsoft paid and pushed for Windows to become the default OS on pretty much all OEM hardware, they lobbied super hard to push people into using Office, they gave massive discounts on licences for corporations, big and small companies.
It has nothing to do with individual choices, it created the problem you mentioned in your comment though. People just became complacent and ignorant because of that, not the other way around.
Brother LOL I don’t understand why you’re telling me this when you’re the one talking about TPM and CPU. Of course they don’t. I’m just pointing out why many many people choose to use Windows instead of Mac.
That said, Apple supports their phones longer than anyone else has to date.
We weren’t talking about phones. But since we are now, software support is meaningless when the hardware is completely irreparable.
Microsoft’s own Surface devices are among the least repairable on the planet. And Google has a browser and search monopoly, and almost all of their hardware is disposable once they get bored with it.
My 7 year old penguin can lap most peoples horses.
Why would i want to use a new horse that comes crippled, always watches me, supports genocide, keeps putting the saddle back on that I keep telling it I don’t want to use, prevents me from riding it the way i want, and tells me my horse and assless chaps are no good every few years?
The only real options for the average user are Mac or Windows. Linux just isn’t as user friendly, and a lot of the customization and flexibility of Linux is actually a determinant for non technical people.
I’m a technical person and I can’t stand Linux as a main driver. Love it for development and as a server, but it can be very janky for UI things.
I used windows out of concern that my university may use an application unavailable on Linux (I’m an electrical engineering major) I shouldn’t have been since even if there isn’t, I could always use bottles/wine to get the .exe file.
Because they are brainwashed into thinking it’s the easiest platform, and that any problems they encounter are because that’s just how computers are.
Sigh, please stop using that argument, it is an easy cop out, and you don’t actually help your cause by analyzing the real issue.
The real reason why people willingly use Windows is multifaceted and can be boiled down to a few points.
I am an IT technician, this is what I have seen in the corporate world.
By talking about “brainwashing” you remove most of the actual information that could help you figure out how Linux could be better suited for the masses, and to be frank, using a word like “brainwashing” makes the Linux community seem a bit unhinged/cultish.
Focus on facts, then you can use them to change the actual issue.
You missed reason 0:
Microsoft managed to make sure “a PC” almost exclusively means “A computer [with Windows]”.
And they have spent a lot of effort for litterally decades to make sure most machines are as difficult as possible to use with anything but Windows.
also in most cases it’s simply the default.
Look if you’ve spent any time whatsoever interacting with clients, customers, whatever when it comes to development work for literally whatever be it software or web or mobile applications at the end of the day they all want the same thing. They want it to just work. Right out of the box, to simply work. The majority of people DO NOT want to customize their PC or online experience, they don’t want to tinker, hell these days they don’t even want to download an exe off a site - if it’s not in some kind of app store, it ain’t getting installed. They all want a thing to just work.
Windows, like it or not, provides that. They don’t want to use Linux, they don’t want to potentially have to open a terminal and type out some simple commands. Most of these people have never even opened a cmd prompt or powershell in windows in like…ever. A good chunk of people using windows don’t even know terminals exist.
I use linux, I use different distros, and I don’t blame anyone who refuses to make the transition even though they aren’t exactly enjoying their windows experience. They deal with it. Let them complain. A lot of people simply don’t have the time or even the interest to learn a new piece of tech and again I don’t blame them.
Can Linux also “just work”? sure, it can potentially but lets not kid ourselves here and lets REALLY be honest with each other. It’s not going to “just work” like Windows, for the vast majority of people, does.
For my totally tech illiterate wife, the solution was NixOS and GNOME. She struggled so bad with Windows ways of things and its UI, and how slow it was. Installed Nix and no more screaming, she does her spreadsheets for work, zoom calls and email.
Excellent points but I would argue that for the majority of users, Mint does indeed just work right out of the box. Everything that most people would need is already there.
“They use Windows because they are used to Windows” is not an argument but a cop out.
“They know Windows better because they use Windows” is not an argument because… guess what… people can learn. That’s how they got their (probably very basic) knowledge of Windows in the first place.
Paid and externally supported Linux/Foss exists. Choosing Windows instead because that’s somehow magically the only one with support available is just a recursion to #1.
If you want to talk facts however, start with money spend on lobbying, on pushing it on education early, on forcing people to buy their hardware with Windows pre-installed etc…
For some of those there are good Linux/FOSS alternatives, but for some there aren’t. I, for example, cannot switch my work macbook for a Linux machine. It’s simply not possible because of the software I need. My desktop at home does run Linux though, because there I don’t have the same hurdles.
Because a lot of people don’t actually care. Yea, they’re more comfortable with Windows but in the end, all they need is a browser. Why do you think chromebooks sell so well?
I know that people hated every single one since Windows 98SE… it’s basically a constant cycle of releasing shit, then keeping it relevant -mostly via forcing people to buy it with their PC- long enough that people resignate and believe tech has to be that bad, then forcing the next and even worse version on people. So which were those unanimously hated versions. Or -maybe easier- which version was widelys adopted before people had no choice because all support for older ones was cut?
And that is some kind of law of nature? Or the result of paying massive amounts of money to flood everything with this shit for free? Seriously… I think you competely misjudge the majority of users. They are not so much clinging to the familiar as just lazily sticking to whatever pops up when they press the power button.
They do? I have seen one chromebook in real life. Which I would probably not have noticed between all the other laptops and tablets if it wasn’t for the fact that this was the most overpriced piece of shit constantly having issues with even the most basic stuff.
(Edit/PS: I just did a quick search and most numbers I found point to chromebooks being more rare than Linux. Which is an achievement given that barely any piece of basic consumer laptop/tablet/whatever comes pre-installed with Linux.)
But I know the sales internationally were declining for quite some time until they spend a lot of money to bribe governments to hand them out as the tech version of a gateway drug.
So for example at the moment increases in chromebook sales in the last years are mainly caused by government procurements in Asia. Japan alone saw sales increase by a factor of 20 in 2024… so I really, really doubt anyone actually wanted a chromebook. But this will probably change after the next generation of students conditioned to think that this shit is how it’s supposed to be enters the market. *sigh*
Most people have literally never heard of Linux.
Or because work requires us to
That sounds more like forced than willing to me.
It’s the de facto standard for many reasons, none of them being individuals’ choices. Microsoft paid and pushed for Windows to become the default OS on pretty much all OEM hardware, they lobbied super hard to push people into using Office, they gave massive discounts on licences for corporations, big and small companies.
It has nothing to do with individual choices, it created the problem you mentioned in your comment though. People just became complacent and ignorant because of that, not the other way around.
True, that’s why I said they were brainwashed
Because what’s the alternative? Pay $1k+ for a disposable MacBook or suffer through making Linux work.
Don’t forget about the disposable laptops with Windows 10 that are no longer supported because Windows 11 doesn’t like their TPM or CPU!
Forget about TPM or CPU, Apple just stops supporting devices for no reason other than they’re old. If they even manage to survive that long.
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Brother LOL I don’t understand why you’re telling me this when you’re the one talking about TPM and CPU. Of course they don’t. I’m just pointing out why many many people choose to use Windows instead of Mac.
We weren’t talking about phones. But since we are now, software support is meaningless when the hardware is completely irreparable.
So Microsoft and Google do the same stuff as Apple, but for some reason Apple’s the only one guilty of planned obsolescence?
BTW I mentioned phones because you said “devices”
They don’t. Not even close.
Who told you that?
Microsoft’s own Surface devices are among the least repairable on the planet. And Google has a browser and search monopoly, and almost all of their hardware is disposable once they get bored with it.
Sounds like someone who wants to hang onto their horse because it just works, but the mess that horses create on the road way affect everyone.
More like slaughtering a perfectly healthy horse when all it needs is new horseshoes.
My 7 year old penguin can lap most peoples horses.
Why would i want to use a new horse that comes crippled, always watches me, supports genocide, keeps putting the saddle back on that I keep telling it I don’t want to use, prevents me from riding it the way i want, and tells me my horse and assless chaps are no good every few years?
Yep, that’s the brainwashing!
What do you mean “Making Linux work?”
Take a look where you are
I’m at home. Where are you?
I mean yeah the comment was pretty fair but what did you except saying “Linux doesn’t work” in !linux@programming.dev
I didn’t say that.
The only real options for the average user are Mac or Windows. Linux just isn’t as user friendly, and a lot of the customization and flexibility of Linux is actually a determinant for non technical people.
I’m a technical person and I can’t stand Linux as a main driver. Love it for development and as a server, but it can be very janky for UI things.
I used windows out of concern that my university may use an application unavailable on Linux (I’m an electrical engineering major) I shouldn’t have been since even if there isn’t, I could always use bottles/wine to get the .exe file.
That’s fair. I’ve noticed that Wine’s support of non-game software can be hit or miss depending on what it is.
I’d say your case is more necessity than willingness.