I installed Opera and used it exclusively.
Why do people use Opera? It’s a proprietary Chrome fork owned by a Chinese company.
Perhaps for old time’s sake. It used to be using its own engine.
Yep. People have a bad habit of sticking to their habits beyond the point of usefulness. Myself included.
Chrome opera doesnt even resemble old opera. Vivadli is closer, and is led by the same guy that led old opera.
Unfortunately still closed source
There was a lot of BS advertising not long ago about it being a web browser “for gamers”, whatever that means.
they still sponsors lots of youtubers and marketing now is on tab grouping (available on most browsers), theming (which is weaker than vivaldi, and maybe zen too) and ai (all browsers can open a web chat app). but they market to people who are using edge or chrome by default, and to them, it looks fancy.
i enjoy being spyed on by china. and before the whataboutisim, i dont mind that the US or Canada spies on me.
You can also be spied on by me if you’d like to.
Just send your search queries to me.
For extra espionage, I’ll even make sure to use non-privacy respecting search engines (like Google, Yandex, Baidu) and AI for your queries.
Sounds good.
I like when they watch.
ohhh my ;)
There is a good chance that this guy is a bit counter-cultural and does not want to use the obvious version of anything.
Look at the Windows mail client he tried to go with.
I love Vivaldi, which is like a spiritual improvement on Opera. I switched a few years back, and once you get used to the UI and the key shortcuts it’s just such a breeze using the internet. Magnificently customizable, very nice little extras. ALAS! Because Vivaldi is based on Opera which is based on Chromium and Google came out and started blocking or restricting addons (the implementation of Manifest v3 blocks a lot of API block requests that ad blockers rely on), I went back to Firefox. Because fuck that.
“Why do people willingly use Windows?”
Because they are brainwashed into thinking it’s the easiest platform, and that any problems they encounter are because that’s just how computers are.
Sigh, please stop using that argument, it is an easy cop out, and you don’t actually help your cause by analyzing the real issue.
The real reason why people willingly use Windows is multifaceted and can be boiled down to a few points.
- It is the defacto standard. If you are going to use a desktop/laptop computer you will probably use Windows, especially at work.
- Most users know Windows in some capacity, this means that companies have an easier time finding staff than if they used something else, it wouldn’t be impossible but it would mean spending more time and money training the staff and causing them to be less productive for longer as they learn the system. This is slowly changing with the rise of web apps, chromebooks and Macs. But still, having IT support a fleet of Linux desktops/laptops when working in a non IT sector would be increadibly wasteful
- Software, like it or not, Windows has a huge amount of proprietary software dominance, organizations LOVE proprietary software and dislike FOSS for one reason. Liability. This means that they get a number to call, email to contact, a person to yell at, they can deflect complaints and seem like they are a strong decisive company by taking legal action against an external party, and not have the buck stop with themselves.
I am an IT technician, this is what I have seen in the corporate world.
By talking about “brainwashing” you remove most of the actual information that could help you figure out how Linux could be better suited for the masses, and to be frank, using a word like “brainwashing” makes the Linux community seem a bit unhinged/cultish.
Focus on facts, then you can use them to change the actual issue.
You missed reason 0:
- It is the default. Almost all computers today come with Windows. If someone clearly unknowledgeavle were to ask the salespeople in any PC store, they’d say some variation of “just use Windows”.
Microsoft managed to make sure “a PC” almost exclusively means “A computer [with Windows]”.
And they have spent a lot of effort for litterally decades to make sure most machines are as difficult as possible to use with anything but Windows.
also in most cases it’s simply the default.
Look if you’ve spent any time whatsoever interacting with clients, customers, whatever when it comes to development work for literally whatever be it software or web or mobile applications at the end of the day they all want the same thing. They want it to just work. Right out of the box, to simply work. The majority of people DO NOT want to customize their PC or online experience, they don’t want to tinker, hell these days they don’t even want to download an exe off a site - if it’s not in some kind of app store, it ain’t getting installed. They all want a thing to just work.
Windows, like it or not, provides that. They don’t want to use Linux, they don’t want to potentially have to open a terminal and type out some simple commands. Most of these people have never even opened a cmd prompt or powershell in windows in like…ever. A good chunk of people using windows don’t even know terminals exist.
I use linux, I use different distros, and I don’t blame anyone who refuses to make the transition even though they aren’t exactly enjoying their windows experience. They deal with it. Let them complain. A lot of people simply don’t have the time or even the interest to learn a new piece of tech and again I don’t blame them.
Can Linux also “just work”? sure, it can potentially but lets not kid ourselves here and lets REALLY be honest with each other. It’s not going to “just work” like Windows, for the vast majority of people, does.
For my totally tech illiterate wife, the solution was NixOS and GNOME. She struggled so bad with Windows ways of things and its UI, and how slow it was. Installed Nix and no more screaming, she does her spreadsheets for work, zoom calls and email.
Excellent points but I would argue that for the majority of users, Mint does indeed just work right out of the box. Everything that most people would need is already there.
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“They use Windows because they are used to Windows” is not an argument but a cop out.
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“They know Windows better because they use Windows” is not an argument because… guess what… people can learn. That’s how they got their (probably very basic) knowledge of Windows in the first place.
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Paid and externally supported Linux/Foss exists. Choosing Windows instead because that’s somehow magically the only one with support available is just a recursion to #1.
If you want to talk facts however, start with money spend on lobbying, on pushing it on education early, on forcing people to buy their hardware with Windows pre-installed etc…
- People usually do prefer the comfort of familiarity. That’s not a cop out. That’s just how most people work. Why do you think the most unanimously hated windows versions were the ones that changed the most? Why do you think the basic design of macOS hasn’t changed at all in more than two decades? People like what they’re used to. And a lot of them are used to Windows and have been for decades.
- While yes, they can learn, a lot have acquired their (probably indeed very basic) knowledge of windows over the duration of 20+ years. It’s quite a jump to suddenly change that. It’s possible to learn, of course but it’s also necessary to lean and most people aren’t willing to do that if what they have works well enough.
- This does indeed come back to people prefer what they’re used to. Of course that also goes for available software. People are used to Microsoft Office, Acrobat Reader, Outlook, the Creative Cloud, etc.
For some of those there are good Linux/FOSS alternatives, but for some there aren’t. I, for example, cannot switch my work macbook for a Linux machine. It’s simply not possible because of the software I need. My desktop at home does run Linux though, because there I don’t have the same hurdles. - That is indeed a big part that deserves more focus. A mainstream PC manufacturer (like Lenovo, Dell, HP, Acer, etc.) shipping a line of devices with Linux instead of Windows, especially if they pass the licensing savings on to the customers might do a lot for Linux adoption, similar to what, for example, the Steam deck did.
Because a lot of people don’t actually care. Yea, they’re more comfortable with Windows but in the end, all they need is a browser. Why do you think chromebooks sell so well?
Why do you think the most unanimously hated windows versions
I know that people hated every single one since Windows 98SE… it’s basically a constant cycle of releasing shit, then keeping it relevant -mostly via forcing people to buy it with their PC- long enough that people resignate and believe tech has to be that bad, then forcing the next and even worse version on people. So which were those unanimously hated versions. Or -maybe easier- which version was widelys adopted before people had no choice because all support for older ones was cut?
People are used to Microsoft Office, Acrobat Reader, Outlook, the Creative Cloud, etc.
And that is some kind of law of nature? Or the result of paying massive amounts of money to flood everything with this shit for free? Seriously… I think you competely misjudge the majority of users. They are not so much clinging to the familiar as just lazily sticking to whatever pops up when they press the power button.
Why do you think chromebooks sell so well?
They do? I have seen one chromebook in real life. Which I would probably not have noticed between all the other laptops and tablets if it wasn’t for the fact that this was the most overpriced piece of shit constantly having issues with even the most basic stuff.
(Edit/PS: I just did a quick search and most numbers I found point to chromebooks being more rare than Linux. Which is an achievement given that barely any piece of basic consumer laptop/tablet/whatever comes pre-installed with Linux.)
But I know the sales internationally were declining for quite some time until they spend a lot of money to bribe governments to hand them out as the tech version of a gateway drug.
So for example at the moment increases in chromebook sales in the last years are mainly caused by government procurements in Asia. Japan alone saw sales increase by a factor of 20 in 2024… so I really, really doubt anyone actually wanted a chromebook. But this will probably change after the next generation of students conditioned to think that this shit is how it’s supposed to be enters the market. *sigh*
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Most people have literally never heard of Linux.
Or because work requires us to
That sounds more like forced than willing to me.
It’s the de facto standard for many reasons, none of them being individuals’ choices. Microsoft paid and pushed for Windows to become the default OS on pretty much all OEM hardware, they lobbied super hard to push people into using Office, they gave massive discounts on licences for corporations, big and small companies.
It has nothing to do with individual choices, it created the problem you mentioned in your comment though. People just became complacent and ignorant because of that, not the other way around.
True, that’s why I said they were brainwashed
Because what’s the alternative? Pay $1k+ for a disposable MacBook or suffer through making Linux work.
Don’t forget about the disposable laptops with Windows 10 that are no longer supported because Windows 11 doesn’t like their TPM or CPU!
Forget about TPM or CPU, Apple just stops supporting devices for no reason other than they’re old. If they even manage to survive that long.
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Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Brother LOL I don’t understand why you’re telling me this when you’re the one talking about TPM and CPU. Of course they don’t. I’m just pointing out why many many people choose to use Windows instead of Mac.
That said, Apple supports their phones longer than anyone else has to date.
We weren’t talking about phones. But since we are now, software support is meaningless when the hardware is completely irreparable.
So Microsoft and Google do the same stuff as Apple, but for some reason Apple’s the only one guilty of planned obsolescence?
BTW I mentioned phones because you said “devices”
So Microsoft and Google do the same stuff as Apple
They don’t. Not even close.
for some reason Apple’s the only one guilty of planned obsolescence?
Who told you that?
Sounds like someone who wants to hang onto their horse because it just works, but the mess that horses create on the road way affect everyone.
More like slaughtering a perfectly healthy horse when all it needs is new horseshoes.
My 7 year old penguin can lap most peoples horses.
Why would i want to use a new horse that comes crippled, always watches me, supports genocide, keeps putting the saddle back on that I keep telling it I don’t want to use, prevents me from riding it the way i want, and tells me my horse and assless chaps are no good every few years?
Yep, that’s the brainwashing!
What do you mean “Making Linux work?”
Take a look where you are
I’m at home. Where are you?
I mean yeah the comment was pretty fair but what did you except saying “Linux doesn’t work” in !linux@programming.dev
I didn’t say that.
The only real options for the average user are Mac or Windows. Linux just isn’t as user friendly, and a lot of the customization and flexibility of Linux is actually a determinant for non technical people.
I’m a technical person and I can’t stand Linux as a main driver. Love it for development and as a server, but it can be very janky for UI things.
I used windows out of concern that my university may use an application unavailable on Linux (I’m an electrical engineering major) I shouldn’t have been since even if there isn’t, I could always use bottles/wine to get the .exe file.
That’s fair. I’ve noticed that Wine’s support of non-game software can be hit or miss depending on what it is.
I’d say your case is more necessity than willingness.
#8 reawakened my nervousness about the lack of virus protection on Linux. With every milestone we celebrate it becomes more likely that malicious people target desktop Linux with their malware, and I don’t think the “Linux is inherently secure” mentality helps. I hope clamav’s on access scanner is fixed and improved so it becomes commonplace before there’s some big newsworthy scandal.
People were saying the exact same thing when I first started using Linux in 1999-ish
What is survivorship bias aka gambler’s fallacy?
I’m not saying Linux is immune, just that people have said that, practically word-for-word, forever.
“I have never been hacked before. Why would it start happening now?”
No one said that though. What was said was that as more people use Linux we will see more malware. And they’ve been saying that forever.
Here is an article talking about it from 2003 https://www.theregister.com/2003/10/06/linux_vs_windows_viruses/
If I knew how to search Usenet these days I’m sure I could find something from the 90s
It’s not untrue, actually, is common sense that there will be more malware, but it implies Linux’s only advantage is security through obscurity.
People have been worrying Linux is going basically become Windows over the next couple of years for 2-3 decades now. Malware is a serious problem that Linux users should take precautions from, but it seems clear by now that what security advantages it has aren’t based on obscurity.
Granular permissioned access for apps from trusted supply chains is better than attempting deny lists based on signatures (AV).
I still use it, but I put way more effort into SLSA, securing containers, flatpaks, and limiting their blow back. From there its keeping up with CVEs in ways that do not create more or break functionality.
I will say A LOT of the Linux software ecosystem is was more secure than Window’s default.
I don’t think a Linux anti virus program would be such a big security win. Phishing is the biggest security threat to most users, and no amount of software can prevent that.
Sure, downloading and running random shit is a concern, but people in that group are a bit of a lost cause. The best solution for that is to harden the OS, prevent running executables through the GUI, or from user folders (I think SELinux could do that), disable sudo on the user account, and only allow installing Flatpaks. The security of Flathub may not be perfect, but it’s a smaller attack surface than the whole internet.
But even if you do that, an Indian call center scam is still going to manipulate your grandma into buying Amazon gift cards, so… It’s a lost cause.
… but people in that group are a bit of a lost cause.
touche. I don’t think the existence of other threats is a reason to dismiss this one. And I don’t think simply prohibiting running random executables is sufficient as it isn’t ‘most users’ who are switching to Linux. The people likely to switch to Linux are also the people likely to want to run programs that aren’t yet distributed in repos. I can imagine a scenario where the malware is hidden in a program hosted on a custom flatpak repo and requires permissions for normal operation that’d make flatseal ineffective for stopping the malware.
The ideal anti-virus in my mind would ignore programs installed from official repos and on access scan ones installed from anywhere else. It’d also keep track of critical vulnerabilities to give you a heads up about updating your system.
Is there antivirus for Android? I mean there surely is, but Android does not really need it because it’s built from scratch to give each app as little permissions as possible*. Desktop Linux is going in the same direction.
* technically. This does not mean that Android is secure in terms of privacy.
Is there antivirus for Android?
Yes there is a Google Play Protect. There is also a service that checks every single App on the Store separately.
Though the effectivity is debatable.
There are third party ones but I have not heard anything good about any of them. I am not sure they are legitimate
Yes there is a Google Play Protect.
AFAICS this screens software before it goes into the store, or screens sideloaded apps on device before installation. That’s still far from antivirus as Windows users know it.
In theory it does all of below:
- App Scanning: It automatically scans all apps on your device—regardless of where they were downloaded (though it focuses heavily on apps from the Google Play Store and those sideloaded).
- Real-time Protection: It runs safety checks on apps before you download them from the Play Store.
- Periodic Device Scan: It periodically scans your device for Potentially Harmful Applications (PHAs), which are sometimes called malware.
- Warnings and Removal: If it finds a potentially harmful app, it will warn you, disable the app, or in some cases, remove the app automatically.
Yes, and it’s better. Each app gets scanned before it even reaches your device. You can’t do that on a PC.
The Linux desktop is not really going in the same direction as Android
Not that “antivirus” software any more or less useful. It is mostly snake oil.
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I’m not sure if you’ve spent much the in the industry but it kind of is
For sure. I recall installing an open source mahjong from the android google store when I bought my first ever android device about a decade ago. Instantly took over my tablet and kept throwing ads at me. And it got into the root and wouldn’t go away when doing a reinstall. Fortunately it was a super cheap tablet that I only got to toy around with. But I have had no interest in ever getting another android device since then.
You are talking about a decade ago, you should try modern android.
The OS changed soo much from that day
Why are we shouting?
Anyway, don’t waste your time with “antivirus” software. That is not how you secure a system.
Your viewer must be parsing
#8as# 8.You’re free to not ‘waste time’ with anti-virus but I prefer the peace of mind.
You need to put a backslash before the hash tag. In Markdown a # is a headet
No? There needs to be a space between on piefed and that’s how it works on github too.
That is not how you secure a system.
Yes, but projects like Wayland which are trying to do this get shouted down.
I was almost sure Wayland had succeeded… Well except for people still stuck on Xorg because of accessibility features…
AV is a joke. Best thing is ephemerality. No persistence
Immutable, ephemerable, granularly permissioned, and encrypt EVERYTHING to enforce said permissions.
1000x better than software signature hunting
You lost me at the encryption part. How does encrypting enforce permissions?
Enforces confidentiality and integrity.
Encryption on transports protects from man in the middle and sniffing. At rest protects evil maid exploits, which for these systems is more about preventing malicious software being swapped in place of trusted software.
The same applies to encryption of links like pcie and memory with the time of transport and rest changing.
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There is virus protection for Linux if you really want it (both free and paid).
They’re either targeting businesses (so obscene prices) or clamav, which is buggy
Whoever put autoplaying video with sound on that website should be executed.
The click bait headline was a clue.
you can and should globally disable autoplay in your browser settings
Me in an alternate timeline where Linux is proprietary and the defacto OS on the majority of computers:
I’m sure there’s a gazillion “I tried Linux for a week” articles, and I really like that they turned this one around.
But it has little substance.
He tells us how to add a user in Linux, but “with Windows 11, I pretty much had to sell my soul, do a backflip, promise to kneel at the foot of Microsoft, and learn to fly. OK, that’s what it felt like.” That’s all. I’d have expected technical detail here. The other points aren’t much better imho.
That said they’re 100% correct on some points, and kinda correct on most others, e.g.: accidentally installing borderline malware through the Windows store is still Windows’ fault, if indirectly.
Yeah, kinda disappointing how superficial this article is
I would love some more details as well about why they found it so difficult. I tried it myself just now without really knowing how to, and it was pretty easy. You either find the option by searching, or go to Settings -> Accounts -> Other Users -> Add account.
They do try getting you to add a Microsoft account first and you have to choose “I don’t have this person’s sign-in information” and “Add a user without a Microsoft account” which is the only other option than Cancel at that point to continue, then you set the username and password and you’re done. To be clear, it would be better if they immediately gave you a clear option between local user and Microsoft account, but I would hardly call it selling your soul and whatnot.
But Microsoft for sure deserve most of the complaints they’re getting and it’s only getting worse.
I totally misread the title 😭
That is a very deceptive title. These are problems he noticed in Windows 11, not Linux.On first glance, I understood the title as saying there were nine problems in Win11; it might be ambiguous but I don’t think it’s fair to label it as very deceptive.
It’s barely even ambiguous
It’s a very simple title, not hard to understand. I think this boils down to expectations of the title, for those who misunderstood it.
I ditched A for B, and i found a few problems. Obviously the problems are with B.
That’s how I understood it, but you could read it as saying the author’s experience with Win11 revealed problems with his previous setup (i.e. Linux).
You could, but that’s obviously not the default way those sentences are to be read
The Mailbird issue isn’t really a Windows problem either.
But I’ll totally give him the OneDrive bullshit.
No, but he explained that the problem would have been easier to solve on Linux.
Not sure it would have been for a normal computer user though; I for one know how to SSH on my homeserver, but I don’t know how to do that on my desktop Linux.
It was installed in the Microsoft app store. It’s definitely their problem.
All the packages in the default Debian repos are verified. Malware that covers the screen in ads and locks up the computer (intentionally) would never make it into the Linux repos.
Sure I could see that being a Microsoft problem, but a bad app is not a Windows 11 problem.
That’s like saying nobody should use Linux because of the Shai-Hulud worm.
https://unit42.paloaltonetworks.com/npm-supply-chain-attack/
Shai-Hulud wasn’t installable in the the official repos
“I ditched Linux for Windows 11 for one day - here’s why its not a desktop for people who don’t need the features of linux”
Only nine now? That’s so much better than it used to be!
When I first tried Linux (Mandrake, many years ago), I could probably come up with 9 problems in just the first hour 😆
It’s easy to find nine problems in Windows too, so this is pretty good for a free OS, IMO. It’s great to see Linux gradually become more mainstream (aside from Android and servers)
Edit: I’m a dumbass lol
The 9 problems were in Windows. He’s going from Linux to Windows. Title is a bit easy to misread.
Oops, that’s what I get for being on my phone hours after I should have gone to sleep. I’m an idiot at those hours lol
Skill issue
Indeed. I assumed that was obvious when I wrote it, but thanks for confirming.
This feels like an article for non-tech Linux users who hate Windows and want their bias confirmed.
Ok, that’s what it felt like
To me, it felt like an obvious imitation of the myriad of articles that often have someone try Linux out, shortly, and then – often with obvious not understanding or just a surface level insight – proudly and definitively stating (or, at least, subtextually implying) that Linux was interesting but clearly not ready to be a Real™ operating system, etc.
But it seems most didn’t read it as that, either.
Ah, maybe! I don’t have much experience with those kinds of article. If so, it probably nailed the tone such that I fell for it lmao
Would love to see someone who spent 30 years on Windows spend a week on Linux…oh boy…
We have seen that a lot. It often ends with an article a lot like this.
That said, many, maybe even most Linux users started Windows users first. So, not everyone writes a snarky article and goes back.
I think a Windows user that is adventurous enough to try Linux is more likely to be pragmatic and open minded about it. They can push through basic issues like the ones raised in this article to get to the real experience underneath. Many of them like what they find enough to stick around.
But we get our fair share Linux sucks articles that are not better than this one.
I hate that there is an adverisement for another article every second sentence.
Please just let me read the article in peace and put related stuff below.
HERE IS AN UNSKIPPABLE POPUP TUTORIAL FOR OUR NEW FEATURES! DID YOU KNOW ->>> ->>> ->>>
No you have only 1 problem.
- Ads in an OS
°-°
