Today’s article was just a short one, and engaging in what makes everyone roll their eyes: seeing something happen on Reddit and writing an article about it.
To cut it short:
- Billie Eilish (famous singer) uploaded a picture of her old Nintendo DSi in gallery of images, to her Instagram account
- Someone shared that on Reddit
- Half of the comment section slid straight into shitty gamer dude Hell (the other half did not)
- Some man on Mastodon attacked me
- Post removed from Reddit when moderators spotted the comments
…this is a fast-forward of the oddness, but if you want to read over my ramble here, and see some shittiness, the link will help:
https://gardinerbryant.com/you-dont-look-like-a-gamer/
I see this shit all the time, and it is not only exhausting, but something no one should see (no matter their identity) should be subjected to. Anyway, read on if you’d like!
I grew up hearing that what ever game I enjoyed, “was not a real video game.” And this was IRL, from people I knew and thought as my friends, at the time. If I tried to continue, it turned verbally abusive and my fave games got properly shitted on. So I learned to stay quiet and play only offline games, just play my lil games alone. These days I got real friends who’d like to play with me, but I’m too shy to go online… Like I want to, but just too afraid. It’s really fucking dumb.
Fyi I am your friend and I support your personal, self found flavour of games 🤙🏾
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also, wtf is this new “larping” business?
I fucking hate how people throw this word larping around. Like there’s only ‘real gamers’ who can be ‘true gamers’, and if someone doesn’t use a device like them…they’re role-playing? So weird. SO weird. And cringe, too.
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It’s fascism . Some are not aware it.
I am extremely aware if it, so I don’t entertain it.
Maybe by ‘true gamer’ they mean someone whose identity is defined by gaming? Not for me to say whether or not that’s healthy, but it’s certainly extreme. And then going further to link this identity to gender is just weird. I mean, who cares? We’re all just text on the internet to each other, what difference does gender or sexuality or race etc make to gaming? Unless it’s a game that explores those themes, it shouldn’t, but here we are.
As someone who would admit to their identity being shaped by video games: I also play the Sims a lot, which (in the eyes of your typical gamer bro) isn’t a real game
This guy had a great analysis video, complete with interviews with victims, of toxicity towards female entry into male spaces. He goes historically into how video games were first age-neutral, then Nintendo made them “toys”, and toys were for boys, slowly leading to the space having a toxic exclusivity problem.
One of the best bits (which I unfortunately don’t have a timestamp for right now) is when he talks about his own experience as a kid, and how he inadvertently tried to exclude a family member when she started playing the game better than him.
how he inadvertently tried to exclude a family member when she started playing the game better than him.
Yep, that is a big part of the reason. There was a study where they showed: the top players weren’t as misogynistic as the bottom players when a woman played with them. So the conclusion is that to a lot of people they are really fragile and lash out because they aren’t as good as they like to be and fear losing ‘status’ if women would join our hobby.
Sadly I can’t find the study at the moment.
Thanks for sharing this! It’s good to also hear men bring these issues up.
Years of playing multiplayer have taught me why girls play muted. And I do what I can but often that’s just getting some sweaty dude at the bottom of the leaderboard banned. It’s so often the same ones that are silent until the match is over and they’re blaming everyone but themselves.
You know, growing up I always thought it was super odd for the ‘gamer guys’ I knew to talk about gaming as a hobby that boys and men are into by default and girls, and especially women, just wouldn’t understand.
They mentioned or assumed it so casually in all kinds of contexts, as if it was just a fact about the world everyone knew or agreed upon.
Meanwhile, most of my girl (and later, women) friends played games. And not just the type of games the guys would look down upon, like mobile games, but established major gaming franchises like Final Fantasy, SimCity or Legend of Zelda. They wrote fan-fiction about Sephiroth, they snuck their little DS lite under the school desk to finish a section of Majora’s Mask, or they spent weeks at a time meticulously crafting a storyboard in Sims 2. I never understood why the cultural image of gaming at the same time only included guys and maaybe one pick-me-esque ‘gamer girl’, when most girls and women around me actually were super into some games.
I eventually realised that these ‘gamer guys’ just never interacted with the girls I knew. Their entire world view came from the internet, from movies and other cultural sources. That was an eye-opener.
It makes me angry and sad to see games with a traditionally female userbase, such as The Sims, to be lumped into ‘casual’ genres, when I never knew a single Sims player who had a casual relationship with that game. They were typically much more intense about these games and fandoms than your average male FIFA/Call of Duty/Battlefield players, but the latter count as ‘real gamers’. It’s really just misogyny.
It has been a strange and long ride for me in gaming, one of my fondest early memories of gaming is playing coop Diablo 1 on a PS1 late at night with (the horror) a girl.
Then we had a healthy CSGO server with several women/girls who played with us. One of them married one of the lads.
WoW was nearly half populated by women from the start. Two of the women I raided with married blokes they met in our raids.
Yet somehow the myth that women don’t game has persisted.
It’s almost like the people who believe that are so hostile to women that any women in online spaces will avoid outing themselves to avoid the inevitable harassment.
It makes me angry and sad to see games with a traditionally female userbase, such as The Sims, to be lumped into ‘casual’ genres, when I never knew a single Sims player who had a casual relationship with that game. They were typically much more intense about these games and fandoms than your average male FIFA/Call of Duty/Battlefield players, but the latter count as ‘real gamers’.
This is a really good point and it makes me realize that “casual” as a genre translates pretty well to “games stereotyped towards women”. I’d go as far as to say most modern video games can be played casually, but if we actually put the bar at games that aren’t intended to be played otherwise we’re looking at freecell.
Growing up, that whole stereotype was actually accurate in my class at least, which of course caused me to also believe it was this way until later in life. Girls here would at most play sims. Most boys would play various iterations of Need for Speed, Runescape and Counter Strike (1.6 of course), with the nerdier ones (me included) playing a bunch of other things too. Pretty much every boy played something.
I’ve since gotten to know several gamer girls, but literally all of them from other towns in my later life, none from my old school days. Which makes me think there was some localized girl gamer shaming going on, but I’m not sure it was from the boys in this case, it always felt like some of the more popular girls in school saw gaming as something infantile and therefore their clique just didn’t do it, or didn’t talk about it. Wouldn’t be surprised if some of the more quiet girls played a bunch of vidya and just never talked about it though.
Perhaps they just did not share their hobbies and interests with you at the time. Were any of them actually close friends with you?
None of the girls and women I know who are into gaming are really ‘obvious’ about it to strangers, partly because of the stigma and the resulting interactions you’d get, and partly because there just isn’t too much to talk about that you can’t already talk about online in your communities. Especially if most reactions to your gaming hobby you’d get from boys would be ridicule, weird creepiness and/or condescension. We usually kept it to ourselves.
Besides, if they played games like The Sims, it’s pretty obvious they were really into gaming. Sims is an incredibly complex and time-consuming hobby for most people – modding, worldbuilding projects, family legacies that take hundreds of hours of playtime. I know not a single Sims-playing woman who is not at least temporarily obsessed with that game, hasn’t modded it to shreds and hasn’t spent a three-digit amount of money on its expansions.
I’d say that the average Need for Speed gamer is a much more casual gamer than a Sims player. But because the latter are mostly women, we were treated with the same condescending “it’s a kid’s toy” type attitude boys actually thought we had toward their games.
Yeah the Sims is a game that the older I get the more I see it as serious gaming. The people who were into it were so much more into it than the people who played standard fpses were. And people of all genders were playing shit like bioshock and skyrim when I was in high school.
The only reason the Sims isn’t treated as a serious game is because it was significantly more popular with girls than boys.
Were any of them actually close friends with you?
Only a few of the more quiet ones, since I was the unpopular nerdy bullied guy the rest of them didn’t really want to be seen talking to. Later on as my bully dropped out in 8th grade, I gained a lot of confidence and got closer to the others too.
None of the girls and women I know who are into gaming are really ‘obvious’ about it to strangers, partly because of the stigma and the resulting interactions you’d get, and partly because there just isn’t too much to talk about that you can’t already talk about online in your communities. Especially if most reactions to your gaming hobby you’d get from boys would be ridicule, weird creepiness and/or condescension. We usually kept it to ourselves.
I mean yes, that’s all true, stigma and all, I’m just saying that over here in particular, it was mostly the girls who’d ridicule gaming as a childish hobby (especially if you played Runescape which was seen as particularly childish for some reason), which I’ve since found out is not common everywhere (and in fact of the people I know who still play Runescape, half are women. They’re just all from other towns/cities).
Besides, if they played games like The Sims, it’s pretty obvious they were really into gaming. Sims is an incredibly complex and time-consuming hobby for most people – modding, worldbuilding projects, family legacies that take hundreds of hours of playtime.
I wouldn’t say it’s that obvious. I know plenty who have played it very casually, but not many who have gotten that deep into it. It was like one of the default games everyone dabbled in as a kid. And yes, I know you can spend thousands of hours in it. I’ve got a couple hundred in it myself over the years (have played 1, 3, 4 and Medieval). I would doubt most got that deep into it back then. For one, that would require understanding the language the game was in, which most didn’t. Like 5 kids out of 25 in our class understood the language. I sometimes made money doing important Runescape quests (like Lost City or Monkey Madness to unlock dragon longsword and dragon scimmy) for others because they couldn’t do it themselves.
hasn’t spent a three-digit amount of money on its expansions.
I on the other hand don’t think I know anyone who’s spent a cent on it. Estonia wasn’t particularly rich in the mid 00s, so we pirated games. If you didn’t know how to, you knew someone else who did. Most kids had older siblings or friends who’d help. This has carried on. I’ve bought many games over the years now, but never The Sims. Always pirated that.
Now it’s CoD bros thinking anything else isn’t real gaming.
ok forgive me for being old but they’re saying “larp larp larp” like they’re saying she’s “Live Action Role Playing” being a “gamer” cause she took a photo of her old DS? am I right on that one?
Misery loves company.
Whenever I see stuff like this online that’s the first thing I think of. These people are all miserable, depressed, and alone. The most basic and simplistic forms of joy from others sends them into a “woe is me” rage. They then MUST ensure said person or whomever defends said person be brought down into the same misery hole they dug for themselves.
And you can’t just say “oh just ignore them” I’m sorry but no, you can’t. I’m sure OP has tried taking that route several times but again these peoples entire lot in life is to ensure you become as miserable as they do. so you can’t ignore them.
So what do you do? you keep living your life. Enjoy whatever the ever living fuck you want to enjoy, post about it online, let the miserable cunts try to knock you down, post more. post A LOT more. infuriate them, let them attack you. respond to their posts with a simple “k.” or “cool story, bro” or “thank you for the feedback!” kell em with kindness or just an out right virtual pat on the head. “great post champ!” all that. Show them that you’re happier then they are and will ever be.
ok forgive me for being old but they’re saying “larp larp larp” like they’re saying she’s “Live Action Role Playing” being a “gamer” cause she took a photo of her old DS? am I right on that one?
My favorite bit is how Billie somehow ‘larped’ so hard she managed to invent time travel, went back to when she was a kid, took a selfie of herself with that DSi, used it as the image on the screen…then went back to now
I fucking hate this ‘larp’ shit, it is so, so, so tiring to see in these communities. I figure it has to be kids.
I think the trick for that sort of thing is rather than trying to circumvent or silence those voices, you just gotta ignore them until they eventually snowball into cringe lol
Kind of like how it used to be considered cool to dunk on people for being religious online, but now it’s pretty much the opposite
Good read! Thanks for sharing your work.
The comment section (in part) quickly becomes less about the device or shared memories, and more about performance: who is “allowed” to be associated with gaming culture, and on what terms.
Yuck, disgusting reddit behaviour.
I’m glad to report that my experience here in the fediverse has been quite plesant as wimmin folk with an interest in discussing games. ! I have to give a shoutout to my favourite comm !soulslike@lemmy.zip and our wonderful
overlordmod @v4ld1z@lemmy.zip and the folks over at the community for creating a cool and welcoming environment for everyone.Thank you so much for the shout-out - means a lot to me. Trying my best 💜
I’m quite surprised that in all the time moderating the community, I’ve barely, if at all, had to remove comments or posts due to toxicity of any kind, let alone misogyny or other forms of sexual discrimination. And that’s quite telling for a video game genre that’s so full of elitist #Gamers™ who bombard you with toxicity for playing a game a “wrong” way or having a different opinion about which game occupies which spot in an arbitrary ranking. Although, these issues primarily accompany reddit’s toxic neckbeard community, which we’re rid of for the most part
I fucking hate dudes like this. I’m someone who has “nerdy” interests and such and naturally they tend to be male dominated because people keep gatekeeping and being misogynistic for no reason. I’d love to have to partner with similar interests in this regard but it’s made harder by the fact that the men in the spaces are the way they are and it’s hard to engage in that way without making the person uncomfortable because there’s a precedent for all sorts of weird behavior. And then these same incels complain they are unsuccessful, well please stop ruining it for the rest of us as well. Even in a non dating context having a more diverse hobby means a more diverse experience.
Growing up, PCs and video games were very much a boys thing and every time I saw someone outed as a girl/woman playing games, I was like “Nice! A unicorn!”.
And every time they played better than me, I was like “Wow, that’s amazing! Carry me, mommy!”So my toxicity went the other way, as in too enthusiastic. Or a simp as some might call it. “Don’t be mean to this rare, mythical creature or she might run away!”
Now that I’m older, I’ve been tempered somewhat. No longer do i simp biasedly. I can yell out both “Carry me, mommy/daddy!” shamelessly.
I think the telling thing is that these angry gamer dudes are awfully lonely and would kill to have a girlfriend who shared at least some of their interests.
This kind of self-face punching comes from such a low self esteem that they have to reject the idea for fear of rejection in reality.
And then they go looking for every other reason to explain their loneliness epidemic.
Yeah, it’s not a clever or new observation to point out that the men who are mad they can’t meet women are the same ones who make being a woman in nerdy spaces suck, especially online gaming (but also plenty of irl spaces, my ex was a female magic the gathering judge and oh boy did she get treated poorly). But it is something still worth mentioning.
This also gets worse when genuinely nerdy women are anything other than the equivalent of the worst stereotypes of nerds. When you ask the question why wouldn’t some women of all sorts have been Tolkien heads or been playing ttrpgs since they were teenagers (or have always wanted to try), or been gaming since they were kids, then this behavior gets even more absurd.
If led Zeppelin could be super into Tolkien, why can’t Billie Eilish be a gamer? If Henry Caville can be as nerdy as he is, why can’t a similarly attractive actress be equally nerdy? If some of the guys at the game shop grew into their face and got into working out, why should you assume that that’s not a possible story behind a pretty woman who decides to come in?
Yeah, it’s not a clever or new observation to point out that the men…
Eh, thanks. I mean, that’s a bit of a harsh way to start a reply to a comment you then go on to agree with.
Ope sorry if it came off critical, I meant it in a form of “this has been said many times and yet it continues to bear the repetition that you engaged in and I’m about to”
Ah, my bad, no harm done and thank you for explaining that, it really is appreciated.
I find so much online discourse has become performative contrarianism that I’m probably a little over sensitive to it.
I like this place precisely cause of people like you two!
Totally fair lol, I too can get a little over sensitive to online comments for similar reasons.
This but unironically.
A lot of this behavior is actually outlined in the lesser discussed Fearful-Avoidant aka Disorganized Attachment Style. From my understanding, people with this style of attachment are more likely to lash out even when presented with the ideal safe relationship environment due to past abandonment trauma.
The way I specifically heard it described once is even after a caregiver returns to a child who needs emotional consolement after separation anxiety, unlike the other children who will immediately calm down, the child with a Fearful-Avoidant style will continue to cry, almost as if perceiving the sense of danger or emotional upset as permanent.
Okay I’ve read the article (although probably too fast) and the part where harassment can also be ‘exclusionary humour’ is like. Hit me in the brain.
I am female and visibly so. I use to frequent a local game store before it closed. And while I was mostly welcomed there (father would have raised hell if anything was overt, he knew the owner well) the amount of inside jokes, the “oh you wouldn’t understand”, “it’s fine” when I’d ask what they were talking about was just :<
But at least I meet my husband there. He’s cool. He loves sharing nerdy things with me.
Dickheads like this are the reason I don’t like telling people I play games. People that attempt to put others in boxes are the worst
I too, hate boxes.
I think the only person posing as a gamer is Elon cause he pays people to farm his Diablo account. Everyone else gets a pass no matter what they play or how much they play.
I thought it was PoE he was caught paying to farm. Still a bitch move no matter the game though.
I think it was both.
People on the internet discriminating around the most irrelevant details.
You know what grinds my gears? Tooling doesn’t help. In communities like reddit or lemmy, downvotes mean your content will be more hidden. When a dumb-wagon is formed the good content goes to hell. And people use the downvote as a disagree button. It’s annoying.
If this happens to a celebrity posting about a 20 year old Nintendo game system, I can only imagine what it’s like for your average female logging into modern competitive shooter.
Gamergate never went away. It was the precursor to the youthful fadcisti, in many ways. We need women in these spaces to help diffuse the malignant culture. They’ll remain targets of harassment tho, so it’s up to everyone to police misogyny, and racism for that matter, too.
This shit is just so ridiculous when you step back and look at it. . . Like at toddler play when I was a kid and they gave the boys the toy trucks and gave the girls the dolls. That was in the fuckin early 70s and it was bollocks even then. Video games are for whoever wants to play with them, and so are trucks and dolls.
Thank you for sharing names. Easy blocks and reports. The irony was clearly lost with this guy and his concept of “compassion”.
Must still be practicing.
He said the concept of compassion for a reason though.
