I recognize there is a massive anti incarnation argument (in the US). I agree with many of the points and reasons I’ve heard. That said, murderers, child molesters etcetera are still gonna exist to some degree no matter what. So, without incarnation, what are some options?

  • slazer2au@lemmy.worldEnglish
    38·
    10 days ago

    Prisons more like European prisons that focuses on rehabilitation not isolation. Not slave labour camps the Americans call jails.

      • Paragone@lemmy.worldEnglish
        4·
        10 days ago

        Not all can be rehabilitated: some just are wired THAT different, & butcher people for fun, because that’s the way they’re wired.

        Ignoring that is the making-believing that makes such believers into accessory-to-murder when the not-contained serial-murderer murders yet-another.

        There was a story, maybe a few years ago, a woman who wouldn’t accept that an inmate was really destructive-of-life, she befriended him, & got butchered.

        Leftist got ate by leopards.

        ( it isn’t only the right which demonstrates idiocy! )

        The problem is that categories exist, & our whole system is pretending that it’s a spectrum, instead of distinct-categories, with spectrums … sorta-overlapping … each category.

        Some absolutely need to be permanently segregated from communities.

        & the idiocy of putting people into a criminality-manufacturing-pressure-cooker while gaslighting about that somehow being “corrections”, needs to be terminated.

        Correct the problem-motivation/wrong-mental-function, aversion-therapy may well be part of that, but don’t increase the criminality in them, & do offer them humanness-improvement opportunity & asssitance.

        _ /\ _

        • fizzle@quokk.auEnglish
          19·
          10 days ago

          A focus on rehabilitation doesn’t mean releasing dangerous predators into society. Merely that rehabilitation is the focus, rather than punishment or profit.

          • lennybird@lemmy.worldEnglish
            7·
            10 days ago

            Correct. Some simply require a permanent albeit humane separation from civil society. Anders Breivik is an example of this.

  • SwingingTheLamp@piefed.zipEnglish
    11·
    10 days ago

    In concept, it’s simple: Identify the conditions that lead people into anti-social behaviors, and change those conditions to encourage pro-social behavior instead. That way, not only do we avoid having to incarcerate people, we don’t have victims anymore. This may sound abstract and hand-wavey, so as a concrete example, crime is way, way down compared to the 1970’s, and it seems to have a lot to do with eliminating leaded gasoline, and allowing abortion. A concerted effort to reduce poverty would go a long way to reducing crime rates even further.

    Social influence (culture, social norms, peer pressure, etc.) is the most effective way to keep people in line. Laws do diddly-squat. Most people respond to their life conditions and surroundings, including what people even think of as crime. For a good example, instead of jaywalking, consider speeding. It’s against the law, but socially promoted, so virtually all drivers do it even though it’s against the law. Or, consider a “law-and-order conservative” business owner whose social circle wants to see the heads of the local panhandlers cracked, but happily engages in wage theft from his employees, and whose pastor at church is diddling kids. Simply put, the better alternative to prison is to create and put people in social environments that don’t tolerate crime in the first place.

    Even people who don’t respond to social influence, the sociopaths, can be handled more productively. They still have motivations and needs that, while disconnected from empathy, still guide their behavior. They’re still essentially rational people, too. There’s a program here at the Mendota Mental Health Institute that works to rehabilitate sociopathic people who’ve landed in the criminal justice system. They’ve had good success by identifying what these young men want, and explaining/demonstrating to them (i.e. through their rational faculties) that they can get what they want long-term by learning and following society’s rules. I know a guy who is/was deficient in empathy, and landed in jail, where his therapists helped him exercise and develop his empathy. Smart dude, and now he’s got a productive job where he’s invaluable to the company. The concept is again deceptively simple: As an intelligent man, he learned to consciously ask himself, how would I feel if my actions were instead applied to me? He uses the Golden Rule, essentially.

    Let me flip this around and ask why do we consider prison as an appropriate way to “deal” with murderers, rapists, and child predators? I would point out that the United States has a huge prison population, and murderers, rapists, and child predators. If the threat of prison were an effective deterrent, why is that? (To unload the question, I’ll say that I believe that we practice incarceration as a morality play by which we re-assure ourselves that we are good people compared to the criminal scum. It has nothing whatsoever to do with concern for victims.)

      • disregardable@lemmy.zip
        6·
        10 days ago

        Some people absolutely are born fucked up, but way, way more people are just born into fucked up situations and neglected until they explode.

        "Simply put, the better alternative to prison is to create and put people in social environments that don’t tolerate crime in the first place. " what does that look like in practice, if not prison/execution.

        It looks like early social intervention that helps people succeed without breaking the law. The reason American society is this fucked up is the fallacy that everyone is responsible for themselves. Absolutely none of the rich would be rich without extensive support given to them in every aspect of their lives.

      • Maeve@kbin.earth
        4·
        9 days ago

        Vibes based “feels like” over empirical data based (hard evidence). “It feels like bloodletting is a more effective cure for sepsis than intensive antibiotic treatment.” That’s how that sounds.

        All the time you spend asking questions and disagreeing you could as well spend actually searching, reading, watching videos.

      • SwingingTheLamp@piefed.zipEnglish
        3·
        9 days ago

        Yeah, some people are just born fucked up, and putting them in prison to handle it is a bad way to handle them. What do I mean? Well, when people are born fucked up, it’s usually pretty obvious. A lot of the infamous mass shooters that come to mind, people knew. In some cases, they tried desperately to get somebody to help do something about it.

        But our system (correctly, IMO) operates on the principle of innocent until proven guilty. That is, we have to wait for fucked up people to hurt somebody else before we can put them in prison. Better would be a system that addresses mental health concerns and anti-social personality issues that people around them could draw upon, rather than just relying on cops and courts.

        Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think that we could ever completely eliminate incarceration. We don’t live in a perfect world, after all. But getting rid of prisons is a good goal to aim for.

    • StoneyPicton@lemmy.caEnglish
      1·
      10 days ago

      Exactly! Eliminate the root cause of a problem and it will work its way out of the system.

      Never works! People are too stupid.

  • Fleur_@aussie.zone
    10·
    9 days ago

    This is the greatest bait I’ve ever seen. Dying laughing at jaywalkers lmao. Teach me your ways king

  • whotookkarl@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    9·
    9 days ago

    Poverty and proximity are major factors increasing and sustaining crime, and if people don’t commit crimes they don’t become incarcerated prisoners. So better social systems for people who need it and forcing wealthy citizens to co-locate with poor citizens so they have to share the same goods and services instead of allowing a multi class system in everything but name. And for the US obviously outlawing for profit prisons and the prison slavery clause of the 13th amendment. No crime justifies slavery as a punishment. That’ll reduce prison populations by such a large amount that you could easily manage rehabilitation and humane incarceration programs for each individual.

  • Maeve@kbin.earth
    6·
    10 days ago

    Incarceration?

    My personal opinion, segregation from society isn’t the issue so much as retributive segregation. Segregation from society should focus on intensive therapies, ongoing after release, if necessary, providing some sort of educational, trade, and artistic training, and supportive social services after release, alongside parole.

    Edit: https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846

  • Katana314@lemmy.worldEnglish
    4·
    9 days ago

    Tell the murderers and child molesters: We’re letting you go with a warning this time. But if you even think about anything reprehensible again, we’ll lock you up with the JAYWALKERS.

    /s