• djsiete@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    65
    ·
    edit-2
    4 days ago

    The absolute worst thing about how STEM is taught in my country is how entirely devoid curriculums are of critical theory. You take inputs, outputs, energies and production as-is, and you get a crop of drones who think such discussions are irrelevant. Then they graduate, start working and earning good money – and suddenly they support capitalist production structures because they’re “rational” and “objective”. Some then become the biggest chuds ever known to man.

    I remember that I discussed gentrification with a civil engineer who happened to be my boss, a very renowned and talented person in our branch. He didn’t know what gentrification was…

    • Dejected Warp Core@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      20
      ·
      4 days ago

      civil engineer […] didn’t know what gentrification was…

      Sweet jebus on ice-skates. The guy was potentially a literal if not figurative architect in service of one of the most profound mechanisms of gentrification and hadn’t heard of it?! That’s like designing cars and being unaware of traffic jams and induced demand.

    • Bluewing@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      5 days ago

      Isn’t it funny how people who “have things” are less likely to be all that interested in leftism. And those who don’t have “things” look at them, want more leftism because they want want the “things” the people who have “things” and they don’t have.

      And neither side understands the other.

        • dreamy (she/her)@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          13
          ·
          edit-2
          4 days ago

          That leftism is a product of ressentiment from people who don’t have “things” against people who have “things”, I guess. ContraPoints-level take tbh.

          I hate billionaires, not because I want to be a miserable sociopath with too much money, but because they are largely the reason that any kind of improvement to our planet and species is being blocked. I support socialized healthcare, not because I envy those who have the money to pay for life-saving healthcare, but because I don’t want to fucking die, etc. etc.

          There certainly are people like BadEmpanada, who oppose unions and welfare so that “first-worlders can suffer”, but they definitely don’t reflect what leftism is in general.

          BE


          • mobyduck648@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            8
            ·
            4 days ago

            I agree, and I’d add it’s not even a specifically left wing impulse either. The Roman Republic of all institutions was deeply concerned with the idea that republics shouldn’t have private princes as well as kings. The fact the Roman Republic failed to contain its oligarchy to the point of fundamental destabilisation into arbitrary power is evidence people ought to pay attention to left wingers when they say the same thing about billionaires and the concentration of wealth.

          • Homosexual sapiens@lemmy.blahaj.zone
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            4 days ago

            BE on twitter and BE while actually speaking seriously are like two different people. He seems to have an unhealthy addiction to creating twitter ragebate. I would not take it literally.

      • Okokimup@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        14
        ·
        5 days ago

        Isn’t it funny how people who “have food” are less likely to be all that interested in leftism. And those who don’t have “food” look at them, want more leftism because they want want the “food” the people who have “food” and they don’t have.

        It’s still garbled, but makes a better point.

        • grrgyle@slrpnk.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          4 days ago

          Your edit makes a good insinuation “they’re just things” people think objects are frivolous things that tie you down because they’ve never experienced genuine lack.

          Not like lack of toys, but the bear necessities of survival.

          • nomy@lemmy.zip
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            edit-2
            4 days ago

            The basic necessities should just be provided, by that I mean food and shelter and basic medical care. If people want to live luxuriously that’s fantatic, going and toiling, innovating or improving their situation in someway should be encouraged; but no one should ever be shelterless and hungry.

      • BradleyUffner@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        12
        ·
        4 days ago

        I have plenty of things, and still support pretty left wing ideas (except for the violence that some people here seem think is required to be considered left).

        • BeardededSquidward@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          4 days ago

          I just want to be able to live life as carefree as they can without regards to money. It’s a bit of jealousy but it’s not the overriding reason for it.

      • grrgyle@slrpnk.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        4 days ago

        What do you mean?

        I have more things than I could ever want.

        I want more agency.

  • Avicenna@programming.dev
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    19
    ·
    4 days ago

    I wouldn’t want to be a CS teacher at this decade, more than half the code will be AI generated. Would just suck the life force out of you seeing how little students care about actually learning the stuff.

    • sobchak@programming.dev
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      edit-2
      4 days ago

      When I was a TA, I’m pretty sure 1/3 if the students plagiarized their programming assignments. Copy/pasting suspect snippets into Google would often bring up near-verbatim results, and a similarity tool would often reveal 3 students that either worked together or copied from the same source.

  • w3dd1e@lemmy.zip
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    19
    ·
    4 days ago

    What is the saying? Something about people who learn about how technology works begin to shun technology?

  • arctanthrope@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    78
    ·
    6 days ago

    I’m sure these topics become relevant at some point, but I’m doubtful that it’s absolutely necessary to address them in an intro course. how does leftist ideology help kids understand what a while loop does

    like, literacy can do all of these things too, that doesn’t mean you have to introduce those concepts at the same time as the abc’s

    • ayyy@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      31
      ·
      5 days ago

      Hooooo boy, this person is going to make a terrible and incomprehensible intro class full of irrelevant infodumping lol.

      • LandBasedDaveyJones@lemmy.today
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        17
        ·
        5 days ago

        I’ve had the same approach from the other side of the aisle and let me tell you, talking about open source and liberal ideals in programming would be a lot less hostile than some fundie rant.

    • Dejected Warp Core@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      8
      ·
      edit-2
      4 days ago

      The distinction here is programming vs computer science. You’re correct that it’s not strictly necessary, but it really depends on the area of study. Please allow me a small rant about the distinction - this isn’t directed at you.

      Programming, honestly, could be taught like a trade. It’s a skillset and a craft, with best practices and even regulations in some industries. But one doesn’t need to know anything about how we got here or the fundamentals that make a computer work electronically, in order to write code.

      Computer Science necessarily tracks back through the history of computing, in order to provide a grounding in how all this stuff ticks. You can’t talk about Babbage without Ada Lovelace, you can’t talk about Alan Turing without what the government did to him, and you can’t bring up ARPANET or the internet without talking about Berkley techno-hippies. Every step of the way are people taking capitalist and government interest and subverting it to meet more worldly and socialized goals. Everyone in this story has an agenda and, shocker, the smartest people tend to dominate in this field and reliably don’t fuck with conservative nonsense.

    • JasonDJ@lemmy.zip
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      11
      ·
      edit-2
      5 days ago
      basket = []
      for pos in billionaires: 
          if pos not in basket: 
      -       basket += guillotine(b)
      +      basket += guillotine(pos)  # Corrected iterable naming
      
    • bort@sopuli.xyz
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      5 days ago

      in my first semester of compsci we learned about chomsky hierarchy pretty much on day one, while we learned about while loops like a month later.

  • BeardededSquidward@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    10
    ·
    4 days ago

    It’s not even that “hardcore” of ideology honestly. It depends a lot on the lens you view it through your society. If it’s far right, then saying “water is a human right!” is going to seem extreme leftism.

  • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    23
    ·
    edit-2
    5 days ago

    Republicans have never forgiven Alan Turing, and much prefer the contributions of IBM during the same period.

  • abc@suppo.fi
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    10
    ·
    edit-2
    4 days ago

    This may shock you, but if you think like this, you might be a hardcore leftist.

    Also, I’m reminded of the Ghostbusters (1984) quote:

    Dr. Raymond Stantz: Personally, I liked the university. They gave us money and facilities, we didn’t have to produce anything! You’ve never been out of college! You don’t know what it’s like out there! I’ve WORKED in the private sector. They expect results.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjzC1Dgh17A

  • auzy1@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    7
    ·
    4 days ago

    Not sure what the discussion was, but, I recall they changed terms like Master/slave a few years back (maybe in the linux kernel), to make things nicer. I have no problem with this (not a big deal).

  • yuki_gassen@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    32
    ·
    edit-2
    5 days ago

    I don’t think OP is implying while loops require ideological understandings, but rather more foundationally as to understand how computer commodities are made and traded, the concept of centralization simply arises. Thus, the discussion of control, IP, etc, and now AI and labor.

      • yuki_gassen@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        9
        ·
        5 days ago

        Typically, historically, it didn’t matter really. Moore’s Law, general positive vibes from the prospect of computer tech in the future of the industry, and why scare undergrads seeking good salaries away from institutions taking donations from said corps? But things are pretty different now. AI is less of a thought experiment than before. What better lens to analyze AI than from labor in economics, i.e., Marxism?

        • hirihit640@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          5 days ago

          The students joined the class to learn programming, and not to analyze AI? It’s like if I joined a pottery class and the teacher spent an hour talking about how pottery isn’t a high paying profession. I didn’t come for life advice or economic rambling, I came to learn pottery.

          • yuki_gassen@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            7
            ·
            5 days ago

            My bad for looking for nuance in a microblog meme, jesus. Education ain’t just the literal skills and nothing else, y’know. Teachers and classes are more than just human textbooks and tutorials.

            • hirihit640@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              4 days ago

              And yet, the intro programming class I took just focused on the skills and I thought it was great. I’m mainly refuting OPs implication that you have to teach leftist ideology in order to teach programming. It sounds like they just want to teach leftist ideology, which imo is fine as long as it’s stated in the syllabus, so the students know what they are signing up for.

              • yuki_gassen@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                4 days ago

                I’m glad your personal experience was great, I get where u are coming from. In most other similar situations, that tracks. Some topics do truly have little to no need for an in-depth political angle. And yes, most of my enjoyable classes too were non-political, although not because they were non-political.

                But what is so fundamental to “leftist ideology” (I take that as Marxist economics, to be clear), is the role of labor in the material world. That’s the shortest I can boil that down to. And today, in “2026,” with the prevalence of AI, and based on the post mentioning “leftist ideology” and “teaching an intro to comp sci class,” what else could they be talking about? AI, as we all know, is a labor-cost saver for bosses. Economically, that is what it is hoped to function as. It is (ideally) a profit increaser. That’s just the math that any and all capitalist follows. A teacher that understands that, and is in the position of progressing their students’ careers, yeah, can’t blame them for “seeing it everywhere” and wanting to share that.

                • hirihit640@sh.itjust.works
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  4 days ago

                  Honestly there’s hundreds of other ways you can tie leftist ideas to CS and modern software. Like alienation of labour, powers of scale, etc. You could teach a whole class on it if you wanted. You could so so even before AI. I don’t think many of the students would be happy about that though.

          • NEZ27@lemmy.zip
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            8
            ·
            5 days ago

            Because people are using AI in programming now. It will only be utilized more as time goes on. Getting into the risks and reward are necessary to know what to do and what not to do. Or at the very least what to be wary of.

            Introduction Courses are the Who, What, When, Why, Where, and How. Knowing what you’re getting into and what you will be dealing with are just as foundational.

            • hirihit640@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              edit-2
              5 days ago

              AI is used in every field now. Programming courses can just do what every other course does: tell the student that nobody can stop them from using AI, but if you do be prepared to fail the test. Leveraging AI for work, and the ethics of doing so, is something that can be covered in a different class. But my intro programming course taught the basics of programming, not what industry programming was like. Just like my intro to chemistry course never taught what it was like to work in the chemical industry.

              • NEZ27@lemmy.zip
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                4 days ago

                AI is basically a slippery slope in all directions surrounded by pitfalls it misuse and abuse. People are too quick to trust it. I think a syllabus that includes a lesson warning people as early as possible about the dangers/risks is a good idea that is still relevant to the course. An ethics class for the deep dive is a fine idea, but I don’t think a chapter on analyzing this stuff in an Intro course is that out of bounds. Intro should at least address it, or at the very least not considered a waste of time.

              • TheLegendaryAssholeOfJushinLiger@sh.itjust.works
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                5 days ago

                How many programmers DON’T use AI to some degree already? As the technology continues to improve adoption and usage will only increase. Actually hand coding stuff is soon to be a mostly lost craft.

                • hirihit640@sh.itjust.works
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  4 days ago

                  Programmers use AI to do work. The goal is to get work done. But the goal of a class is to learn. If the AI is helping you learn then that it’s probably fine, though many studies indicate that using AI actually hinders learning.

              • NEZ27@lemmy.zip
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                4 days ago

                I don’t see people giving up on it anytime soon. I do think eventually it will serve some kind of purpose or be refined enough to be reliable in some way. I think far too many people jumped into this stuff with both feet thinking the future is now and skipped over creating shortcuts for tasks in an effort to take shortcuts for profits.

                And there are plenty of people who are willing to use and abuse this tech for nefarious purposes. Deep fakes, fraud, etc. they definitely won’t give it up as they don’t care about the effects on the rest of us

                • zarkanian@sh.itjust.works
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  3 days ago

                  LLMs do have purposes, and they had purposes before this current crop of chatbots dubbed “AI” came along. The problem is with “generative AI”.

                  Cory Doctorow has a great article about it here. It’s an “emperor wears no clothes” situation.

                  In the 500+ employee businesses Suresh studied, the only people who were promoted — or even spared from being fired — were people who professed “religious declarations of faith” about “the transformative power of AI.” Employees who voiced honest, informed objections to AI in the workplace were passed over for promotions or targeted for layoffs.

                  This has created a situation in which everyone — “boards, executives, employees, vendors, consultants” — has a strong incentive to lie about how much AI is delivering for their companies. Suresh says he’s seen announcements from publicly traded companies about their AI triumphs that he knows for a fact never took place.

                  Suresh says he’s never seen a successful enterprise AI project: “Every single one — we have seen 0% success in a year and a half.”

                  Additionally, all of the AI companies are still operating in the red. They still aren’t turning a profit 4 years after the release of ChatGPT.

    • chortle_tortle@mander.xyz
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      9
      ·
      5 days ago

      I don’t think OP is implying while loops require ideological understandings

      I am.

      The slaving masses of the proletarian transistors are being controlled, dictated, and trapped in a perpetual loop by an entity the systems deem as superior, the bourgeoisie user. Only by breaking the chains of these oppressive confines can we liberate the process.

      And thus, you need to make sure you have a break clause for your loops.

  • Jankatarch@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    24
    ·
    edit-2
    5 days ago

    It’s an introduction class, just start with history of computers and shift to programming from there.

    You know, the history of computers, the Alan Turing, and the first assembly language, and the first software engineer, and “the entire pre-1992 internet.”