If only we had invented and built some sort of alternative mode of collective transportation. Maybe it could be in tunnels and ride on metallic rails. It would serve many people and make periodic stops to the same locations instead of the highway clusterf- we have today. Sad that we don’t, but a man can dream though. A man can dream.
Reported as not really being politics, and I could see it as being more !news@lemmy.world or even !business@lemmy.world
But pocket book issues like this impact politics.
“It’s the economy, stupid!” and all that.
Everything is politics.
The only way you can escape politics is to live alone on an uninhabited planet.
Even then, I’m sure someone would figure out a way to have conflicting ideas that need to be argued out. There’s a reason Tom Hanks invented Wilson (and the real-life stories such concepts are based on), we NEED other people to engage with, to debate with, to argue with, for validation and support and to negotiate with in order for our ideas to sharpen and for our minds to stay stable. Without this, we lose our minds or even die.
So not only is everything politics, we can’t live without it.
I think about this every time I see someone whinging about politics in entertainment.
Ok, except for sportsball
Politics underpins finance at every level
I feel most of the mod decisions are arbitrary, but there’s also a good reason we don’t all just post everything in an “everything” com.
Yern idiot
I didn’t report it, I’m stating it WAS reported and the reason why.
My post explains why I didn’t remove it. 😉
It’s good to have a forum to discuss the issue from a political angle. You can wedge politics into everything if you try hard enough but then for other stories, you don’t really have to try at all. This one seems like the latter.
Nothing like a great self-referential comment
Have they Tried RAISING Prices while DROPPING Wages? That might help!
Just stop importing avocados and toast
Why not just finance the unaffordable cars for 10-15 years? That’ll solve the problem.
And ensure they catastrophically fail around year 6 or 7
The slow wither approach.
WHAT??? HOW WOULD THAT POSSIBLY HE----oh. I see what you did there. I ate the lemon.
maybe if dealers would actually tell you the price of the car instead of spinniing it as a monthly expense
Yes, but how can that poor salesman possibly get you into the most expensive car for the longest terms that way? They’ve got a commission to max out!
There is a dealership local to me that pays their sales staff annual salaries with benefits rather than working on commission. It’s the only place anybody in my family will buy a car now.
Are the millennials killing car ownership!?
Boomers told me millennials kill everything. Which by its own nature means millennials killed killing everything.
But that means they also killed killing killing everything
Not long ago I could buy a used van for 5000. Now I had to pay like 13k for a used one after our typical accident caused by another person had an insurance that wouldn’t pay up.
That’s such a shit business going around telling people they’re covered but then in the end not actually covering anything. I get it cars depreciate… Well great, why doesn’t my insurance premium deprecate? I would gladly maintain the same level of payment if it means my car will be replaced. Similarly, if they won’t actually replace my car, they should just tell me…you’re going to need $5000 to make up the difference if you get into accident.
Buying a new vehicle hasn’t made sense for about 30 years now.
I’ve been driving for about 30 years and in all that time, I’ve never owned a new vehicle. I kept buying used vehicles for about $2,000 - $3,000 per vehicle. The oldest one I’ve ever had is a 2004 Volvo station wagon and I still maintain it and it’s still running as one of my main vehicles. My other main vehicle is a 2010 GMC Truck which I also maintain. They don’t look new, they show a bit of rust around the edges, but they are still very good vehicles that will last several more years.
Once they break down enough … I’ll buy another used vehicle. In all, over the past 30 years, I’ve spent about $30,000 on multiple vehicles (I think I’ve gone through 8 or 9 in that time).
It has never made sense to me to buy a brand new $40,000 car that will only be used for about five years before you buy the next one.
That’s going to become more and more difficult to do over time.
Cars are being designed to be difficult to repair and to fall apart in less and less time.
I agree … I think the cutoff is about 2010-2015 vintage vehicles. I like Volvo cars and station wagons, they are literal workhorses that were designed by a Swedish company for winter use. And in that vintage, it is just at the peak when the company was still producing good vehicles and just before the point where they were heavily Americanized, then taken over by Chinese interests. The vehicles are still produced in Europe (I think) but of a lesser quality because the company got taken over by foreign interests. And like all manufacturers, they are moving away from the piston engine technology and transitioning to all electric.
Yes it is inevitable that everything will move away from old piston engines … but I think it will all last another 20-30 years before it all becomes impossible or way too expensive for anyone to maintain their old clunkers after that.
To be fair by 2010 they’d been owned by Ford for a decade and then in 2010 were sold to Geely, the Chinese parent company. From everything I hear, the quality actually has gone up under Geely, compared to Ford, which was easily the worst era of Volvo. Personally I still like RWD Volvo bricks, but of course they’re not as safe or efficient as modern cars.
No, cars are designed to be easy to manufacture. Which makes them difficult to repair. As someone who has designed and built machines, you need to understand that there is a big difference between easy to manufacture and easy to repair.
Look, I’ll go out there and say it.
Cars are just an afterthought on the heater core. That’s why it’s called the heater CORE and also why you need to disassemble half the damn car to get to it.
Speak for yourself.
I have purchased multiple new cars over the last 25 years, and, while they’re more expensive than a used car (although that difference is shinking all the time), I also run them for years because I can keep up with maintenance. My last new car was bought 14 years ago and is pretty much still new condition. I still even have the plastic film over the climate control screen.
I don’t care about depreciation or resale values.
EDIT: Punctuation.
I still even have the plastic film over the climate control screen.
This is how we know this guy is a bot, alien, psychopath or monster.
HOW THE FUCK HAVENT YOU PULLED THAT OFF?!?!?!?!?!?
Ha! 112k miles and still sticking. At this point, it’s like a streak milestone so I’m just seeing how long it goes and curious what the dealership reaction will be if I ever trade it in. Thus far no one in the service department has ever commented on it.
Would you peel it before you sell it if you ever sell it?
Like you could show it to them and peel it off…
Ooh. That’s a good question. Or do I leave it so they can put it as a feature on the car’s listing? :D
Demand an extra $3k for pristine screen with the oldest most satisfying peel off you would ever experience. Feel the 200k miles as you slowly pull it off, or let it grow to 300k for even more vintage plastic value!
You could have bought yourself a 1 year old used car and saved yourself thousands for the same outcome
Maybe. Or I could be driving a one year old lease repo that the dealer pinky promises is good as new. I’d rather actually buy new and get the warranties and protections that come with it. Thankfully thus far, I have been in the financial position to be able to do so. I’m beyond the point in my life where I want to be driving the $600 K-car to save cash. Everyone has something that they think spending the extra money is worth it, for me, it’s having a nice car that lasts.
Plus, without people like me buying new stuff, you wouldn’t have those one year old cars to buy in the first place.
it’s having a nice car that lasts.
See, this is where your stupidity and ignorance shines. Used cars can and do last. It’s not even a gamble if you go to a reputable dealer.
The insults are not necessary. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I could make the same argument as you about someone spending a bunch of money on a new top shelf gaming rig instead of buying used parts on eBay.
I didn’t say used cars didn’t or can’t last. I’ve driven plenty of vehicles in my life and know how to maintain them. I’d like to buy the exact car I want, know I’ve been the only driver, and know it’s full service history and drive style over the entire life of the car, which as I said, I keep for many years. And for me, that’s worth the premium to buy new.
If you’d like to continue to buy used, have at it.
Yeah, he’s an idiot.
Don’t take financial advice from people who buy new cars.
You better hope there are plenty of people like him. Without someone buying new cars, there would be no used ones for you to buy.
That’s what I did, less than half the price for a car with 10k on the odometer
I can say this proudly because I live in northern Ontario which basically salts our vehicles for about six months of the year. We might as well live on an ocean coast, we have so much salt on our highways. I do my own undercoating every year (it’s a real pain) and I put it on thick and in every nook and cranny. The work that I do just delays the rust, it doesn’t prevent it because there is just too much salt up here. Mix into that ice and snow and all that stuff just cakes on, falls off, takes away the coating, exposed metal, more salt and repeat all winter long. I’m lucky if I can hold onto a vehicle longer than ten years up here.
I’m in Minnesota and we use salt also, although in recent years it’s been a lot more brine and pre-treatments before it snows rather than just dumping rock salt out like they used to, which has helped. Used to see rust in wheel wells and such all the time, but it’s much more rare these days.
I’ve never seen people more mad that a stranger paid a few thousand extra amortized over 14 years.
I have purchased multiple new cars over the last 25 years,
You’re an actual dumbass. New cars lose 20% of their value the moment you drive it off the lot.
I don’t care about depreciation or resale values.
Clearly. You’d rather get ripped off by the dealership.
How about you get some life experience and try buying and maintaining a used car? Then you can see for yourself how stupid your assumptions are.
If you buy a piece of equipment new and keep it for the expected lifespan of the machine, then you get to ‘keep’ the depreciation. Depreciation only matters if you plan on replacing the machine BEFORE the end of use life. And with things like cars, people often get rid of them long before the use life span is reached. And it’s at that moment that the depreciation is a problem. I too, find it doubtful that hydrashock has kept multiple new cars long enough to personally use up the depreciation value of any one of those cars.
Example: That shiny new iPhone you bought took a depreciation hit the moment you paid for it. And when you trade it off when the next new model comes out you pay the cost of that depreciation through the trade in value. Had you kept your phone until it no longer worked before you replaced it, you would have recouped the cost of depreciation.
I used to think like you, but then my time became worth money. It’s no longer such a clear cut case.
If I spent even 100 hours a year working on my car, that’s now several thousand euros. More than a year’s worth of lease payments on a brand new budget vehicle or (and this is my preference) a 3 year old executive car. And at the end of the lease I have the option to buy it for what’s likely significantly under market value and then either keep driving it, or sell it immediately to recoup some of the depreciation.
Then consider that with the new vehicle you can get full coverage insurance which isn’t even available on a 20 year old vehicle (and full coverage gives you peace of mind that if YOU fuck up or an animal fucks your car up, you get the residual value back). This occurred to me when my friend’s old, around 1000 euros worth car slipped into a ditch in the winter. Its value just dropped by half and there’s nothing to do about it. If it’d been their significantly newer car, it would’ve been a 350 euro copay to get it repaired or totalled and paid out. My car at the time was worth around 3k and if I’d totaled it by either driving into a ditch in the winter or hit a moose, I would’ve been out of a car and out of money. My next car after that was a lease and if something would’ve happened to it, insurance would’ve made me whole. In fact I got a brand new OEM Mercedes windscreen fitted for free, no copay since it’s usually 0% for windows. That alone was worth over a year of insurance payments.
Currently I’m back to driving a shitbox. Nice car attracted gold digger, gold digger ruined finances, now I’m living as cheaply as possible. But the shitbox life is not great either - I’m going to have to either change the transmission on mine to keep it going another few years, or sell it for a loss compared to what I paid for it just 5 months ago. This is after I’ve already done brakes, belts and some electrical work. Sunk cost fallacy becomes way too real way too quickly on cheap used cars.
I dunno. I bought a Honda new twice. Once showed up on the city bus and negotiated them down to a nothing down & low monthly payment that I could manage for 5 years (I am an accountant and first built a spreadsheet with present value calculations to figure out my target price) car is built to last 20 at least, I paid it off easily enough, then someone ran a stop sign and absolutely smashed it to bits, I took the insurance money as a down payment and got a better car new, same low monthly, paid that off years ago and have been driving it since 2014. This was mostly possible because Honda did a zero or 1% loan both times. Used to buy beaters but this has been so much nicer, and it’s easier on cash flow. I hope I can keep this one for as long as I need a car (mostly use the electric bike now) because it has all the tech I want but none of the tech I don’t want. Like at this point if I won the lottery I still don’t know if I’d want a car of today.
New car at today’s prices, and what they are, I kind of agree with you but used cars at today’s prices seem just as bad of a deal. And it was not always like this. You used to be able to negotiate, they had too much inventory.
I’d really like to know where you are buying 15 year old GMC trucks for $2000-$3000 that presumably run and aren’t beat to shit.
I bought it when it was ten years old and from a friend of a friend who was selling it privately. The only real way to grab a good vehicle is if you know of someone who had a vehicle from new. It’s just constant searching and luck that one is able to find vehicles like this. The guy I bought it from had it from new and took care of it and by the time I got it, it had minimal rust. He knew the truck’s life was limited which is why he wanted to get rid of it. As soon as I took hold of it, the rust started growing on the damned thing and I’ve been fighting to keep it going and away from any further rust as possible. The engine and transmission are good and will last a very long time, its just the rest of the truck, especially everything from the wheel wells down (minus the engine and transmission) that will fall apart first.
You’re a smart person and can probably manage your money better than most Americans swept up in consumerist hysteria.
The problem is, most people bitching about “not having enough money” will say that the decisions you made are “not good enough” for them. They believe they are entitled to more before others who have less so they can give that excess to the people ripping them off.
And if you say anything about it, you’re the bad guy.
Yeah, a lot of those shiny trucks and SUVs are bought on credit by people who really can’t afford them and don’t need a vehicle like that anyway.
Yeah, my current car is an almost 20 year old Mercedes c class, bought it a couple of years ago for 3k. Some of those cars that used to be at the upper end of the price range are pretty affordable when they get older. Mine had a good dealership service history, it’s given me very little trouble, and it’s great to have a nice car. I can’t imagine wanting to buy anything new, even if I could afford to.
My 2003 E-Class remains the best car I’ve ever owned, except for one annoying fault that kept coming back with reman parts and new part availability was shit - the steering rack. I do fully believe I just had bad luck with the reman units personally, but it made me sell the car. It had almost 400k km on it at the time and still drove beautifully. Of course I replaced some ball joints and two lower control arms and a few other things… But that’s natural.
Once living in your car became a viable housing alternative, they had to take that away, too.
Wait until they figure out we need food to live.
They already have. Why do you think grocery prices have been a major political talking point? Since most people don’t have enough money to buy property where they can grow/raise their own food, and many municipalities explicitly ban the raising of animals to “protect” the agriculture industry, most people are stuck. Your only option is the monopolistic grocery chains.
Do you know what Henry Ford himself did?
Increased the wages so his own workers would buy his cars…
Henry Ford was a capitalist, racist, eugenicist asshole, but he had one thing the current capitalist, racist, eugencist assholes in power today don’t: long term economic planning.
It’s literally just supply side economics. If you have the power to increase the buying power of your customers, your customers can and will spend more money. Also more free time means people will want to spend more money on things to do and things to own, meanwhile if they’re stuck spending 60-80 hours a week purely focused on work they’ll be too tired to want anything other than food in their belly and a bed to sleep in
And gave them more time off to use them. He wasn’t any humanitarian paragon, just a good capitalist.
A capitalist with a longer time horizon than next quarter
Right, a capitalist. What we have now is something else, something demented, rotten. The wealthy are aware of that, maybe not that they caused it, but they pay smart people to manage their money and it must be obvious that a myopic business strategy is preferable to a long term one. Workers aren’t assets anymore. Ford might have been a shithead, but he understood the vitality of low turnover to a successful long term company. My grandfathers brother worked for Sikorsky his entire life, started turning a single bolt and retired from the executive suite. But his generation was among the last to be that lucky. There is a barrier between labor and management, it used to be a college degree, now it seems to be a PhD or a Masters. Which is just a different representation of money because education is wildly overpriced. There are obviously exceptions, but it’s rare to find large companies that still promote from within, especially from the floor to a desk.
Not sure we should celebrate that man, but the idea
Trump is bankrupting Americans and America so they can install a technocratic dictatorship
Why do we only blame trump?
There’s bi-partisan support for making sure China can’t sell its EVs in the US, even though they cost $15k and have 300km range.
Meanwhile we have dumbasses buying teslas saying “they didn’t get ripped off.”
Of course part of the reason those Chinese EVs only cost 15k is because China heavily subsidized their EV market. Basically they did what the Americans and Europeans didn’t have the guts to do and poured boatloads of government money into a brand new sector to give their companies a leg up while they ramped up. Guess what’s going to happen next?
These companies have all of the knowledge that making multiple generations of EVs brings you, they have all of the tooling already, they can now start expanding into more markets and start making it really difficult for competition to compete because the competition put in only the effort that they had the financial incentive to put into EVs and therefore they’re not ready to compete at all. The rest of the world basically ceded this entire industry to China because politicians were too heavily bought and paid for by the oil companies to do more than a pittance, and now the auto market is about to be heavily shaken up
Can’t we have affordable repairable cars AND reliable public transport? That would sure be nice.
Many places in America at least are just too spread out. But we dont need a super mega duper feed f teenthousand to drive around. Shit like the Slate would be amazing if it could exist (I realize bezos funded it. Still doesn’t keep it from being a bad idea).
Thats why I will argue old cars were undeniably better. You could actually repair them and they weren’t rolling spyware with a subscription.
1990 to about 2014 is the perfect spot for cars. Before that is archaic for most people (i prefer 80s cars myself) and newer than that its just a corpo bot on wheels.
Might I suggest Open Source Repairable Electric Cars, Trains, Trams, Bikes, Bike-Cars, Walking Bikes, Boats, and VTOL’s those would be awesome to get open source alternatives for
Slate EV is open. But watch, no one will buy them.
Good luck finding parts from the 80s though besides pickup trucks since I still lots of those from that era on the road still
Oh there’s a lot of parts for American 80s cars around. And their crude enough you can fab most things to work fine or just get aftermarket if you need to.
Just bring lots of money for gas.
Also, Obama trashed most pre 2000s cars, so Detroit bailouts would work.
Yeah that whole thing really pissed me off. Tons and tons of great old cars destroyed. Further helping the rich and fucking over the poor.
Sure. An eroded economy. Stagnant wages for many long with decreasing buying power. Price hikes thanks to tariffs, increasing insurance costs, rising subscription costs, etc. Cars bought at inflated prices and high interest for extended payment schedules during the covid price gouging, and just generally way too expensive these days anyway, are all draining bank accounts far more quickly than ever.
Bet any repos don’t go back on lots for resale, they’ll park them in the desert somewhere just to prop up scarcity and new car prices.
US admin is catering to corporations who only want to suck in everyone’s money.
The new corporate objective is to have everyone die penniless, with no inheritance for their children.
Except for the wealthy, of course. They know how to handle money responsibly, by investing it properly, and not blowing every last penny on fleeting pleasures like food, housing, and transportation.
When someone says family comes first, they often mean their family over yours.
The name of my local mall is prefaced by “Cadillac Fairview (CF)”. Cars have been overpriced for a long time now and the auto industry is investing in real estate. I think they may price themselves out of customers, just like the theater chains but at least they’ll get a bailout.
CF has no relation to Cadillac the car company. Fun fact, it’s parent company is the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan
I learned something new today.
Your point about it being a cash-flush industry stands though, a huge chunk of the rich families around come from dealerships. Realtors (another high margin sales job) are smarter about hiding their money from their client base, a lot of them take trips constantly and buy secluded homes. Dealership families building mansions on acres of lawn, visible from the main roads, like castles. Not a smart choice but we’ll see how that plays out.
Damn I wish theaters had priced themselves out yet people are still out here paying like $20+pp for a movie ticket. It wasn’t even ten years ago I could go to a second run cinema and get tickets for $2 :(
This got 15 up votes?
Awww. Theyre still not gonna make them one cent less expensive
Don’t forget proper bike infrastructure, trams, subway, busses. Like in most European countries. You’ll end up with smaller roads, lower speeds, less accidents, cleaner air, faster transportation, less car parks so more room for development of huises, more jobs, less waste. Or you could widen the roads, remove sidewalks and force people to drive cars on a road crowded with massive trucks which will crush you like a tank when hit. Hard choice.
Sure but one of the problems is North American cities are to sprawled out.
Our cities are fine, they’re just governed by shitheads. It’s the spaces in between that are the hurdle.
That’s one of the amazing things about ebikes is they make the sprawl so much more manageable!
Sure commuting 10 miles by ebike (probably about an hour commute or noticably less if you go faster than the 10mph average of an accoustic bike) isn’t as nice as commuting 2-3 miles by ebike (about 15 minutes commute time at 10mph), but chances are you’re already commuting between 30-60 minutes by car depending on traffic so what’s making that a consistent 45-60 minute commute with no meaningful traffic jams and wonderful fresh air and sunlight?
Some city folks are just as disconnected from the real world as the morons that insisted they need a f350 super duty to run to Costco.
You’re gonna take your spouse and kids on that ebike? You’re gonna do grocery shopping for a family on it? You’re gonna ride an hour in the rain or intense sun?
You cannot manage the American urban/suburban sprawl with an ebike. Maybe you can, but the average family cannot.
That’s when you attack a wagon to the back and make sure the ebike has enough power to move all that
To be serious though a bikecar would be better. Plenty of those but we need more affordable options
Some city folks are just as disconnected from the real world as the morons that insisted they need a f350 super duty to run to Costco.
Actually I live in a town of about 10,000 surrounded by farm communities so I don’t think most people would say I live in a city. I did grow up in a much larger city, and I’ve visited plenty of cities with hundreds of thousands or millions of people in them, but I’m definitely not a “city folk”
Heck I literally have to drive to the next state for some of my less frequent houseware purchases because that’s where the closest place to buy that stuff is
You’re gonna take your spouse and kids on that ebike?
I do all of my school pickups and dropoffs by bike. I hook a trailer up that the kids ride in. The trailer was $20 at a garage sale and required a $7 standard hitch that I ordered online (said trailers are sold for about $100-200 on Amazon new too) my oldest is getting a little big for the trailer so I think next season we’ll upgrade to a trailercycle for her and hook the trailer up to that.
You’re gonna do grocery shopping for a family on it?
My weekly grocery shopping for my family of 4 is about 3 paper bags worth, or two reusable bags worth. Plastic bags always make the amount of groceries one buys look like way more than it is, but I worked in a grocery store for several years as a teenager and learned how to really heavily pack paper bags, and cloth bags you can fit even more into per bag.
You can get gigantic paniers that will hold that quantity of food, or again, use a trailer that you hook up for grocery runs
You’re gonna ride an hour in the rain or intense sun?
Personally, I love biking to replace car trips, but in the current American landscape it’s most realistic to bike as a compliment to driving. We’ve been a one car family for about 1/4 of the time we’ve had kids thanks to biking, and most of the time we haven’t been a one car family has been due to job changes requiring 40+ mile commutes
So riding in the rain or intense sun? Yeah I do it pretty regularly, but I fully respect folks who decide that’s the day they’ll drive
You cannot manage the American urban/suburban sprawl with an ebike. Maybe you can, but the average family cannot.
If you were talking about an accoustic bike I’d agree. I’m a crazy person and I’ve been enjoying seeing what my body can do with enough training, so I’ve been pushing my limits on my accoustic bike, but ebikes are absolutely game changer since they flatten the hills (I live in an extremely hilly area. My school route literally starts with a 100 foot climb!) and allow for one to not work as hard or at all if they’re sick, too hot or otherwise just don’t feel like putting in as much effort that day
But most importantly more folks should try bikes because they’re freaking fun!
Any ebikes you would recommend?
Personally I’m thinking of getting a walking bike instead
So? Let’s compare just one American city to the Netherlands, the entire country. Because an American city isn’t bigger then our entire country.
I live in the centre, in Utrecht. I can take a train to Groningen or Maastricht, the 2 cities furthest away from where I live. I can bring my ebike on the train or take a public transit bike (so rental) at the station I arrive. Or I take the bus for the final part. Or when I go to Amsterdam, I take the subway and/or tram. Or when I go to a rural area, I take the strain, then bus or bike. Within 2 hours I can reach any city in my country with public transportation or 3.5 hours for any rural location. I can reach any part of Berlin in 7 hours. This is on the other side of Germany.
It’s the layers of public transportation which solves issues of being sprawled out or super dense. Sprawled out? Faster transportation, like trains, bus and subway. Super dense? Tram, bus, bike.
I understand many Americans don’t see it as a solution, as they have busses, trains and subways. But these networks are poorly planned. New York for example, all metro lines run to the centre making travel between suburbs a living hell. They have taxis, awesome, but they clutter the already cluttered streets even more. It’s so dumb.
See these videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zysL_lkdtys on the design of Tokyo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP-G-inkkDg on the design of The Netherlands
You might say “but it’s impossible to change our cities to public transit heavy, walking and cycling friendly cities, we’re too far down the drain!”. No. You’re not. We designed Rotterdam, one of our largest cities, as an American city completely focused on cars (after it was wiped from the earth during the Second World War bombing by the nazis). It was shit. They changed the entire city to car unfriendly with the focus on walking and cycling, with public transit to support that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ovt1EMULY
