Literally every single person that I talked to that seriously tried an EV (like, as a daily driver for some time, not just the rental you had for a day) said they were never going back to combustion engines.
I disagree. I have had an EV since 2018 and I can honestly say I never want another one. My next vehicles going forward will be ICE 100%.
I’m also going to make sure that they are older and have little to no infotainment / internet connected systems.
A sub year 2000. Maybe a nice Accord or Jeep.
I’m over this dystopian nightmare.
It sounds like your problems aren’t with EVs. It sounds like your problems are with any modern car.
Both. But I rather fill up anytime for 2 mins than having to plan out my charging and waiting 45 mins. This is my biggest gripe.
The spyware, while a big concern, is secondary to my refueling schedule.
You’re driving a pretty old EV at this point. EV charging speeds have improved significantly. Also there are PHEVs now, why not split the difference?
I have no idea what PHEV means. Sorry.
Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle. Sometimes called “Extended Range Electric Vehicles”. TLDR: has a smallish battery you can plug in and charge that gives you something like 30 to 50 miles of range. Then a gas engine to use when the battery is low.
It’s a good option for anyone who has limited daily driving and the ability to charge overnight. Sadly they’re pretty rare. People will complain about “paying for 2 drivetrains” but cost-wise and feature-wise they make a lot of sense for people with occasional needs to drive longer distances.
If you search on cars.com it’s a filter option under “fuel type”. For my zip code there’s currently 3.9K hybrid, 2.4K electric and only 19(!) plug-in hybrid listed.
Extended range electric vehicles are not the same as PHEVs. EREVs have a single drive train, which is all electric, with a gasoline generator that can charge the battery while still driving as a secondary energy source. They can get ranges that exceed regular ICE vehicles even.
I’ve got 180 used PHEVs available on auto trader within 50 miles. Prob depends on the area
You sure have strong opinions for someone who knows almost nothing about the topic
I know more about the topic than you do.
Plugin Hybrid Electric Vehicle. it has a gas engine and an ev motor. the ev gets charged through regenerating breaking our through a charger. you get the best of both worlds.
Except for the maintenance of an ICE car.
What were you driving, a 2013 Bolt?
EVs charge at 200kW now, not 40.
Sadly a first year model 3.
I have one of those and it happily does 250 kW at supported chargers. Takes me 20 minutes or so to go from 15% to 80%.
Where do you drive that 45 minute fillups mid-travel are necessary? Surely that is rare at least.
I never said anything regarding mid travel?
I charge at 20% to 80% regularly and up to 100% if I’m making a longer trip.
The car In considering to get charges from 10 to 80 in 12 minutes. 10 to 90 in 17 minutes. On a fast charger, obviously (400kw+).
Is it the drive train you have a problem with or the software? Because I think you just dislike new cars, not electric cars. In which case keep an eye out for the Slate EV
If Slate makes a reliable vehicle from a new model from a new company, it will be an industry first.
It’s the waiting 45 minutes to charge that I hate.
There are newer models that can charge to 80% in 15 min. It will probably take a while until fast chargers are widespread, but this is where things are going.
That won’t stop battery degradation.
Yeah, it won’t.
ICE engines also need oil changes, transmission fluid, headgaskets,belts.
I agree that modern “it’ll spy on you” car software sucks ass. The actual battery and charging tech is way way better than 2018 though. No one has to stop for 45 minutes.
Yea and I can do my own maintenance. That’s another factor that sucks about EV. You can’t even do any work yourself.
Nice, first I’ve heard of Slate. Privacy-focused EV and looks like they offer customizable trucks and SUVs.
Edit:
Looking at it further, it appears it’s a pick-up truck with an optional SUV conversion kit. I like the tinkerer aspect of it, but the “SUV” would have 2 doors instead of 4, which is certainly not ideal. It’s already a pain in the ass to strap a child into a car seat with 4 doors. I’d also be curious about the passenger safety of those riding in the back seat with regard to how securely the rear roof and frame are attached. I also wonder how this vehicle will get around the U.S. law coming into effect in 2027 where vehicles must have a kill switch. Overall, it seems like a $20k truck would be compelling, but the SUV concept needs more work.
seems like a $20k truck would be compelling
they won’t be $20K, or even $25K.
Meanwhile my kids are at college. I’ll take that two door suv because most of the year it’ll be just me. Actually I’m hoping the seats are easily removable so most of the year i can leave them out and just have a wide open cargo/dog/camping area
Speculation but …… some of the pictures are a bit awkward looking, leading me to speculate there is no real frame on the back, just the structure from the pickup cab. Maybe that “roll bar” is sufficient for back seat passengers too
They should stop with that touch screen crap, always connected to the internet spyware bullshit, but they are putting that everywhere now not just EVs.
We will soon be in the siutuation where if you want an old car without that crap you can’t even go into the larger eu cities anymore, because the engine will be too polluting.
There really is a market for cars without that crap. As long as it brings me and my family to destination safely I don’t care how it is propelled.
My first vehicle ever was a 1987 Suzuki Samurai JX and I regret losing it to this day. I have not been able to match it with any subsequent vehicle I’ve owned.
If you can find a Saab from before GM bought em that’s still in good condition… *chef’s kiss* perfection.
Saab reminds me of an old 80s movie named ‘Moving’ with Richard Pryor.
Is that the one where he goes crazy and like hijacks the moving truck with his stuff in it?
Nah, it’s the one that he moves his family across the country and shenanigans occur.
He has a Saab and hires a stranger to drive it across the country for him.
What do you think of the Slate truck? While I’m not interested in a truck, the simplification and lack of gadgets appeal to me enough that I may consider it anyway
Never heard of it. Up until the Tesla, I have been driving mostly Hondas since the mid 90s. If I could find a nice late 90s Accord, I would be set.
press Y to doubt.
Double the emissions and half of the efficiency. Good choice.
I don’t have an EV, but I can imagine it would be nice to not have to go to the gas station once a week.
I’ve had an EV for a couple of years and had to rent a gas car on a trip recently. I was prepared for the expensive fuel, I wasn’t prepared for how shit it was to drive.
See, an EV’s electric motor and (usually) single reduction gear means you get basically the same acceleration between 5 km/h and 120 km/h. You can put your foot down slightly and forget you’re accelerating because it feels just like sitting in a stationary car on a hill. How far you push the accelerator is how much acceleration you get. Unless you’re getting wheel spin or you’re at the car’s power limit, that’s all there is to it.
A gasser has an engine with different performance depending on RPM and a gearbox that provides different performance based on which gear it’s in and changes according to it’s own logic. You’re just used to this when you drive one all the time, but for me it was awful the way I’d put my foot down and get nothing, then engine noise, then some power, then a lurch and more power and another lurch and less power. The accelerator pedal is a suggestion, mostly disconnected from what the car actually chooses to do.
Yes! About a year ago we went up a very curvy hill with the kids that has, in the past, always made everyone feel queasy, even the driver to some extent. But this year, it didn’t at all. I think it was because we were driving an EV, and without all of the hurky-jerky of the nonexistent transmission, it was way smoother.
an EV’s electric motor and (usually) single reduction gear means you get basically the same acceleration between 5 km/h and 120 km/h
Same torque, not same acceleration. Air and roll resistance have something to say too.
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That’s not how things work.
I charge mine 80% of the time off the solar panels on my roof here in Australia. Making your own fuel is quite the thing.
Another 10% is overnight on a cheap tariff
and the other 10% public charging on longer trips.
We need to separate the feeling of driving from practicality. EVs are pleasant to drive for sure. Having to plan your trips around charging is annoying, there isn’t really much progress there.
The only reason I want a car is to do spontaneous trips to less populated areas. I already have range anxiety, I top up as soon as I’m below 1/3 of the tank. Batteries make it worse.I drive an EV, and planning around driving habits is simply not a thing for me. It’s hooked up to its 230v charger and will be ready at 100% charge every morning. I drive the 50km to work and back for about 25% worth of charge. There’s a few public chargers on the way to work and almost anywhere I care to go. Range anxiety is waaay overblown in my opinion.
If you can charge at home yeah it’s fine, otherwise you’re fucked. I had an ID3 and could only charge at work or at an expensive charger at a gas station.
I had to plan charging at work otherwise I couldn’t decide on a whim to go see my mum on Sundays. The itinerary took around 60% of the battery in summer and only one charging station in between, which is not working half the time. So either I take 30-60 minutes before going to charge (hoping the charger is working and available), or I can throw the dice and hope the chargers on the way works this time.
It’s not so much range anxiety than the infrastructure around me not being enough.
Edit: and by charge at work, I mean go to the nearest charger near the office and remember to get the car back once full to avoid overtime fees. Work took 3 years to install chargers on the office parking.
Haha, yeah very different situations ……
I had to pick my kid up from college and the itinerary takes about 60% of my battery round trip
- I try to remember to click the charge limit on my app from 80% to 100% the night before. Charging at home is wonderful, and this gives me cushion to take detours
- I try to charge at work since it’s free but there’s always a queue so I can’t always
- if my battery runs low (it did once, when I spent the weekend there playing tourist), there’s superchargers in that town and a few miles down both possible highways, plus multiple places on those highways.
- I’ve never seen a non-working Tesla supercharger, and I’ve never had to look for any other brand since they are so convenient and everywhere
yeah i would not recommend EVs to anyone who can’t charge at home. we are just not there yet with infrastructure.
Range anxiety is waaay overblown in my opinion.
By media funded by gas and oil
Yeah but it’s also easy to understand. Even knowing it’s overblown, I had some amount of range anxiety until I took a long road trip and found out how easy it was. It’s also a familiarity thing: people won’t lose the anxiety until they experience the reality
Range anxiety is waaay overblown
in my opinionfor how you use your vehicle.People use there vehicles in a lot of different ways. That’s why there’s a bunch of different size, body style, and powertrain options available for vehicles.
Sorry, but can’t relate. Had that feeling for the first few trips until the first one where we drove so much more efficiently that we deliberately did not take the first planned stop. I rode shotgun, so I then looked for alternative spots to charge, just to see that there are so many in my country that having planned those routes in the first place literally doesn’t make sense.
Since then we just drive. Once we get below 50 km remaining range, we check some map app for the next charger. Like we did with gas stations.
Also, coming from practicality… it’s just so nice not to have to use gas stations. Like, you usually just always start whatever you do with a full battery because you just charge it overnight. No gas stops on my commute is quite practical.
It’s ok if u can’t relate, different people and places have different needs. Where I live there are areas where if you don’t fill your tank, you won’t make it to the next fuel stop. And no, the trees don’t have charging cables hanging off them. If you can do it that’s awesome, but they don’t work for people in rural cold climates quite yet! I’d love to have an “EV” hybrid thing with a smaller battery and a diesel on board generator, zero range anxiety and bonus points if the generator is an old mechanical diesel that can run veggie oil or used oil from my other shit boxes or various biofuels. Sure it won’t be as clean as a true EV but I bet it would be more efficient than a gas car.
Oh no, I have to stop for 15 minutes after four hours of driving, every time I drive more than four hours at a time.
I have anxiety right now just thinking about the next time I have to spend that 15 minutes in a couple months from now.
Do you think I can save up all the times I don’t stop for gas between now and then and use that as some sort of credit towards that time?
You wish it was 15 min
Surprisingly it is. The trip planner on my car tries to keep you on the steep part of the charging curve and has never planned more than 20 minutes.
It’s actually kind of annoying since you want to do something while waiting but it’s not long enough
- one long stop I walked a couple times around Walmart but didn’t have time to shop
- another long stop the time was up before we found the food court so I had to stay longer
- I witnessed true southern hospitality where i tried to walk a couple blocks while waiting at a longer stop, but some business opened their gate to let me cut through
It’s actually kind of annoying since you want to do something while waiting but it’s not long enough
You know you’re the boss of the car and not the other way around right? :p
Yeah, often it’s shorter. Sometimes you don’t need another 70% battery to finish your trip.
I can’t share that feeling. My country has a law that every parking garage and parking lot must have chargers and often a fast charger is installed. I really have to go a few countries over to a place that’s not full of chargers.
Having to plan your trips around charging is annoying, there isn’t really much progress there.
Do people do this? Sure I was anxious when I first got my EV, but the reality is very different. I try to remember to click the charge limit on my app from the usual 80% to 100% the night before but that’s all the planning I ever do.
Do other cars not have this integrated into trip planning? When I use the GPS to set a route, it just automatically adds waypoints for charging when necessary. I never need to think about it. Maybe I haven’t gone rural enough yet, I don’t know
And trip planning has never called for more than 20 minutes at a supercharger, trying to keep me on the steep part of the charging curve.
Where’s the beef?
you always leave with a full charge as you can charge at home overnight, so that helps
If you’re rich enough to have a house where you can charge at home, sure. If you’re in an apartment you’re probably out of luck there.
Yeah I will never go back.
I still have my ICE car for my kids, and have been tempted to upgrade them …… but there’s no point spending money to replace a perfectly functional car only 9 years old, and most importantly just sits while they are away at school
don’t wait, upgrade the kids already.
Assuming the phrasing is intentional, I love it. LoL
But taking it more seriously it has been really tempting. But if get one kid a car I need to get both kids a car to be fair. If each kid has a car I run out of excuses to not let them take it to college. It becomes a whole thing for a whole lot of money
My partner loves their Civic. They will wait all day for me to get back from work so they can take the fake Mustang though. I still can’t convince them to sell the Civic, but we’re putting maybe 1000 miles on it a year now, probably a lot less, versus about 21,000 on the Mach-E
Allow me to be the first.
I drive an EV now. It’s super convenient not having to fuel up once a week. It’s nice just charging at home overnight. Long distance trips are not so convenient, but doable. The money savings on gas is significant, but tire usage seems to be higher, and depreciation is higher than any vehicle I’ve owned. There’s the looming thought of having to replace the battery someday.
More than anything, I’m tired of cars feeling like spaceships, and EVs are among the most space shippy.
My next car will likely be an efficient but fun four door ICE hatchback (think European sensibility) from six or seven years ago if I can find one with low miles.
No shade on those loving EVs, I think it’s great that the majority of people are moving or would like to move away from ICE vehicles. But so long as they feel like spaceships to me and depreciate like room temperature milk, there’s room in my garage for an efficient gasoline car.
I liked 1 of the electric bikes I tried, and Ill admit its probably objectively better in terms of practicality, but I kinda prefer gas.
For what exactly
seeing as it’s about bikes, probably the noise
For riding, perfectly linear torque without a clutch is kind of boring. Charging was kinda complicated due to 2 competing charging networks and poor infrastructure, Also I’m unclear on how to get one fixed, whereas anyone in this country can fix a honda.
Maintenance is another huge benefit of EVs.
Reduced maintenance, yes. But I haven’t (yet) found an independent mechanic that can work on my Bolt, so the little maintenance I need has to be done at the dealer.
I still took that deal, but it has room for improvement.
Yes, and the number of ev taxis and delivery mopeds in China tells me in the long run, it is cheaper. But I live in an ICE-centric society, if my bike is doing something funny, I can probably diagnose the problem, if not I’m probably within 100 feet of someone who can. If its not worth fixing, there’s enough of a used market I can get a used one for less than 1000 USD that will carry me hundreds of km at highway speeds. We must contend with the world as it exists now.
Fortunately they need fixing way less often
What is your view on hybrids?
Pay for two mobility solutions when you only need one… and, as a negative bonus, you’re still reliant on paying for oil and gas.
Hybrids are consistently among the most reliable vehicles you can buy.
They add some components, but they also take away some troublesome parts: https://www.torquenews.com/1083/its-whats-missing-matters-why-toyota-hybrids-are-so-much-more-reliable-other-brands-vehicles
you’re still reliant on paying for oil and gas
You’re reducing your consumption by roughly 20-30%. Given that this reduction comes at a low cost and retains the ubiquitous fast refueling of gas cars, it’s an excellent choice for many people.
The entire strait of Hormuz mess only affects like 20% of the worlds oil and look at the effect it has. Imagine the opposite happening with mass adoption of hybrids (and continued growth in EVs)
Toyota hybrids are reliable compared to other ICE vehicles. But EVs are even more reliable. Also you still have to do ICE maintenance on hybrids like oil changes.
I agree hybrids still have their place, but i think many more people can switch to full EVs instead of going hybrid. they are just wary of change.
But EVs are even more reliable
It still comes down a lot to brand, as demonstrated by Toyota being more reliable than Tesla: https://autoreliabilityindex.com/compare/tesla-vs-toyota
Realistically, both technologies are mature enough that either technology can be very reliable if the manufacturer puts in the work.
Also you still have to do ICE maintenance on hybrids like oil changes.
ICE and hybrids do have more maintenance, but it is still infrequent on modern vehicles.
Yeah I feel like hybrids are a terrible solution from an ownership perspective. You still have to get gas and do maintenance on a gas engine and all that comes with it. All so you can maybe road trip with a little less range anxiety once a year?
I feel like they’re a great solution …. For the aughts (00’s) and tens (10’s), but we should be past them. They had their time (even if few bought them then) and it’s time to phase them out for EVs. Sure, some vehicles and some locations aren’t yet suited for EVs so they should stay a little longer on the hybrids they should already be using, but most vehicles and place need to be turning to EVs
I really think emotions and politics got in the way of the better technology back then, and now as well. Now is not the time to be ramping up the technology of last decade
Hey, that’s not fair. You also get to drag around the extra weight from having both power sources, which lowers efficiency!
I drive a hybrid, it’s identical to the previous car except it uses 60% less fuel. $2000-3000+ a year savings.
Americans need to pay more attention to what is going on in Iran. Trump is draining US reserves to keep prices low, and there has never been a supply crisis this bad in history. We are months away from gas line ups and flag systems, like the 70s fuel crisis, except this crisis is far worse. The shit hits the fan after the mid-terms, by design.
Hybrids should be the default for gasoline vehicles. There may be some specialized cases where hybrids don’t make sense, but if you look at vehicles that have hybrid and non-hybrid options the hybrid typically sees a fuel consumption reduction of 20-30%. The cost increase is not so much and quickly pays for itself.
It’s also an easy way to add AWD if you only need a light-duty AWD system.
I like the idea of a plug in hybrid.
But there’s a lot more to a car for me. I need it to be affordable. I need replacement parts to also be affordable, and I need it to be user serviceable.
This is why my 20 year old Honda, and my wife’s 13 year old Lexus are both ideal.
Mine is a Honda, which means parts are everywhere, even in the deep deep south. It’s easy to repair basically any issue with it. I have no car note, and liability insurance is $32 a month for it.
Hers is a Lexus, which is for all intents, a Toyota. Which also means parts are ubiquitous. I swapped a water pump in it over a weekend. And I had never done that before. Sure, I’ve always done basic maintenance, but until about 3 years ago, I didn’t trust myself to do anything more in depth.
When my previous car (also a Honda) had a head gasket failure, I swapped it. Took me several months because I was learning as I went. But I did it.
Why? I had no choice. Couldn’t afford another car, and couldn’t afford the 2 to 4 hour labor rates a $20 gasket needed. What would’ve cost 500 to 600 bucks if I’d had someone else do it, wound up costing me less than $150. Had the head machined at a local machine shop, and that less than 150 bucks included that cost.
As I’ve heard my entire life, “po folks gots po ways”
The two examples of repair you used can’t happen on an EV. Of course any EV can be maintained DIY.
You need to look at the total cost of ownership. EVs often cost less than comparable ICE vehicles because of savings in fuel, maintenance, and repairs.
TCO doesn’t mean squat when you can’t afford to buy the car.
I paid 3k cash for my car.
Not OP, but conventional hybrids are alright. Plug-In hybrids are kind of a waste, and really only see benefits in very niche situations.
. Plug-In hybrids are kind of a waste, and really only see benefits in very niche situations.
The situation where you commute 25 miles or less, where national average is 16 miles.
Just get an EV then. Why lug around a gas motor that you don’t need?
In contrast to an extra 250 miles worth of batteries that you don’t need?
You can get a shorter range EV if that fits your needs. Gas engine just adds weight and complexity.
That’s good, until you need to take a longer trip. At which point you can either have the extra batteries or a gas engine. There are arguments for either solution.
yes, extra battery capacity does not require extra maintenance or fossil fuel like an ICE engine does.
There are trade-offs to both extra batteries or an ICE engine to drive a PHEV.
There is no one-size-fits-all, so people will have to evaluate which solution they prefer on a case by case basis. EVs are often (but not always) the better solution, and the market agrees with this on both number of models available and number or units sold.
For those times where you do need to go 1000mi without wasting time at a charge station for hours
Use a conventional hybrid for that, and you won’t need to lug around a lot of extra battery.
Plug-in hybrids fail because of people. They could cover most or all of a typical commute on battery, but there was that recent study saying people don’t use them that way. If you’re going to treat it like an ICE car, it’s just an ICE car with more weight, that costs more.
the problem with PHEVs is the battery is very small, which is a longevity concern. Batteries lose charge capacity based on how many charging cycles they go through. So if you are discharging most of the battery on a daily commute you’re going to kill that battery’s capacity within a few years (like a cell phone).
A great use for the new sodium batteries, assuming they pan out as expected and can scale up quickly. While I still think the PHEV strategy is most appropriate for last decade before batteries were sufficiently developed, a cheaper, longer lasting battery can make them more compelling
I hope to never buy another. We have an ICE minivan as a second car and it compliments our compact EV well. But 10/10 I prefer driving and maintaining the EV. I always knew EVs were quick, but I didn’t expect how quiet they would be. I can actually hear my music.
Which compact EV do you have?
Chevy Bolt - first American car I’ve ever owned and we absolutely love it.
Our neighbor just got one I think. In tennis ball green/yellow. It’s cute.
There’s an active onwers forum for these on Reddit if you’d like to see what more people think.
Hissssssss the dreaded R place. Nah jk. I’ll check it out. Very helpful. Thank you!
I get the sentiment, and I’ve said it before but when my current daily goes, an EV of some sort will likely take its place. Even given the poor charging infrastructure where I am, mathematically it is clearly the sensible choice.
But for the things I can’t measure with a calculator, I’ll have at least one ICE vehicle for a long as it’s feasible to do so. There are boxes that EVs - and I’ve spent plenty of time with them - simply don’t tick for me.
You can add another one to the list then. I was forced to switch last year (regulation changes and end of lease on the ICE company car). I went from a BMW 3-series to a Polestar 2, and I was initially a bit reluctant and skeptical but quickly learned to love it.
I went basically like this:
Electric is just a superior drive train concept for daily driving. The instant torque, the smoothness of acceleration and lack of gear changes are so awesome, even passengers comment all the time about how nice it feels. And once you get used to the one-pedal drive, you don’t want anything else. Just lift the gas pedal to stop, and step on it to go… couldn’t be easier.
The only downside is that in terms of vehicle dynamics you do feel the added weight, you can’t really hide 500 kg extra. So when changing direction it doesn’t want to turn in as eagerly, and you feel a bit more roll and suspension travel in everything that it does, but the positives vastly outweigh this one negative.
I never hear the end of complaints from my mom about how her EV’s range is too short and takes forever to charge.
I’m on holiday, renting a combustion, and hating every second of it.
I want an EV but the prices are brutal :(
Can confirm. Bought one, loved it, so bought another. Would never consider going back.
The problem is that modern cars are shitty. It doesn’t matter if it’s a petrol, diesel or electric car. If I can’t repair it myself, it’s a poor quality car. The fact that you might need specialized paywalled software to remove error codes after fixing the car is just awful.
Most people I’ve spoken with that claim that they don’t like electric cars eventually agree that they don’t like modern cars. Mainly due to how closed everything is.
Yeah, vendo lock in is what has stopped me from purchasing a BYD seal
Repairing doesn’t even really apply to evs. It’s not like you bust out a wrench to fix your tv.
It does. Brakes, suspension. Lights wipers window motors etc, all that shit breaks.
And when I need a fucking dealer computer to “unlock” it to fix my brakes or a broken window motor, fuck that shit.
EVs still have a ton of shit that will invariably break and need repairing/replacement at some point. A huge amount stuff I’ve had to fix on my cars had nothing to do with the engine/transmission and are universal on road vehicles: Brakes, rust, wipers, plastic in direct sunlight, digital displays, head lights, dozens of belts and motors that run on tracks, mechanical doors, AC.
Most of which can be repaired with a stop at parts store and a couple of common tools IF the manufacturer hasn’t locked it behind some bullshit security bolt or a lockout chip.
Make it affordable and I’ll buy one tomorrow.
Let’s talk VW specific. I would absolutely love an ID.Buzz. But you made the fucking thing SIXTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.
I wanted a Ferrari, but they made the fucking thing 6 HUNDRED AND 40 THOUSAND DOLLARS.
I’m not paying $640k for that thing for other reasons. What the hell was Ferrari thinking? Are they trying to make the ugliest Ferrari ever so they can say “see, nobody wants and EV”?
Hey man you posted a picture of a Nissan leaf by mistake. Maybe check the post…
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Is that some kind of gotcha or something?
The average car buyer does not want to buy an expensive EV just to have an EV and will buy a $40k Toyota Sienna before they buy a $60k VW ID.Buzz.
Pretty easy to grasp…It’s not rocket surgery. Make affordable EVs and not upmarket EVs and people will buy them. China figured that out.
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I’d like to preface all of the following with something: a vehicle should account for no more than 10% of a household user’s budget, some say up to 15% but most of the literature I’ve seen puts it at or under 10% to maintain fiscal responsibility. That’s monthly ofc, and puts the total budget somewhere around $1,200-1,400 on most of these cars
So how many people do you know who make between $120,000-140,000 per driver?
Some of us do, most of us don’t
I know plenty of people who cannot and or will not for various reasons ever make that much in their lifetimes
Let’s say a 19 year old getting their first car without support. You think they can afford a 60k car? Hell even a 40k? At +6% apr? They still need a car and not all of us have or had parents to help us foot that bill
How about even a used one ran into the dirt at 20-25k to “establish credit”? Think that’s a good idea either for someone like that? Its a terrible one
Further, if literally anything goes wrong with the battery before it’s paid off but out of warranty… Then what? File bankruptcy at 20-25? Take the credit hit and be unable to buy another vehicle or, or get student loans, or be able to get a mortgage because your credit is shot?
No matter if the payback even makes sense we have prime examples that the economy is down right hostile to EV owners with the EV tax road hike increases forcing EV users to pay up to 10x road “gas” tax equivalents of what petrol does in the US regardless if they drive 1,000 miles in a year or 40,000
Plain and simple, all commuter/work vehicles are not worth $40,000-60,000. They are grossly overpriced and have been since at least 2020
The $70,000 GMC EV work truck trim with 450 miles of range? That’s worth $45,000 max. The Tesla model 3 dual motor (which I paid $60,000 for new in 2023 btw) are worth $35,000 max brand new top trim model and has never been worth more than that despite the insane market gauntlet we’ve been run through
The person you are responding to is not even slightly wrong
Vehicles are grossly overpriced.
Front loading potential savings is not an acceptable practice in an economy where people do not have the option to go without a vehicle to function. Prices needs to crater. Companies need to be making any profits they do make off the back of quantity sold, and off government subsidies and cutting out middle men not massive margins per lesser quantities of vehicles at our expense, because as things stand they’re making their margins off of government bailouts anyways and consumers are perpetually the ones getting bent since taxes are our money and these incompetents are increasingly demanding more and more of it
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I didnt write it 🙃
VTT with a bit of editing removing punctuation and breaking up blocks of text
LLMs are useful for some things
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That extra $20k is for the EV’s battery.
People need to stop quoting Elon Musk. That was true in 2012. Buzz battery is 90kwhr, the cost of batteries is now $120/kWh. So the whole pack costs $11k. Funny how with ICE now one quotes the cost of a catalytic system or how much mining goes on for the platinum and rhodium in cats. ID Buzz is overpriced, plus it’s not even good. It’s a small van.
You have a rough point, but a $20k delta is too much. Thankfully, the comparison is between a “special” car and a boring workhorse, so the price delta isn’t reflective of the practical choices. 7-passenger PV5 looks to be about $50k, so less than $10k delta between a Sienna and a comparable EV van. Still a pretty big gap, especially to take up front, but closer to reasonable given your reasons. We are seeing the gap close more aggressively in the 5-passenger segment, but 3-row still has been focused on EV only for ‘premium’ experience.
Lack of noise and emissions, instant torque control, and the possibility to charge at home are indeed premium experiences. A lot of ICE pushers are trying to get a free lunch here.
Sure, those are premium things, but don’t actually drive the manufacturer’s cost as those come mostly for free.
So it drives bigger margin for them instead, but at the expense of people perceiving EV as somehow fundamentally too expensive.
They’re inherent in the battery system. The manufacturer’s costs are in the battery. Propulsion, silence, no-emissions, instant torque, and home charging are the features we get with a battery whether we like it or not (no downside really). Price-wise, there is no point in talking about them separately. ICE pushers apparently forget the other features of the package. Manufactures must obviously charge a price for the package.
China figured that out.
This isn’t an issue with electric vehicles its an issue with EV’s from traditional ICE based car companies, and the governments refusal to subsidize their purchase or the companies that manufacture them.
Sure, they have to buy their batteries from China, who probably enjoys that profit margin. Traditional ICE based car companies dug their own graves by insisting on staying at the starting line for 20 years, pushing their ICE garbage instead of supporting local refinining.
Traditional ICE based car companies dug their own graves by insisting on staying at the starting line for 20 years, pushing their ICE garbage instead of supporting local refinining.
Nope. Joe Biden spent billions on battery valley to make batteries in the USA, then you idiots re-elected Trump and he put your asses back in the stone age. That’s why Detroit is fucked. Then, he tariffed any imported batteries.
Traditional ICE based car companies dug their own graves by insisting on staying at the starting line for 20 years
Good thing we re-elected an administration that will encourage them to keep standing at the starting line, scratching their butts, watching the race on tv
I calculated this. Came out to somewhwre under $5k to drive my Golf 4 for like 8 years including the buying price. But yea whatever floats your electric boat big dog.
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My wife’s plug-in hybrid charging (at home) costs the same as fuel for an ICE vehicle that gets 60mpg running 87 octane. Electricity is cheaper, but it’s also not free.
you might want to re-check your math.
Off-peak electricity rate in my area is around $0.14/kWh. One full charge is about 14 kWh, $1.96. This can go about 30mi max, for $0.065/mi.
My 300cc bike getting 60 mpg at a cost of $4.20/gal comes out to $0.07/mi.
Did I miss something?
Wait until you factor in replacing the entire battery pack of an EV in 10 years for $10k…
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Not where I live. All those charges for the use of their electricity here. I definitely do not have space to set up my own personal nuclear reactor on my patio. Not even sure I could scavenge enough free materials to build it, even if I found free designs/blueprints.
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What are you driving that gets 60 MPG?
A 300cc motorcycle
I think that’s entirely possible depending on where they live and how much they drive. I have a spreadsheet with my gas spending, and I’ve spent around $12k on gas since 2016. That includes some cross-country road trips, and taking my car to the race track, where it can burn 3 tanks in a day…
For the last 6 years or so, I’ve only spent $3k in gas on my daily, since I don’t have to go far and work remotely now. Gas prices in the PNW aren’t exactly the cheapest either.
Yea it’s really funny how he doesn’t believe that covers my gas when I drive a wittle 1.4 petrol every now and then between cities.
I literally use a tank in like 3-4 months probably. Now even less, since I work remote.
I never track it either… If that weren’t obvious lol. I also fixed nearly everything on it so it should in theory be more efficient than your average broken down one.
Still, funny asf.
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As if you bloody know how much and how I drive lol, funny internet man.
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you’re trying to use your case as representing most people
You interpreting what I said in that way is not my issue
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Did VW ever implement one pedal drive? Total non starter for me a few years ago (got a volvo instead).
There’s B mode that will aggressively regenerate, but nowhere close to one pedal. Although I’ve found myself using the adaptive cruise control for no pedal drive
One pedal plus adaptive CC is going to blow your mind. I love it!
One pedal driving is coming this fall in MY2027. I’ve never had it, so driving in B mode feels good enough to me.
NICE! True one pedal is my favorite and I can’t wait for you to also have it too.
They still have a break pedal, if that is what you mean.
Naw one pedal drive is this neat EV feature you can drive with where if you take your foot off the accelerator the car starts to full regentl brake until it stops. Once you use it in a city you realize how much easier a car is to operate when you dont need to swap between pedals a ton. Its also nice because when you do need an aggressive brake, the time moving from pedals has already initiated a deceleration leading to a faster slow down.
Ah that. I like that, as an optional feature
that’s fair. I love that my car ties it to the user profile so when others need to drive I can preserve my settings.
Yeah shame. Take out all the tech bullshit I dont want and I bet that number gets cut nearly in half. Abs, efi, maybe airbags if you want.
We can make simple vehicles. They just refuse to. Becuase simple won’t break and be unrepairable by the end user. Gotta jeep those stealerships in business with proprietary tools.
In short, with late stage capitalism you will never have a good car again.
I’m certain airbags are a legal requirement.
Oh they are. Cameras and screens inside your car are legal requirements too. Shit the government does to state its legal or illegal is often not good.
I guess what I’m trying to say is there is a difference simplifying in an acceptable manner (perhaps backup cameras don’t need to be mandated) and doing so in an unsafe manner; I don’t think making seatbelts, airbags, or anti-lock brakes optional in the name of “simplicity” is a good idea.
Depending on how long ago you define as the period we had “good” cars, it might be an order of magnitude less safe. It’s hard to separate the unnecessary tech with things that have made cars exponentially safer over the past few decades.
I too wish for vehicles that are more simple, but let’s not toss the “safety” baby out with the “upgrades” bathwater.
Agree.
For me, 2004 was peak car. Safe enough , had abs and efi, still somewhat lightweight and easy to work on, etc.
I think depending on the model, peak is somewhere about 2005 (I’d consider your 2004 right in there) to about 2015. The inclusion of CarPlay was a big plus.
My next car will likely be a mid-teens Golf GTI. It may not be the best in any one category (efficiency, practicality, depreciation, safety, fun, repairability, etc) but it scores high in all of them.
Those are good cars!
I have zero interest in screens or media in cars. Usually car stereo systems suck, at least in cars I enjoy driving which are usually sporty (road noise, tire noise etc). I have a listening setup at home for actually enjoying music. If i want a podcast on a long drive, a cheapo stereo is just fine.
Unfortunately, software defined vehicle is cheaper to build, then you get all the fancy stuff “for free”. One of the many problems legacy manufacturers have is the extra miles of wiring they need to install, mostly manual labor
Yeah, very unfortunate!
Heh, my understanding is that they are affordable, assuming you’re buying Chinese cars and your country hasn’t levied absurd tariffs on that one country in particular.
The car is also unnecessarily big, it feels like
Edit: I misunderstood
ID Buzzes have been selling for $15-20K under MSRP this year. My wife and I never expected to get one after they announced their pricing, but then $15K off a fully optioned one won us over. We grew tired of waiting on Honda to update their Odyssey. We’d been hauling 3 kids in our Accord Hybrid for 3.5 years and would have loved to drive an Odyssey hybrid. I did not want to buy a van with a V6 gas guzzler sporting less tech than my 9 year old Accord.
What does this headline even mean?
Are electric horses better than gas powered horses or what?
Yeah, it’s phrased in a weird way.
He is saying that when cars were becoming popular, lots of people insisted that horses were better. Over time, basically everyone realized that cars are better.
Now electric cars are becoming popular, although lots of people insists that ICE cars are better.
He is saying that over time, people against electric cars will change their mind, just like the horse-people did.
Cars started becoming popular around 1885, and people started to change their mind (specifically because the vehicles improved massively, not just because they were wrong initially) in maybe 1910?
Tesla made them popular in what? 2017? so we should see enough improvements for widespread adoption by 2040
Henry Ford once said somethimg like: if i had asked people what theh wanted, they would’ve said faster horses.
Hell yeah, electric horses!
It’s a simple analogy. Cars are horses but cars are also cars. And of course cars are better than horses.
Make it illegal to include touch screens, tracking, no buttons and no handles. Then I’ll consider getting a loan for one 🤷♂️
They say this whilst trying their best to make EVs the printers of the car industry. Update? The car stops and bricks itself for the duration of it. Want basic features? You have to pay a monthly subscription for the car you already payed for. Need it repaired? Have to bring it to a dealership with criminal prices because every part is serialized and they have you by the balls. Need a new battery after it kicks the bucket in 4-5 years? Expect to pay $10-20k for a new one. Oh and of course the center terminal/tablet is now crucial for the cars function, so anytime that malfunction it bricks itself again. Oh and it will always track and spy on you with GPS and onboard cameras and microphones.
I’m only interested when the vehicles are simple and affordable and the charging stations are fast and ubiquitous.
Which will be 20 years.
People seem to forget gas cars took 50+ years to become widely adopted. They were not really accessible to the middle and lower classes until after WW2.
For some reason people here just want to scream and moan and browbeat anyone who doesn’t want to buy an EV today, when they are unaffordable, inconvenient, and make zero sense unless all you do is commute to work and run local errands. Lots of vehicles are used for different purposes.
I wouldn’t call any car affordable these days so that’s a moot point. The rest of your description of EVs is not accurate at all. I drive an EV long distances across rural Montana regularly. If it works for me I can guarantee it would work wherever you are.
I’m not you. There are no ev charging stations in rural areas where I go. it’s just woods.
My EV has over 300 mile range: most people aren’t going that far into the woods
Unless you live in Siberia or parts of Africa then I am 100% confident that rural Montana is more sparsely populated with both people and EV infrastructure than wherever you are. I can make it work. If you can’t you either haven’t tried and are therefore only speculating or you don’t want to. Either way, that’s a you problem
You can already drive cross country in almost any EV. There are more charging stations in my area than there are gas station.
Mechanically, EVs are very simple. Cost and “complexity” (app, touchscreens, etc) are rampant in ICE cars today as well, so buying one of those won’t really make a difference there either.
Yea I’m all for simplicity. But honestly a modern EV is probably LESS complex than a modern ice. They all have the same complexities with stupid computers for every component (body control modules, “infotainment” crap, hell vw likes to have a module in each door and each seat to controll door locks windows etc) but Ice also had complications of an engine. I love gas engines I’m a gear head, but let me be the first to tell u that there’s a LOT less going on in an electric drivetrain than a gasser. Sure the control modules for evs are computers in of themselves, but a modern auto drivetrain has a computer for the engine and a sperate computer for / in the transmission, plus they both have computers for abs/tc and interior crap and cameras etc. My hurdle to adopting electric is their so goddamned expensive that they can’t outweigh oil, gas, and service costs yet. (If you disagree about that, that’s another conversation. I drive sub 3k$ cars when I have to but mainly ride motorcycles and do my own work so no there isn’t a way to get around cheaper in an EV than an ice for me yet)
My hurdle to adopting electric is their so goddamned expensive that they can’t outweigh oil, gas, and service costs yet.
Yeah, that is the real issue with EVs, and probably the only complaint I’ve seen in all these comments that is valid.
It shocks people when I tell them this, but I did NOT buy an EV to save money. In most situations, buying a new (to you) car will cost you more than fixing the old car many times over. So I’m not shocked that I’m paying more for the EV. I’m more shocked that with the insane cost of gas lately, my EV is getting close to breaking even on monthly driving cost compared to my partner’s civic.
I think it’s funny that the complaint people bring up in these kinds of threads; that EVs aren’t that “green”, that they are unreliable, that charging is inconvenient, or that they aren’t practical… is completely wrong, and people who have EVs love them because they are exactly the opposite of that.
is completely wrong
is it?
Tesla sells the least reliable vehicles you can buy right now.
and
They also have the highest crash rate.
And
The newer models have the battery pack glued into the frame, cannot be replaced, just junked. All models have a cast aluminum frame that is brittle in crashes and cannot be repaired, leading to more write-offs, more junk.
Wow… Sounds like one brand of cars known for having QC problems has QC problems.
Tesla making unreliable cars doesn’t mean that EV is an inherently unreliable technology.
People complain about hybrids because they add more parts and complexity, which people assume makes them less reliable. Yet Toyota hybrids are consistently rated as among the most reliable vehicles you can buy.
My point is that the brands and their QC standards are really important.
The module in each door is actually a cost saving - All you gotta send to the door is canbus/linbus, power, ground and an optical cable from the headunit for (potentially) an in-door amplifier.
What it is is a fucking headache I put a Passat module in a Jetta then the door lock button operated the window lmfao. Thankfully they don’t really go bad often !
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The simple bit is already done, EVs require way less upkeep. The affordable bit is done as well, those ones are just banned to “protect domestic auto markets” (depending on where in the world you live).
The fast ubiquitous charging is still very location dependent. In CA I have no issue finding chargers on roadtrips. I imagine TX is not the same. If you happen to have access to a charger at home or work then 99% of your problems are solved.
Seriously, I’m not even in California and charging is a solved issue
- charge at home is half the price of gas and the car is always ready to go
- free charging at work is icing on the cake
- trip charger in every direction.
Limited by my road trips, I can tell you that everywhere between Virginia and Boston has convenient trip chargers …… and I never bothered looking at anything other than tesla
Even only the north east and California had trip chargers, that’s a population close to 100M. And most decent sized cities everywhere have trip chargers - we’re covered for at least half the population, and probably much much more
Same. I don’t care about the range or anything. I want an EV to spend less money (that’s what they say) but:
- I can’t afford one right now, ICE vehicles are way cheaper out of the box
- there are no chargers where I live
I have no doubts about electric cars being nice or “the future”, but the price of these things is still a problem.
A (reasonably) new one with the range I need (~400km+) costs way more than I care to spend. That is partly because batteries still cost too much, but also very much because they still have a tendancy to gatekeep larger range figures for use in luxury cars.
And getting older second hand is still too much a questionmark in terms of how much of a chance there be you’ll end up having to fork over big for a new battery or motor and/or write it off prematurely.
Another problem is that I also have no way to charge it at home and would be fully at the mercy of public charging infrastructure. And generally speaking as a taller man, I feel some of them can also be quite lacking in terms of interior space.
People aren’t going to realize EV’s are better until the can actually afford one.
Also, maybe one day America will get their heads out of their ass and realize that public transportation is better EV’s.
Only inbreds hate EVs.
Normal people simply hate tesla.
Can they make real cars and not stupid egg crossovers?
It also has the added benefit of watching you all the time!
Other than that EVs are pretty dope.
The only problem I’ve had with the EVs we’ve been leasing for 5 years now, is unsolicited criticism from EV haters. They seem to ignore the fact that I’ve been driving various diesel and petrol vehicles for decades. If my own lived experience of EVs was less rewarding than my previous ICE ownership I’d switch back. It’s not like a football team that I’m wedded to. They’re just generally better cars in terms of driving, torque, maintenance, cost to run and basically every metric that matters to me as a driver. Quite why that annoys people who in many cases have never even been behind the wheel of one is beyond me.
everyone has known evs are just better for some time now. the real obstacle to switching isn’t the charging network or cost. it’s oil and gas lobbying and oil and gas subsidies.
stop all oil subsidies today. stop the big oil lobbyists. then let’s see how fast the switch happens
I don’t know about that. There are many people in this thread who have clearly never owned an EV making all kinds of false statements about them. Unless oil and gas companies are sending bots to Lemmy now I think people just don’t understand EVs.
I think oil and gas companies are responsible for a lot of that misunderstanding though. For example, you think the average person would be concerned about how heavy EVs are without someone pushing that narrative?
Politicians too, and reactionary streamers jumping on the outrage bandwagon. There’s so much misinformation that even many skeptical people fall for it.
Obviously there are still shortcomings, no one is claiming otherwise. But there are far fewer limits than popular culture believes, and even the most aggressive (US) mandates left decades to overcome them
Thats absolutley true, but I live in an apartment complex that wont even fix the elevators, there’s no way in hell I’d ever be able to charge at home and for that reason… I can never have an EV.
