Incel behavior includes using “female” as a noun when talking about women. Using “female” as an adjective is perfectly normal and common. It is fine to write “female coworker” instead of “coworker who is a woman.”
Some people are hypersensitive to wrongspeak.
I don’t think people are bothered by “female coworker”, which is perfectly normal. It’s the reference to a “female-only” community, when the actual com is called WomensStuff and describes itself as “women only” and “a women’s community”.
Maybe it’s just me, but in female-only community, I’m using female as part of a composed adjective. I’d say male-only community too, it just feels more natural. In fact, in an earlier comment I wrote women only, and then writing man only felt SO bad that I changed both to female and male.
Now that I think about it it’s probably because I used man instead of men. I’ll change both back but OOP miiight have followed my logic? Idk
In trans-inclusive spaces we use “woman,” in reference to the gender, as opposed to female, which usually designates sex.
Like a nature documentary, for example: “The female meetkat seeks out her pack,” as opposed to “The woman meetkat hollers at the girls.”
Ok. I somehow missed that. I scanned for other uses of “female” a few times but was blinded to the one right next to coworker.
Not every female is a woman. Some of them are ladies or girls.
I don’t know what to else to say, the community describes itself as “women only” and he described it as being “female only”. You could (but probably shouldn’t) take it up with that community if you really feel their “women only” rule excludes girls. But I’m not sure I see how it excludes “ladies” which are generally considered a subset or synonym of “women”.
To continue your point, it’s true that not every’ female’ is a woman, indeed not every female is human. You get female seahorses, penguins and even female plants (dioecious ants like asparagus or holly). But for most English speakers, in most situations, female is an adjective and not a noun. So, you might ‘have a female friend’ , but you’re not usually ‘friends with a female’.
In my experience, the only linguistic situations where it is common to use female as a noun are 1) in scientific writing “the male mantis is decapitated by the larger female”, and even their is usually just to avoid repeating the name of species. Or, 2) within groups of akward men. I’m not sure if they’re trying to sound intelligent by aping scientific terminology, or are so removed from regular contact with women that they see them almost as another species.
Obviously it doesn’t mean that everyone who talks about ‘females’ is an incel, but its use is highly linked to people who spend time in communities that don’t involve a lot of women. Just as not everyone who uses “bogan” is Australian, but most of them are. Or, have spent a lot of time in Australian-adjacent situations.
Incel behavior includes using “female” as a noun when talking about women.
Non-incels, too. Women, too.
The noun “female” isn’t a problem. Some don’t mind. Seriously. And it’s used self-referentially “in-group”: it shows up in feminist book titles, in dating communities (eg, “F4F/M”), classifieds (eg, “need a roommate […] females only”), etc. In conventional language, it’s an acceptable word.
The problem isn’t so much the word, but its usage, ie, the message. These superficial word criticisms fail to meaningfully engage the fuller context & meaning.
Imagine we make the name for an entire class a derogatory word! Meanwhile, the name for other major gender/sex remains innocuous. Seems like classic stigmatization: who is that serving? Is opposition to the noun “female” unwittingly subscribing to stigmatization & sexist thinking of those who’d welcome the stigmatization?
Segregated anything is fucking dumb. Segregated internet communities are especially fucking dumb because anyone can be anyone on the internet.
Congratulations, you’re the man they’re trying to forget exists for 10 fucking minutes a day in their off time!
Who said I was a guy? Again, anyone can be anyone on the internet.
glances at profile
Def a guy
Funny how some people downvote even the most innocuous comments.
You can assume my gender or race all you want. It doesn’t make you right.
So based and repelled bro. You’re for sure postmaxxing. Absolutely mewing on the haters. more dunks than a 90s kangaroo. You sure told those bitches.
Anyway to be serious for a moment: “the internet is full of wreckers so why even bother” is a fucking wrecker argument. You are the problem. Do you see?
I think you’ve replied to the wrong person since my comment is about assuming genders of people on the internet not wreckers on the internet whatever that might be.
What the hell is a wrecker?
I downvoted because it was a deflection that didn’t address the very real issue presented to you
The issue being what? And how did I deflect? I refuted their comment, that’s not a deflection, that’s showing how dumb it is to claim you are anything since people can claim to be anything on the internet.
Now I’m a ghost and will start a ghost only community.
Give up, brah: you lack conclusive proof. Lemmy doesn’t require ID verification, so anyone can be anything.
You did in reply to this post
A segregated internet would be more like if they had a whole version of Lemmy for all topics but only for women, and then didn’t also participate in the other one.
This is just one community calm the hell down they can have their space.
If they want their own space, they are just bigots. That’s what they called me when I excluded them from the general space in the past!
-the people arguing against that comm, probably
You’ve angered the incels.
Fuck em. “Oh but it’s a free Internet people can participate wherever they want”
Yeah you have a right to be a total dickwad and scream in people’s faces at the grocery store, don’t be surprised when everyone thinks you’re an ass though. They don’t want your input. That. Simple.
Also I wonder how it would look if we made a Men’s Club community where only men were allowed and women were openly mob-scolded for participating. Would probably be considered a pretty sexist environment.
Literally nothing is stopping you from creating a community for men with a rule that only men participate. The difference is that in the community you’re thinking about though, women wouldn’t be constantly trying to mess with it. There are hundreds of communities to choose from. We’re not entitled to participate in them all.
The major point isn’t whether or not it’s possible to create it. The major point was that it would be considered sexist, I imagine. Or at the very least a little cringe.
women wouldn’t be constantly trying to mess with it
Is someone purporting to speak for all women? Seems arrogant.
The mens club you’re talking about DOES exist though. Since men are not a marginalized minority, that club is just called society.
Your logic mirrors asking, ‘Why not create a whites-only club?’ Technically, you could, but people would rightly view it negatively because white people, as a group, are not marginalized. Exclusive spaces for minorities exist to provide relief from the discrimination or bias they routinely encounter. For groups that do not face those barriers, everyday society already functions as their ‘exclusive space,’ which makes it difficult for non-minorities to understand why others might need a separate environment.
We’re talking about Lemmy communities here, having a men’s-only space to discuss men’s issues is totally fine. Also, demeaning men’s-only spaces and placing men in a uniform category as “the oppressor group” is awful for society
I didn’t place them in the oppressor group, I said they weren’t oppressed.
Ok, let’s walk through the implication.
-Women are oppressed.
-Men are not oppressed.
Who again are you saying is doing the oppressing? You’re blind to the fact that most men are also oppressed, and pretending that men can just go out in society and be safe being vulnerable is willfully ignorant
You’re putting words in my mouth and confusing the difference between a demographic and an individual. AS A DEMOGRAPHIC, women are oppressed. AS A DEMOGRAPHIC, men are not. We’re talking about statistics here, not individual experience.
The fact that some men are oppressed does not imply men are equally or more oppressed than women.
The fact that women AS A DEMOGRAPHIC are oppressed and men AS A DEMOGRAPHIC are not does not imply all men are oppressors. It DOES imply that men opress women, but like… fucking duh? If men aren’t pressing women, then who is? It doesn’t mean all men are oppressors, but are you seriously going to sit her and act like the majority of domestic abusers, sexual harassers, and discriminators AREN’T men???
You’re interpreting a defense of women exclusive spaces as an attack on individual men. You should unpack that.
Well then not all man are oppressed isn’t that okay to have a man-only communty?
Men are also being oppressed by the societal norms. Sure. Thing is, the severity of such oppression is not on the same level, and while real, is not a valid comparison to female oppression.
The oppressor is patriarchy, both men and women enforce it. Not everyone, but many. The way our societal norms, and other people in society peer pressure us into boxes is oppressive, and again, while men also are affected negatively by it, it’s just not comparable.
So yeah, you made up that implication due to, and this is me being benign here, your misinformed self. Given that the percentage of male/female users on Lemmy being so male skewed, its effectively a men only online space. Let women have their women only online spaces.
Society doesn’t allow women? And openly scolds them for participating? I dunno. It’s “similar”? I guess? Anyway, the other person makes a lot of the points I would make too so I’ll let y’all hash that out amongst yourselves.
The official Dull Men’s Club website encourages women to participate as well, so I don’t think it should be considered as a men-only community:
Though it started with men, women now belong too.
If 99.9999% of users are men, it’s effectively a place where men can express themselves without the fear that some women will flood the comments.
That’s what women want with their women only spaces. And while that man wasn’t being that rude, until women feel more comfortable let them have their bubbles.
If 99.9999% of users are men, it’s effectively a place where men can express themselves without the fear that some women will flood the comments.
The point of the community is to share the dull things you’ve accomplished, not to go there and talk about stuff with the expectation that only men will respond. I was trying to tell that commenter that, despite the name, it’s not trying to be a man-only space, and people hopefully should not react to or expect the community to be as such. I just wanted to clarify since I think the comm is cool.
There’s another similar community called !dullsters@dullsters.net if anyone objects to the name itself.That’s what women want with their women only spaces. And while that man wasn’t being that rude, until women feel more comfortable let them have their bubbles.
I agree with you.
That’s quite an “if” that you’re starting with.
FWIW that community is just inspired by something that already exists outside of social media. The community owner kept !dull_mens_club@lemmy.world up since it’s pretty active, but the new official/recommended one for dull stuff is !Dullsters@dullsters.net . They explicitly wanted it to be more inclusive (not that DMC was only restricted to men posting).
It exists. Or did. Menslib over on that other platform.
Hey, go for it! If c/mensliberation became men-only, I’d support them! There are some communities where women wouldn’t have anything to contribute, and that’s okay and wouldn’t be sexist.
But just don’t go full kiwifarms with a men-only community and I’d say that’s fine.
I’m not interested in a men’s only club. How very boring. What would we talk about that women wouldn’t be able to join in on the conversation? I never understood that. Women’s perspectives are valuable, just as any person’s perspective. 👍
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I agree. I’m not making an argument that they shouldn’t exist. If someone wants a single-gender/-sex community, that’s fine by me. 👍
I know I’m sending mixed signals, but those things are not equivalent. All of modern society is patriarchal and women face exclusion from spaces their entire lives because of their sex or gender. Things have improved slightly over the decades but this kind of misogyny is still a global pandemic. When men are called privileged this is why. That ignorance is a privilege. Lucky you, that you haven’t experienced this constantly for your entire life. Want to create a “Men’s Club” community? We’ve all been living in it our entire lives. Nothing new to see there.
I still feel dirty thinking about the womensstuff community, though. The first time I stumbled in there I had no idea where I was and someone said “As a man…” and then asked a question, and they were told to be quiet. Women experience that constantly, and it’s worse for girls. So much worse. Especially if you are the chatty type of autistic that I am. Having experienced it, I would never subject others to that. I felt that interaction viscerally and immediately blocked the community. I understand wanting to have a safe space, and I do have those with certain private groups, but seeing that behavior was awful. Even queer spaces are welcoming to allies, and I feel inclusion of allies in all social matters is critical for progress to happen.
those things are not equivalent.
If by “those things” you mean a men’s club and a women’s club, that’s kind of my whole point. They should be considered the same but are not. Given men’s history of women’s oppression, there’s a lot we can’t do without the assumption of possibly being oppressive or sexist. Sometimes it’s hard being a man of one of the first generations in the starting centuries of women’s liberation (if it will even ever conclude).
Not as hard as women have had it of course, but if we want equality for all, that means we have to act the part, from both sides. 🙂
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It’s entirely about self identification. There’s no gender policing, they just kindly ask people who start their comments with phrases like “as a man…” or “not a woman, but…” to refrain from further commenting. They don’t even delete the comments unless the guy keeps going. Even still, inevitably if the post reaches the front page all the women in the comments will be drowned out by highly upvoted “as a man…” commenters. They just want to have a conversation without being shouted over.
exactly. this is the whole problem with trans stuff and gender essentailism.
who the fuck is to say what a woman is? a lot of people tie to totally arbitrary nonsense.
the concept of gender specific spaces is loaded with the notion that one sex/gender is worthy and the other in unworthy.
Bingpot.
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Yeah, you guys. We shouldn’t let women talk among themselves, they’re so irresponsible it ALWAYS leads to the EXACT SAME place. Let’s make sure we keep an eye on these females, just to make sure they’re not getting out of line. Pfft, “women only?” You’d think we’d learn by now! These women NEED a man to keep them track, we know what ALWAYS happens. Jesus christ.
Are you suggesting that women are such dainty and delicate creatures, they can’t handle a man’s internet? They need protected from the smarter and meaner 14 year old boys from 4chan?
Maybe the real solution is to just keep everything separate but equal? That famously works out well for everyone and never leads to any issues /s
It’s just…the internet I guess?
Go into the various “Ask” communities, and you’ll see things like this constantly:
Women of Lemmy, what’s something that…?
As a man, I …
Americans of Lemmy, what is your favorite…?
As a European, I…
Definitely mildly infuriating when people just butt in when they’re explicitly not the target audience of the question. If I’m somehow doing that with this reply, lol, I apologetically appreciate the irony.
It is significantly more likely to read:
“Europeans of Lemmy……?”
“As an American……!”
Is that why US political posts are always filled with people from other countries?
That’s because US politics is interfering in other countries.
every countries politics interferes with its neighbors.
USA just has global reach. So does China and a few other countries.
Same idea
I’ll take your word for it, though I assume it is the case. Like I said…it’s just the internet doing what it does (for better or worse).
“As an American” (though speaking only for myself) when I see those, I don’t even go into them because my opinion wasn’t solicited. I also don’t throw out my opinions in non-American news/politics communities for the same reason. Also, I wish that was a two-way street.
Also, I wish that was a two-way street.
That would be nice! I understand that everyone probably feels entitled to comment, given the amount of US-centric content one is bombarded with, and the shit-show our country has descended into.
Still, I see a disturbing number of upvoted comments that are just anti-Americans (i.e., not disparaging the government, but the citizenry). Shitting on people for where they were born is as valid as astrology, and nationality is not a good indicator of moral fiber.
As a professional opinionator, I…
you get paid for internet comments?
The issue is that people want a public forum to be private and controlled as such.
Like if you go to a public park and want to kick out anyone who isn’t a part of your party you want ot have there… the issue is you. it’s not the other users of the public park. but there are stupid and entitled people who would host a party in a public space and then get pissed off other people are using the space.
that isn’t how it works. if you want a private party you need to have it on a private piece of land. which is totally fine. just like you can geo-IP block access to your website if you wanted.
In a public park, you can absolutely ask random people to leave your party area. Not the park, but the space you are using. Double so if you’ve gone through the official channels to reserve that section.
And that goes both ways: If someone is having an event and one inserts themselves where they’re clearly not invited, then that person very much has issues respecting others’ boundaries.
It all boils down to people respecting each other.
you’d also be an asshole. you don’t own the park. you have no exclusive rights access it or use it.
and tying it up for personal use and going around kicking out other well meaning people is just you being a selfish dick.
if you want exclusive access… hold your party/event in a private space.
it’s not that hard of a concept… but people want the privileges of exclusivity without the costs. and get butthurt over it for some stupid reason. if i wanted a party that was exclusive to my friends/invitees only I would never hold it in a public space.
i’ve inserted myself into plenty of events at parks. usually it’s only the dipshit karen types that have an issue with it. most people don’t care because they aren’t anxious/controlling types and they understand that their event in a public park means they will have to be welcome to strangers. especially when your event spills over into a walkway or heavily trafficked space.
Ummm… what do you think the park picnic space rentals are?
Also, parks with camping have reserved spots.
Seems to me either you don’t get out much, or you are one of those assholes that refuses to leave a space someone already paid to rent.
That person is giving me “I’m not touching you! I’m not touching you!” vibes. lol.
They’re kind of being an asshole all over the thread. I don’t know why women asking men to not comment in a women’s forum has them so hot and bothered, but it sure has them on the warpath lol.
Probably 'cause they commented to the same thread.
It’s just…the internet I guess?
Yep, welcome to online social media.
I enjoy that community as a non-participant. A user’s decision to merely interact can reveal much more than they intended to reveal - super interesting to me. Just the existence of the community pits dudes with insecurities against their own lack of self control or social tact, for all to see.
Future me might comment there too quickly after overlooking the community name. I’ll get a warranted Tsk and I’ll see myself out. No big deal. It’s not a kick in the nuts unless I make it one.
I have seen men comment there, get the reminder, and then FLIP THE FUCK OUT. As if every part of the internet should have to put up with them.
A community like that is hard to monitor, and they are pretty chill about people making honest mistakes like coming in from /all. I feel like it’s obvious (or very quickly becomes obvious) which comments are mistakes, and which are butthurt males. They don’t seem to be hostile to the honest mistakes.
Whenever I see that happen, I think “wow, thanks for showing why this community needs that rule in the first place”. If dudes were more chill about women trying to build their own spaces, then perhaps it wouldn’t be necessary to have such a hard rule.
Nobody posted it!?
Oh good. I don’t follow this com, another comment tipped me off.
While I do enjoy a little bit of chaos and schadenfreude, it would be nice to block out user names. Call out the mistake, not the person.
Most people here are lovely, but it only takes one match to start a fire. Might as well address some bullshit in these comments since I’m gonna get trolled by incels anyway…
side note: I’m not a mod there.
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The women’s com is trans and non-binary inclusive. Anyone who feels at home there (and is respectful) is welcome.
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It’s not all bitching about men. Looking at the last twenty posts, one was about men and two were related to men. We talk about pads and health and essays and positivity memes and do fun activities on fridays.
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I support men making their own support groups. Although the internet itself often feels like a menfolk support group(to me,) I’m sure there are plenty of things an easy to find, curated space, could offer men who want to be just a little more vulnerable, knowing they would be supported by the mods if any toxic women came in to devalue their opinions and experience.
I support men making their own support groups. Although the internet itself often feels like a menfolk support group(to me,) I’m sure there are plenty of things an easy to find, curated space, could offer men who want to be just a little more vulnerable, knowing they would be supported by the mods if any toxic women came in to devalue their opinions and experience.
They should. the issue with this is they get branded as hate-groups or for ‘losers’. more or less automatically irregalrdless of what kind of community they are.
the bigger issue is that generally people think men are evil by default, and women are good by default. and that’s not a cultural assumption most folks are willing to look past.
Don’t make them a hate-group for losers, then? This speaks more about the places you’re hanging out at.
I don’t really know if I agree with your comment or the one you’re responding to. But here are my two cents: having good friendships with guys is difficult.
In middle-school (I’m European but using the American terms idk why) I had a number of good male friends but come highschool they all got addicted to drugs or video games and became a drag. I finally found friends in what one might call the “theater kids” group, which was exclusively female (there was a lot of stigma against these folks among guys and I burned a lot of bridges). The only close male friend I had left, I was only friends with through competitive sports and come 10th grade, it turns out he was a total toxic asshole (cheating on gf, racist, violent, etc; all developed over the course of maybe 4 months). So I end up having literally only female friends for the rest of highschool and much of college.
As a guy, that was kinda a bummer. It’s good to have some friends or really anyone close to you of the same gender, and I was a nerdy guy growing up with a single mother and no male friends or role models whatsoever. Luckily that turned me into a radical progressive and feminist, mostly due to my mother’s politics and hopefully common sense, and not a incel or neon-nazi.
This is just all to say that having a male support group is easier said then done. I don’t know if it’s because they really are losers—all the guys around me certainly felt like that—or because of social stigma against it. But teenage me definitely needed something like that when there wasn’t anything to be found.
Ultimately I turned out fine though, hopefully. I wonder, though, if some of the guys I knew in highschool would have been less icky if there had been less social pressure to basically be a toxic ass. I don’t know how to go about changing at least a century or social norms, but I think the people who got the worst of it were the guys I was friends with in middle-school, guys who were as smart and mature as my theater-group friends, but somehow pushed into toxic masculinity.
Ok, that’s a bit much for two cents. Hopefully I didn’t go on for two long… pretty bad pun, but I couldn’t help myself :P
The problem with men-exclusive groups is that they often focus on blaming women for all of their problems instead of trying to solve said problems. As an example, look at the idiot I’m replying to. The group doesn’t even exist and he’s already blaming women for its failure. So yes, having a male support group is very hard but that’s because men are losers, and it has nothing to do with women.
There are support groups for men out there that are not generally charectirized as toxic. Toxic folks may attack men for going to them, but I can tell you before I transitioned I used to go to one, and no one ever verbally attacked me for it.
A lot of male-only spaces descend into places to hate on women rather than proactively dealing with issues within our own community. It takes active moderation for these support groups to not become hate groups. If it stays focused on healthy self improvement (not hawking supplements and talking about a person being high or low “value”) and providing emotional support for men, it can avoid the “hate group” moniker.
The “loser” thing is actually a symptom of why we need spaces like we’re talking about. There will likely always be people out there who judge people for needing help and emotional support, especially men(thank you toxic masculinity), but the goal should be an overall less toxic society and greater acceptance that everyone needs help at some point.
Your “bigger issue” is not something I think I have experienced, I don’t think I’ve ever had someone assume I’m evil because I’m male. That sounds like an internal belief that you’re projecting on society, something that should be looked at in detail and questioned thoroughly in a therapeutic setting. Looking at other comments you’ve made on similar subjects, you seem to be someone who needs a place where your views can be safely challenged by reality, which is another way of saying we need better support groups for men like you, not just incel groups where you reinforce each other’s toxic beliefs.
I understand that this may come off as insulting, I just want you to know that that’s not my intent. I think you are lacking in self worth and that is leading you to project toxicity into the world. I don’t think you’re hopeless, mostly because I used to be on a similar course as you. I got therapy and learned to better love and value myself and I started seeing a lot more positivity in my interactions with people of all genders. The first step is wanting to change things.
I think the “men evil”, “woman good” is just worded to strongly but is generally true (not actually true, but people considered it to be true).
Its more “men dangerous”, “men threatening” and not “evil”. A man in a women’s bathroom is a threat. A women in a mans bathroom is there because there was a line for the woman’s bathroom. The actual reason for those scenarios does not matter, the man will be seen as an invasion and a perpetrator. I have personally experienced examples of neutral situations as well (going to the woman’s bathroom as a man without negative reactions) but the general discourse about the topic is pretty clear.
The other reply is kinda accurate but I just wanted to give lived experience that the way I get treated is as if I’m more dangerous and more aggressive by default (where obviously a woman will get taken less seriously and be more in danger by default), but it still feels pretty bad to have people feel less safe around me when I have done literally nothing to cause it. I’m not blaming someone for saying they feel less safe around men, I would even agree, but that means the reality is many men who have done literally nothing feel the distrust and unease. The outright hatred I think is an online only thing, I’ve never heard anyone say anything similar irl.
Also I might say if you really want to help them to not discount their experiences, that’s how we ended up with people like Andrew tate. The hatred does exist but almost always by a very loud very small minority online. And I’m sure the hatred does exist irl, from people who had really bad experiences with men, or they’re just jerks. That can be reality, and when you get blamed by those women it’s painful. Women are just people, and there are good and bad women because there are good and bad (or maybe just hurt) people.
the bigger issue is that generally people think men are evil by default, and women are good by default. and that’s not a cultural assumption most folks are willing to look past.
I consider myself a feminist and I vehemently disagree with that take, nor does it reflect in any way the commonly held views in the relevant communities.
Women and men are people. All people hold the capacity for good and evil within them. The real differences are 1) our respective socialization, and 2) the way we are perceived and treated by society based on our gender. That’s not an individual issue, but a systemic one.
I’ve been part of a few support groups for men that regularly received appreciation from women specifically because they were aimed at helping men in recognition of this fact, and thus didn’t revolve into inceldom and gender war nonsense.
Can you name some of the groups?
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You could be more supportive. Men have issues specifically hurting them too, and not dismissing that fact won’t make women’s issues less relevant.
Could we just be more supportive to each other?
Absolutely! I encourage support spaces for everyone. I’m calling out the irony that this user is up and down this thread arguing against the women’s community and spouting female priviledge ideology, while now complaining that men can’t have the same thing… or else people will complain and spout male priviledge ideology.
There are many ways that sexism hurts men, which is why I’m down with support spaces and actively discourage all men bullshit when I see it.
Claiming those spaces doomed from the start, because of people behaving exactly like Tittyfrog here, is bad faith as hell.
because that would be gay. part of the evil homosexual agenda we must stop!
it’s manly/womanly/hetero to beat up on other people and harass them for their issues and problems. or at least, to pretend that their problems are less than those of this more oppressed group. plus it feels really good to call people names rather than acknowledge their humanity and/or their fallibility.
but hey, we all know that billionaires are the most oppressed group on the planet. they are the true victims.
That first sentence is not a good look homie. I say this as a cis-het dude.
Edit: respect for not deleting the comment though.
You’re the only one here harassing people for their issues and problems and pretending they are less than those of a more oppressed group.
Wow. That was rude
Calling out shitty people isn’t rude.
oh hey, it’s the person what from the op screen cap. Here doing an encore performance. Everyone clap.
Thank you! I have mental health problems so even negative attention is fulfilling.
AND I don’t think rehashing someone’s minor mistake for public theater is cool without the user names removed. People were shitting all over him when he already got clapped back, so I said something.
I mean, there’s stuff like dull men’s club where it’s just dudes talking about average life stuff like buying new tools
I do enjoy dull men’s club
Is there a rule that women aren’t allowed to post there?
I support men making their own support groups.
While women are allowed to keep men out of their groups, it doesn’t work the other way around. Even gay men’s groups have trouble keeping invasive women from changing the nature of their groups.
As you can see, women have trouble keeping men out, too.
I’d like to see your data.
I’d like to see your data.
Just try finding a men’s opinion group that successfully bans women.
So you don’t have data.
Whataboutism is a non-sequitor that disrupts and discourages productive discussion.
I haven’t noticed anything like this online. I only one time saw a woman post in a MSM community and it was to ask a question, which was fine.
While I do enjoy a little bit of chaos and schadenfreude, it would be nice to block out user names. Call out the mistake, not the person.
Showing public information isn’t immoral: we should be able to simply link to online content. Gatekeeping public information & breaking accessibility to do it, however, is patronizing & wrong.
Never said anything about morality. I said would be nice.
@Wren @lmmarsano I think I might use that as my email signature
Then it would still be not nice (ie, patronizing & wrong) for the reasons stated in the rest of the message.
I disagree.
The disabled disagree with you.
People overthink this: just linking the web as designed is not that hard & it doesn’t break everything like accessibility/usability, digging for context, etc.
Why links?
Images of text break much that text alternatives do not. Losses due to image of text lacking alternative such as link:
- usability
- we can’t quote the text without pointless bullshit like retyping it or OCR
- text search is unavailable
- the system can’t
- reflow text to varied screen sizes
- vary presentation (size, contrast)
- vary modality (audio, braille)
- accessibility
- lacks semantic structure (tags for titles, heading levels, sections, paragraphs, lists, emphasis, code, links, accessibility features, etc)
- some users can’t read this due to lack of alt text
- users can’t adapt the text for dyslexia or vision impairments
- systems can’t read the text to them or send it to braille devices
- web connectivity
- we have to do failure-prone bullshit to find the original source
- we can’t explore wider context of the original message
- authenticity: we don’t know the image hasn’t been tampered
- searchability: the “text” isn’t indexable by search engine in a meaningful way
- fault tolerance: no text fallback if
- image breaks
- image host is geoblocked due to insane regulations.
Contrary to age & humble appearance, text is an advanced technology that provides all these capabilities absent from images.
I can agree everyone should get to enjoy equal access to the web and still believe censoring user names is nice. There’s gotta be a balance between accessibility and preventing harassment.
Have you asked OP to link the comment in the post text?
How about a transcript for the image? That way user names could stay blocked.
Have you asked OP to link the comment in the post text?
Yes: that would certainly reveal the names.
There’s gotta be a balance between accessibility and preventing harassment.
Easy: don’t harass. There are better controls on harassment by others than breaking accessibility & all the other considerations (usability, web connectivity, authenticity, searchability, fault tolerance) like reporting abuses.
Transcripts still break web connectivity (to explore context) & authenticity.
Your approach requests OP conduct/sustain definite harm[1] to speculatively prevent indefinite harm someone else won’t necessarily perform. How is requesting definite harm to an uninvolved party nice or right?
Everyone has moral agency to do the right thing here, and respecting that would be just.
impairing access ↩︎
- usability
-
I agree that the guy in the post is mildlyinfuriating at best, and much more likely a douche (never hear a woman use male as a noun like that, a very particular shibboleth). But I’m not sure I love. This community becoming half posts picking on specific users. Should we blur the usernames? Otherwise its an easy path to brigading and bullying.
Ya I don’t think folks need to be called out twice in a row in two different places. This would be a pathway for repeat offenders who refuse to acknowledge feedback perhaps?
Absolutely. In fact, I would extend that past the user, to the community as well. This is a gate-kept (correct spelling?) community; that’s fine and I don’t think the rest of lemmy should care, but I somehow regularly come across discussions about the community or related, with many people in the comments frustrated. That frustration is natural and isn’t going to go away anytime soon. I don’t care about said community, but it’s annoying to keep coming across posts like this.
These posts are clearly just causing argument over a fairly small, specific community that most people aren’t, I presume, involved in. I wish we could just leave it alone; it’s gate-kept, let’s honor that and also not talk about the community outside of said community (exception: meta-communities dedicated to stuff like that).
I’d be annoyed if people couldn’t stop talking about e.g. the Linux community outside of the Linux community as well, with tuns of the comments angry about the Linux community because they don’t use Linux and are offended that the community doesn’t welcome them talking about windows or complaining about Linux. Obviously the community is intended for Linux users and while it’s not actively gate-kept, windows users (not looking to transition) aren’t exactly welcome. Funny parallel there.
If I weren’t a Linux user, and had blocked that community, I would be very annoyed at regularly seeing meta-commentary about the community I don’t care about and can’t contribute too. This isn’t a perfect analogy, but you get the gist of it.
It just seems to draw purposeless attention and outrage to something people could otherwise probably ignore. That being said, this is all pretty minor; I would have ignored this post as well, if it weren’t for the below. Clearly a number of people didn’t ignore it though.
I don’t know, I’m just lying on my sofa with a cold, and yelling at the sky…
Edit: Jesus Christ how did that get so long. I need to get healthy and get a life again. Being sick sucks.
Should we blur the usernames? Otherwise its an easy path to brigading and bullying.
Nah, it’s a public, open forum. “Brigading” is reddit nonsense & bullies can be reported.
The real crime is breaking accessibility & usability by not linking to the comment.
I saw that post too. I noticed it was a woman-only space and muted it. Godspeed to them, people deserve to have communities like that.
Same. I have a bad habit of shitposting into a comment section only to later see which community it was in. So I preemptively blocked them. The only community I did so, not to protect myself, but others.
I saw this play out and there were more than one of these users breaking the rules on that sub. I guess it’s tempting to want to comment on a first page thread, but boundaries exist for a reason. I don’t really see women going into incel spaces, making incels uncomfortable. Still, what it looked like was most of these men knew this wasn’t a community for them, but figured that their comments were so invaluable, how could it exist without their imput. It’s pathetic.
i usually browse by all and have sometimes accidentally have commented on the women’s stuff comm. The first time I did it they left my comment up (I didn’t know it was exclusively a women’s comm I thought it was a focus on women) but gave me a friendly reminder that it is womens stuff. Anyways I’ve also almsot commented in that comm a few times and only noticed it after reading comments
ANYWAYS that was longer than I anticipated but all I can excuse is accidentally commenting, the actual behavior is not especially since they said it they knew it was a women only community. IMO that’s not ok since I’m sure of what OOP was doing was allowed or “as a man…” was allowed, 90% of the comm would be men effectively destroying the women only space
I can understand a mistake, and like I read on the original thread and on here; the mods are really nice. It just really shouldn’t happen more than once imo. I also feel bad for the mods literally trying to keep a space designated for woman safe. When I first saw the group, and the rules- It was confusing but I think it’s understandable. There’s not 100 of these spaces, and the rules should be understandable for anyone who thought of participating.
I agree the mods are lovely. IDR who the mod that replied to me was or even if they were a mod but they essentially said it’s ok mistakes happen just don’t let it happen again
I think they’re really good at differentiating people who accidentally step into the space like me, VS people invading like the person in the screenshot
But yeah if any women’s stuff mods are reading this, yall are great
I don’t really see women going into incel spaces, making incels uncomfortable.
Maybe they should, though I’m not sure that would discomfort incels.
Well, the fact that women are existing and don’t want to interact with any of them is already discomforting to them; so I don’t suppose it takes much.
You don’t think anyone trolling incels is female? That’s a poverty of imagination.
Exactly, dude is just proving them right that all men are self-important assholes. It’s like a woman going on /r/redpill and telling them they’re just angry, ugly geeks. Not helping. That being said I can’t help but think trying to create a safe space on a public space is never going to really work. I’d see more something like a private matrix space, or even properly authenticated IRC (that’s where I have my safe space about my addiction).
I can agree with that, but I think for privacy you lose some inclusivity. I understand you want to feel comfortable when talking about sensitive topics. On the other hand, is being a woman really such a sensitive topic that we shouldn’t be able to have a space that’s respected? It’s depressing that it’s not just intrinsically understood that these spaces are important, deserve to be public and proud, and really should be more prolific- but here we are.
That’s true. For privacy, you need anonymity, and that safe space I use is truly anonymous but as such it as its downsides. As much as we’d love to meet, or organize ourselves into a job seeking network because boy do many of us need it, or simply game online together… we can’t do any of that.
That’s rough.
I do think that’s the rule of life though, to get something you have to part with something. I bet it would be really nice to be friends in real life with the people on that matrix, but right now at least that group needs anonymity more. It doesn’t always have to be that way, life is odd and there are no concrete outcomes. Though for now, I’m sure you appreciate having somewhere to go to be able to talk about things that maybe most people wouldn’t understand or lay judgement upon. I genuinely wish you and everyone on that matrix the absolute best.
I blocked this community a while ago so I don’t accidentally view/comment on it
Same. I’m definitely guilty of glossing over community names, but fortunately saw that community the one time it took to block.
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Idk a men only community would probably be just trains, shoes, tanks, water heaters, and energy drinks, and I think I’d like it
I’ve seen dull men’s clubs on other platforms and was happy to see that female dull men were just as welcome to discuss garden tools and trains.
Is there a train community?
Some others too
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post about women’s only space
150+ comments, 50 downvotes
Close enough. Welcome back reddit
Yeah, I’m downvoting this shit. This is not mildly infuriating, this is just unnecessary ragebait and the fact that OP didn’t even blur out the usernames clearly shows their intention to go against rule 5.
I find it interesting how men regularly insert themselves into places or communities that are not designed for their specific label. I want to wonder what it is about women specifically that really makes men so uncomfortable about women having a place to discuss the world amongst themselves. But it doesn’t take long to see a common trend that appears which is a man is attempting to push their dominance over a situation.
Often times a comment begins with “As a man…” and it’s obvious the commenter is positioning themselves as an “authoritative” voice. Placing themselves higher than the women in a woman’s community. As if their words, experiences or perspectives hold more weight then the other people in this community not designed for men.
I often see this behaviour also within men’s communities such as Men’s Liberation. It confuses me greatly to see “As a man…” comments in the Men’s Liberation community because why do you need to declare your man status, in a men’s community, talking about men’s issues?? It seems to me it’s about placing their own thoughts, experiences and perspectives over the other, “lesser” men in the community. Often those comments ignore the message of the article or video while adding absolutely nothing additional to the conversation. They just stated they are men. That’s it.
The same men that argue against a segregated internet would not hesitate to join a men’s only community in real life or not. It’s not even a conscious effort for them to join a men’s only community. So when a community appears that doesn’t include them, I imagine it must feel insulting to be excluded this one time.
There’s over 8 billion people on this planet with over 8 billion different experiences, not everyone is going to relate to everything all the time. An individual’s experience is not universal. An individual’s experience does not give them authority over another groups experiences. Spending a life trying to dominate everything around yourself is an impossible task because there will always be people who will defy your authority. Nature in general doesn’t have a single fuck to give about one person’s dominance.
Good on the women who persist to exist in men dominant spaces. It’s a steep uphill battle. It’s an exhausting battle that seems never ending. I recently read how some of these women only communities operate behind the scenes and how they deal with certain issues. It showed how much effort they put into their community. I have an even greater appreciation for their existence now and I hope they continue to exist and grow.
women insert themselves into men’s spaces too.
why is it that you inherently value women over men?
women insert themselves into men’s spaces too.
Is this all there is to comment after I pointed out my observations about men dominating spaces? Should I have also pointed out how much more frequent it is for men to invade other people’s safe spaces and not other people invading men’s spaces?
why is it that you inherently value women over men?
Where did I say I inherently value women over men? I can appreciate others without putting others above me from a hierarchy perspective.
because that’s the default social perspective you seem to be implicitly reinforcing.
man bad. woman good.
In my life experience someone being an insufferable twat has nothing ot do with their sex identity and the distribution of twats is more on less on par among sexes. However, people generally give shitty women and their crappy behavior a way larger pass than men for the same offensive actions. And that’s institutionalized in our laws.
and as for the authoritative voice… that’s just what people do. pulling rank is part of the social game way all play to push ourselves up over one another. ‘as an x’ can be anything. it’s a rhetorical device.
because that’s the default social perspective you seem to be implicitly reinforcing.
If I was quoted directly I might be able to understand what I am implicitly reinforcing. Otherwise this seems like a personal attack and a distraction from the conversation I laid out in my first comment.
However, people generally give shitty women and their crappy behavior a way larger pass than men for the same offensive actions. And that’s institutionalized in our laws.
There are many laws in the world that vary greatly from region to region, are we totally sure women have more freedom in comparison to men in the way they act? I would like to see support for such a claim. A claim that involves half the population.
and as for the authoritative voice… that’s just what people do. pulling rank is part of the social game way all play to push ourselves up over one another. ‘as an x’ can be anything. it’s a rhetorical device.
Being social is not a game. It’s a thing people and also a wide variety of other animals do. It’s done for a wide variety of reasons. There are people who dedicate their lives to observe other animals and understand the complexity of being social. It’s not fair to reduce 8 billion people to a single category from a single person’s social experience.
That sucks that people have to experience social moments as a constant struggle to push themselves over each other. It’s definitely not the only way to live. There are communities online and offline, past and present that are able to exist without constant conflict within their social circles or communities. It involves being open and willing to accept others just as they are. If someone does not want to be open or accepting, then of course they will be angry or miserable.
Personally, I’ve made efforts throughout all my life to distance myself from people who think being social is a game. Today I surround myself with people who caring and loving without the need to be dominant over each other. It’s possible with a lot of work and persistence. I could blame others for feeling miserable but then I would never ever be happy.
Is this all there is to comment after I pointed out my observations about men dominating spaces?
Yeah, it is.
In a post with multiple people talking about how often men are inserting themselves in communities not meant for men, it would be nice to have some sort of supporting evidence to the to the claim that women are inserting themselves in men’s spaces.
A few words doesn’t really give context or support for such a claim.
I forgot that community existed. Segregation gives me the ick to such an extent I blocked it. I think it’s the only non-german-language community I’ve blocked.
A publicly visible forum isn’t a safe space. I can go to a discord channel for that. I would never think to tell someone to shut up because of physical characteristics. That’s precisely how social poisons like transphobia propagate. Could Elliot Page post there? What about Hunter Schafer? What about enbys? Jack Haven? Do we demand genital inspections like MAGA gestapo? Would you exclude my partner for failing to pass some feminine-enough test?
Segregation of public and publicly visible places is fundamentally and ethically wrong. I will help build the louisettes to dismantle the patriarchy, but I won’t exclude people even their “type” has traditionally held a position of privilege. It’s not right and it makes us the baddies the misogynistic claim we are.
My point is, I don’t like anything about this. ESH. I don’t support or endorse any of this, from the community to the alleged interlopers. It’s all wrong.
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Thank you, I didn’t realize that. My only experience was stumbling into a post some time ago and seeing someone asking a question being told to shut up because they started the question with “As a man…”. Seeing that was genuinely triggering for me.
While knowing it’s trans inclusive does make me feel better, this still reminds me of the ally debate we had in the queer community 20-30 years ago. Queer spaces should be welcoming to allies but allies must be aware that there are certain expectations for them. There is still zero tolerance for anyone that steps out of line. I think that has worked very well and won us a lot of progress and unity and support and love and acceptance, which is what I want.
I’m always torn about these things. I love the idea of having women-centric spaces where we can be ourselves without masking. I want that. But I can’t resolve the ethics of excluding allies, and so it’s not something I can personally justify being involved with. I don’t want people to be treated like that or excluded because of their sex or gender. I’ve lived through that and it’s awful.
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If only they had it explicitly laid out who is allowed to comment.
…oh wait, they do. So your “transphobia” strawman is entirely baseless.
We are fully allowed to read it, just don’t post. Reading it is very insightful.
What community is that?
I’m not sure the specific name of it. Something like “women only” but I’m not finding it in search. I browse lemmy by all, so it comes up every now and then for me.
X only communities shouldn’t be publicly viewable.
If they’re not publicly viewable, how do you expect people to know to look for them? How many communities / subreddits have you become a part of because you saw a post from it crop up on your feed?
Reddit or Lemmy isn’t a great to lace for private communities. If you want to be restrictive of who can participate go to a service that supports it like discord. If you want people to join your X only thing that is a you problem, it’s not on everyone else to help you with it.
It’s a public community - anyone is welcome to read the content. They only ask that people with the specific lived experience comment in the threads. If you’re not interested in the content then, like the rest of Lemmy, it’s on you to block it.
It’s not public if you block participation.
i love how this common sense reply is downvoted because it isn’t agreeing with the weird popular sentiment here that you should be able to take public space and make exclusive rules about who can use it.
also the hypocrisy of the reactions if the community in question was male only and women participating against the rules would be see as heroic instead of transgressive.
tons of FB and reddit communities are private. you can see they exist from search but you can’t access content unless you join
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Right, women can only exist in exclusive environments.
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Where’d you get that stat? That feels high. I certainly have never been asked to show my penis on Lemmy or anything like that. The signup thing also doesn’t ask for gender.
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These will always be challenging topics for sure :-)
I love a bit of statistics to be honest. If you look at general web use of men versus women, it’s actually fairly close: 65 percent of women are online, versus 70 percent of men.
There are obviously some discrepancies to be found, for example in less developed countries, women are online a lot less.
If you look at platforms, men certainly are a majority on all of them - which makes sense, since we obviously outnumber women online in general. But the gap tends to be smaller than most tend to think.
For example, Facebook is 43 percent women, 56 percent men. Reddit is around 65 percent male.
Now, Lemmy might be a bit more niche which attracts a bit more men. But I imagine women will certainly be more than 6 percent here if we did a proper, honest platformwide survey.
I imagine the male-centric feel of these platforms is more determined by amount of posting and engagement. If men outpost women 2 to 1 for example, it’s going to feel way more like a guy place. I also imagine many women don’t feel like pointing out that they are women for obvious reasons, further skewing our perception. We think the person on the other end is male, and since they post nothing to the contrary, our assumption must be correct. Even if it isn’t.
I’d certainly love it if women felt safe enough to share their perspective without fear of being harassed. Even if it’s only 1 in 100 men doing it, it only takes 1 to ruin your day I imagine…
As a man… just stating that it has nothing to do with the rest of my comment, but when I see those communities I just filter and move on. I do the same for all the gross *Moe communities with cartoon children dressed inappropriately.
Just FYI, those are almost all on the same instance, and you can block that instance as a whole. It’s dedicated to anime, so there’s not a ton of collateral damage.
If you block the instance then you block legit communities too though
Yes, but that’s only an issue if you are interested in those other communities. In this case, the instance is dedicated to anime, so it’s only an issue if you want to browse those other anime communities.
Reading this as a self hoster: god damn it, is there ANOTHER fucking instance I need to defederate?
