Economic concerns and growing disenchantment with both parties is draining support for Trump among Gen Z young men, a key bloc of support during the 2024 election

Male Gen Z voters are breaking with Donald Trump and the Republican party at large, recent polls show, less than a year after this same cohort defied convention and made a surprise shift right, helping Trump win the 2024 election.

Taken with wider polling suggesting Democrats will lead in the midterms, the findings on young men spell serious trouble for the Republican Party in 2026.

Younger Gen Z men, those born between 2002 and 2007, may be even more anti-Trump, according to October research from YouGov and the Young Men’s Research Project, a potential sign that their time living through the social upheavals of the Covid pandemic and not being political aware during the first Trump administration may be shaping their experience.

  • GutterRat42@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago

    My sister (F 22) voted for Trump over taxes, Haitian and Venezuelan immigrants. She is 1st gen, born of 2 immigrants who also voted for Trump. Every time I present new evidence of how bad Trump is, she pulls ChatGPT and “debunks my lies” with nicely crafted confirmation bias prompts. If you all know how to get through to GenZers, I am listening.

    • kescusay@lemmy.world
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      Ask her to read the links from her ChatGPT queries with you. Do it together. Show her how ChatGPT is confidently and convincingly lying to her. And each time she comes back with another result from a biased prompt, do it again. Eventually she’ll at least stop trying to convince you that ChatGPT knows all, out of embarrassment.

    • big_slap@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      have the AI cite it sources for the claims it makes, and read through those sources. ask the AI what information it used in the source to come up with its statement.

      using chatGPT in this way is like how I used Wikipedia growing up: just pull up an article on something, check out what citations an article had, and walk it backwards from there

      • When searching something online, I already many times came across AI written articles being quite high. So now it’s possible LLM will just cite another LLM which got its content from an LLM written response on Reddit.

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          These ChatGPT articles are ruining the internet, it’s almost all I can find now when searching for information.

          I ask a question in google and then get sent to a website which has a novel about why my question is a good question and then gives the simplest 5 outcomes/solutions (i.e. did you turn it off and on again?) with zero photos or diagrams or anything and it’s just a giant waste of my time.

          I only need to open a webpage for like 5 seconds before I know it is going to be worthless.

          Is there a way to blacklist a web domain from ever popping up in your Google search results again?

    • sauerkrautsaul@lemmus.org
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      my dude, you have a sister who is going to chatgpt for facts, Id feel that she’s in a lot more trouble than being a trump supporter.

    • fizzle@quokk.au
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      Ask what it would take to convince her.

      She will probably require something which is just not practically possible.

      If her assertion is not falsifiable, then its based on faith. You can’t argue with that.

      edit: I’ve thought about this a little bit more and realised that this approach won’t work with something nebulous like “my sister supports the Trump presidency”. It’s a good tactic with specific beliefs like “the Earth is flat”. Subjective statements like “Trump is the best president” are subjective statements of opinion.

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        8 months ago

        This is a bit disingenuous. Convincing me that Trump is not an idiot would also require something that is not practically possible (namely him not being a total imbecile).

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          I think it’s implied to ask for what it would take to convince you if it were true. If you witnessed trump in a non prepared debate making salient points, clever logic and such, you figure he wasn’t actually an idiot, right?

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          If it were true that Trump is not an idiot then evidence of that would be practically possible.

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        No problem. According to their bubble, that only happens to the bad people that didn’t follow the rules. Every single one deserved it in their view.

        I’ve spoken to Trump supporters who are themselves illegal immigrants (overstayed visa). They don’t see the problem.

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        From another who has 1st gen relatives who literally entered illegally and who also voted Trump, the following are some reasons in no particular order. They fully believed he would only deport “the bad ones.” They STILL voted for him despite one part of the family who is still not fully citizens.

        They still don’t believe non-criminals are being kidnapped, they still think he’s a good businessman, and still think he’s a great president.

      • CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world
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        Or when they start trying to denaturalize everyone not sufficiently white based on quotas set by that dickhead Stephen Miller…

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      You can’t help morons unfortunately.

      My father is Gen 1 of immigrant parents. His parents HATED Trump. Yet he voted for Trump all three times.

      I have a GenZ sister-in-law that uses ChatGPT for relationship advice. Like copies and pastes responses from men into ChatGPT and asks what they’re “really saying” or “what their intentions are”, instead of you know, JUST ASKING THE PERSON OUTRIGHT.

      We’re fucked

    • mrgoosmoos@lemmy.ca
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      tell your sister that she’s a fucking dumbass for thinking a chatbot is a source, tell her that all a chatbot does is aggregate data on the internet, and that if she doesn’t smarten the fuck up then she’s going to be a failed unhappy outcast in life that is hated by successful people and shunned by her family

      • UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml
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        8 months ago

        if she doesn’t smarten the fuck up then she’s going to be a failed unhappy outcast in life that is hated by successful people and shunned by her family

        Shit, I’m already all these things. I wonder what would happen if I used AI.

    • circuscritic@lemmy.ca
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      You have two choices:

      Put her down or call ICE.

      The former is more humane, but the latter would be a lot funnier.

      But seriously, I would just disconnect, or at most, I would ask her to have the chatbot provides sources and then ask her to pull them up.

      If her learning that it’s making up sources doesn’t get through to her, I wouldn’t try anymore. Just accept that she’s either going to have to come through it on her own, or she’ll just progressively get worse and worse, and you’ll have to decide if you want to stick around for that, I wouldn’t.

        • shawn1122@sh.itjust.works
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          Some liberals enjoy the idea of ICE being called on an immigrant that supported Trump or MAGA. America is such a police state that having a paramilitary presence in its cities is not consistently a problem for either side of the political spectrum there.

      • zbyte64
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        2020: you have your facts and I have my facts

        2025: you have your prompts and I have my prompts

    • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      Ghost her, go no contact, on moral grounds.

      Sorry, you support a criminal fascist pedophile warmonger.

      Thats bad.

      You’re bad.

      Bye!

      … Its really not that complicated.

      You can make it complicated and go into ostracization as a means of effectint social change, of cutting someone off being a very costly form of socially signalling how serious you are about this…

      But its really not that complicated.

        • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          Hah, well, given how frequently mine has directly ruined my life, betrayed me, and more recently, attempted to kill me, I guess I’ll take that as a compliment.

          Yeah, it would be a terrible weakness if I still loved or attempted to have any contact with a bunch of dysfunctional, violent, abusive narcissists.

          There’s a difference between ‘haters’ and ‘have directly tried to destroy you, multiple times’.

          And thats just how fascists ultimately act, the behavior they ultimately enable against their outgroup, or, as in this and every other ‘leopards ate my face’ type story… themselves, their ingroup, their own family.

          But hey I guess if your family is just ‘fascist-lite’, then I’m sure they’d never do anything to hurt you, right?

          Because theae morally bankrupt people, well, they love you, so its fine.

          Spoiler: If they’re actually fascists, they hate you and they want you to die.

          If they got into it as a fad, they’re too stupid to be trusted with any complex task, and will be that stupid again.

      • GutterRat42@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        I feel like that would do more harm than good. It would just validate her views that leftists and liberals are intolerant of other viewpoints. I want bridges.

        • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          Leftists are intolerant of fascists who want to kill and harm innocent people for no good reason.

          Please go actually read the wiki page on the Paradox of Tolerance.

          Its a bit of a misnomer, its not actually a paradox. The solution is do not tolerate the intolerant, otherwise the intolerant win.

          Liberals are tolerant of fascists, which is why fascists are able to thrive, liberals attempt to take them seriously, defeat them in the battle of ‘ideas’, do battle with them in conventional ways which they essentially always fail out, because facists don’t abide by the norms or civility politics that liberals build their entire political identity out of.

          Their whole thing is breaking from all the liberal norms and standards, and liberals basically just continuously act ‘shocked pikachu face’ and aghast at every horrific thing a fascist says or does… while not resisting them in any actually meaningful way.

          You can’t make a bridge to a fascist. Doing that makes you either not a leftist, or a very very stupid one.

          Just go look into the history of fascist movements, this same pattern plays out every time. Liberals make concessions to fascists and move to the right, increasing overall societal harm.

          Leftists either vehemently oppose the fascists, or, in some instances, they attempt some kind of anti centrist alliance with the fascists out of expediancy, and then they nearly all get literally hunted down in the streets by the fascists if they do succeed at knocking out the center.

          You can’t logic a fascist into not being a fascist.

          They’re delusional cult members, they have ‘alternative facts’, and when they tire with those, they’ll wrap around to some other avenue of discussion, lies you already debunked.

          The only thing that can stop them is either ‘impolite’ means of resisting them, or just hoping the internal contradictions of their movement lead to its eventual implosion… without causing too much damage.

          And they usually cause a very significant amount of damage by the time they metastasize, and afterward.

    • MountingSuspicion@reddthat.com
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      I’d love to pretend I have a tried and true method, but statistically I’ve hit more walls than bridges. The thing that works more often than others is finding something they care about that’s easily falsifiable and honing in on that. Do that a few times in a row and hopefully they see that they don’t actually know what they’re talking about because their politicians don’t want them to. One of the easiest for me has been to really explain the gun show loophole. Guns seem to be pretty important to people I interact with, even if they don’t own any. They really have no idea what gun laws are. One of the other more recent things is Hegseths changes and the Trump ballroom. Depending on how tech bro they are and how willing or able you are to keep them on topic, DOGE isn’t too bad, but it can get off track fast. If she’s spiteful, the new Trump accounts might be worth bringing up. It’s really not a bad idea, but that’s HER taxes going to a bunch of babies.

      • GutterRat42@lemmy.world
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        I asked ger how she would feel if ICE took our family members. She said that it would be sad, but that’s why we have laws. 😮‍💨

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        I was repulican christian in highschool, when Trump got elected and my church went MAGA, I started to ask a lot more questions. The scariest part about becoming woke is learning how much deception we’re constantly fed and taking the step to say enough is enough.

        People might be stupid, but they’re mostly ignorant.

      • fizzle@quokk.au
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        I think you’ll find that a large segment of the population did not in fact vote.

      • Janx@piefed.social
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        It literally did not. Even going back to just the last election (which is not where the problems started), people that stayed home could have prevented this.

        If “did not vote” had been a candidate:

        • dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          I voted. What more can I do? I cannot vote more. I am doing everything I can apparently. There’s not a single thing other than voting that will fix this, obviously.

        • BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
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          They both serve the same Sociopathic Oligarch bosses, but just like your workplace, some managers are cool, and some are total assholes.

          But if you want a new system, you need get rid of both managers, because just because one is somewhat better than the other, the ultimate goal to enslave and oppress is the same.

          We either need to force the managers to serve us, out of fear, if necessary, or we will bypass the “managers,” and deal with the problem at the source.

          And they won’t like that at all.

        • Zink@programming.dev
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          It reads to me like it’s meant to take down the “the left wing in America is still right wing in most of the civilized world” assumption that’s buried within the political alignment graph.

          And I think there’s also a potential disconnect where one party could be thinking “american democrats = right wing” while the other is hearing “individual leftists in america = right wing” which world be a lot more likely to elicit a response.

        • BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
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          Go for it, Brother! The Left needs to enthusiastically embrace propaganda in all its forms. That’s the ONLY reason that the Right has the power they do. They certainly didn’t gain power by telling everyone how they intend to enslave and oppress us, as they gleefully luxuriate in their open corruption.

      • ragebutt@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        With the exception of maybe lgbt rights and saying that they will raise taxes on the wealthy (but not actually doing anything meaningful, lip service only) what American politician of any party supports these positions?

        Also fwiw ubi ultimately is just a pittance to allow flawed power structures to be maintained. It’s a stopgap measure that keeps people like bezos and musk around but just softens their power, for now. “Give the peasants their meager wages so they’ll shut up” kind of thing. True equity means wrestling control of the means of production to workers to mitigate the power of those oligarchs for future generations, and not just until they decide UBI would be something that’s annoying to pay for

        • plyth@feddit.org
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          True equity means wrestling control of the means of production

          It’s one election away. The workers have the power to change it now and for future generations. Actually it’s the last time they will have that power. Once general AI exists that power will be gone forever.

          • BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
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            Valid. We haven’t lost yet, but they are trying to convince us that it is all over. We need to dissuade them of that opinion. Ruthlessly. Mercilessly.

              • BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
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                True, that’s Step 1, which is why I’m speaking out these days. We have to have our people fully mobilized by Election Day, and demoralize the MAGAs at the same time. We might not be able to convince them to vote for a Democrat, but maybe we can persuade them to not vote at all for pedophiles and criminals, which is the next best thing.

      • Aljernon@lemmy.today
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        A depressing number of people who are “right wing” will share socialist beliefs but totally shutdown if you mention “that’s socialism”.

        • Godric@lemmy.world
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          Just get in a tangent you both agree on, and mention that the politicians and billionaires who own them “would call that socialism”.

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    Gen Z want a radical. Far left or far right doesn’t seem to matter. I can’t blame them for that. Most of them will still say they supported Bernie - at least the podcasters they worship do. There is room for them on the left. Dems have to start by leaving the centrist DNC bullshit behind.

    • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world
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      they don’t want radical. they want jobs and a stabilized cost of living. they want to feel like they have a future.

      trump focused on economic issues, and got their votes. if the next democrats can push forward economic reforms that improve the economy… they will get the votes. Kamala absolutely refused to run on any agenda of economic reform and endorse Biden’s inflation economy.

      • zebidiah@lemmy.ca
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        Fair days wage for a fair days work IS radical in a world where 8 people hold 50% of the world’s wealth

          • Corngood@lemmy.ml
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            That really depends on how much things cost, whether you have a social safety net, etc.

            How about: is it more than 1% of what the CEO makes?

            • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world
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              the problem with ‘fair wage’ is ‘what things cost’ is subjective measure.

              i know people who make half what i make who have more than enough, and people who make 3x what I mean who feel they are struggling because they don’t own a 3 million dollar house.

              the objective facts of economics don’t have much weight when it comes to people subjective perception of their ‘needs’. and human psychology tends to adapt to whatever baseline is available. this is why the CEO making 150million doesn’t think they are wealthy, and will tell you how they are underpaid. it’s also established relative to your social peers.

              I never felt that I was ‘poor’ my entire life until I went to college and was informed I was poor, because objectively, I was. But since I grew up in a town in the bottom half of the economic ladder I was never exposed to the concept of wealth.

              • nomy@lemmy.zip
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                We’re all familiar with the tropes about finding happiness in poverty but “living wage” is an actual thing that can be calculated.

                https://livingwage.mit.edu/

                In my area, one of the cheaper ones in the nation, you need to make about $22/hr as a single person to cover food/rent/utilities/insurance/etc.

                If you want to debate the merits of “bagging groceries” as a long term job or how much one needs to have to be happy that’s a different discussion but it’s pretty clear what people need to be paid in order to survive.

                • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world
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                  my local city subreddit has that calculator posted on like a monthly basis. and 90% of the responses are how the basic living wage it cites is a poverty wage. of course, it’s not.

                  people aren’t rational. someone making 22/hr may objectively be able to meet basic needs, but it doesn’t mean they are living ‘well’. as well is entirely subjective to one’s perceived needs. and frankly, as someone who lives below my means for decades in order to establish financial stability… I dont’ really meet many people who share my attitude outside of the FIRE types. My perception of ‘need’ is far less than the vast majority of my peers. For example I don’t need luxury products to feel my life is ‘good’. many of my peers debt-spend rather than living without them and their version of a ‘living wage’ is a top 1-2% income.

                  it also doesn’t account for other factors, like family wealth. 22/hr is a much different wage to someone who has 50K in student loan debt, than to someone who has a 500K trust fund.

      • RubberElectrons@lemmy.world
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        This was always true. I want someone who works for the working man and woman. I don’t care if we become socialist, stay in capitalism, what the fuck ever other choice: we as people need to feel taken care of. Any system that ignores its people is doomed.

        Just as important is explaining to people why some choices need to be made that we may not agree with. Raising the gas tax? I’m ok with it, because I already know it’s how we pay for our roads. But what about my less aware neighbor? If they simply see the rate jump, and don’t know why, it leaves the door wide open for a conspiracy schmuck to step in with a ragebait explanation.

        • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world
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          Yeah, but you’re being reasonable. Most human beings aren’t reasonable. They are not thoughtful or pragmatic. Only a small percentage of people are well-mannered and educated enough to even understand the basics of macroeconomics and public policy that often drives it.

          They are driven by raw emotion that is often entirely disproportionate to the thing it’s responding to. Like your example of someone flying into a rage over a minor tax increase. And now in 2025+, these people think they are all geniuses due to a steady diet of social media that constantly reinforces their ignorant and rage. And they block and assault anyone who dares try to dispute their rage and ignorance.

          I was in thread about credit ratings yesterday and all the smart factually accurate commentary was down-voted, and all the ragebaiting ignorance conspiracy nonsense was heavily upvoted.

          • RubberElectrons@lemmy.world
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            Sure, but at least reminding people of why at the time leadership announces a change removes a lot of ambiguity.

            Definitely doesn’t solve the problem by itself, but it’s not much work to include… Presuming the law/change in question was written with a real reason in mind.

      • solduc@slrpnk.net
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        I think GenZ might just be stupid if they thought Trump had a more economic reform agenda than Harris. But yeah blame Harris for that too.

        • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world
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          trump ran on economic issues. they weren’t stupid. they listened to what he said. they just didn’t think he was lying.

          ‘no tax on tips’ was resonated with a lot of young service workers. he kept hammering home how he’d stop inflation, etc.

          • solduc@slrpnk.net
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            Fair enough. You are right that “ran on” and actual policy are two different things. Pretty clear that Harris fumbled her economic messaging when it comes to what GenZ were wanting to hear I guess.

            • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world
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              Yes, sadly a lot of folks can’t grasp that distinction and get really upset about it.

              What was really interest to me was listening to post polling interviews with voters on election day. They were very consistent in why they voted for Trump. Young and old alike.

              It find the whole thing just… sad because it’s so obvious but the democrats can’t seem to figure it out. Obama and Clinton won on the same issues, economics. H Clinton’s campaign was equally economically tone-deaf as Kamala. So was Kerry in '04.

      • Pyr@lemmy.ca
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        I think it’s a terrible idea to run a sitting vice president as the candidate for the next election.

        Since people often want change, they will ask “what will you do different?” And the VP will have to respond “Nothing” otherwise people will ask “Well, why aren’t you doing that now?”

        It will be interesting to see how Vance responds to these questions if they decide to run him to take over for Trump.

    • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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      I think most people want a radical.

      The current system isn’t working for the majority of normal people.

      They’ll vote for change every time, and never get it.

  • 800XL@lemmy.world
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    It’s amazing to me to see how gen z acted after the neo-liberal boomers destroyed the economy and shit all over millenials. Millenials were blamed for everything. I’d have thought gen z would have gone hard left after seeing how their siblings and even in some cases parents were treated, but instead they were easily manipulated by russia and 4/8chan into stupidity. Instead we got gen z who was already fucked over by trump once to vote for him.

    Every generation learns too late that old white men are not their friends and don’t have their best interests at heart. Only with gen z it mattered more than ever in history and they blew it.

      • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world
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        and the rub is to understand this… you’d have to have your foot in both feeds. which is difficult to do unless you do so deliberately. which 99.9% of people aren’t ever going to do.

        any if you are not part of the bias-confirming group, you will be harassed, reported, and banned. people don’t want to hear narratives outside of the ones they have already chose as ‘truth’.

        just the fact that i go and check the headlines of Fox news, for example, would makes me an awful human being corrupted by evil, according to the lefties. You can only be truly left if you remain ‘pure’ and live in your bubble and never interact with someone outside of it.

        • Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works
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          8 months ago

          I guess it depends on how much they dip their feet in. I have seen people who hate watched Fox News long enough that they became fans and eventually Republicans.

    • BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
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      8 months ago

      They made a mistake in their first big election, and now many seem to realize how fucked over they were. That will stick with them for LIFE, and many will never trust the right for the rest of their lives.

      Don’t forget, many were voting at 18/19, only knowing life in their hometown. In 2028, many will be graduating from college, and they’ll have had a much wider experience with other people and ideas, and won’t tolerate MAGA bullshit as easily, especially when they recognize that MAGA policies are intended to oppress them for the rest of their lives.

    • plyth@feddit.org
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      8 months ago

      easily manipulated by russia and 4/8chan

      Are you sure that’s by Russia and not some further manipulation?

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      8 months ago

      Not only did they not research anyone before going into the voting booth, they weren’t involved in any step of the process. If they’re so mad about stuff why aren’t they doing the groundwork or even participating in primaries?

      • Krono@lemmy.today
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        8 months ago

        The last real Democratic Party primary was in 2020.

        Most of the people we are talking about were literally too young to participate in a meaningful primary.

        They had no opportunity to be involved in the process, and now they are being blamed for not participating. That’s the modern Democratic Party in a nutshell.

        • JasonDJ@lemmy.zip
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          2020 was barely a primary tho. Between COVID being a brand new thing and half the candidates throwing in the towel on Super Tuesday, it shouldn’t count.

    • arcticx@lemmy.ml
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      8 months ago

      Screeching at people who didn’t vote for the incumbent party running a k-shaped economy and funding a genocide isn’t going to get you anywhere. You can’t run on “oh this guy is so bad” if you spent 4 whole years doing nothing about the guy who is so bad and expect to win, especially if you start racing him to the bottom on immigration and foreign policy.

    • Godric@lemmy.world
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      Tell someone “fuck you”, declare them delusional morons and blame everything wrong with the world on them

      they don’t vote for you

  • switcheroo@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago

    Not for any altruistic reasons, probably because no woman will touch them once they find out they’re a mysogynistic rapist-supporting bigot…

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    8 months ago

    Not too long ago I read that young men are becoming right wing and are becoming more religious. But then I see articles like the above or articles saying that fewer and fewer people are religious. So I wonder what the reality actually is.

    • ImNotThatPokable@lemmy.world
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      Maybe more women are dumping religion. This would be the natural backlash from taking their reproductive rights away, because it’s very common to become sceptical when some ideology starts to hurt you.

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      You should be careful with how you interpret the religiosity data. Often people interpret people responding “None” to the question of “What is your religion?” as these people being atheists, but overwhelmingly that is not the case. I believe it’s like over 70% of “religious nones” (the term used for people who respond this way on surveys in academic contexts) believe pretty strongly in the supernatural, and many believe in the existence of God and/or spirits that govern the world. When people say they don’t belong to any religion on surveys, they apparently most often mean they don’t belong to a particular organized religion rather than being atheist.

    • BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
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      That’s almost certainly because somewhere in your life, someone taught you Critical Thinking Skills, and you can recognize bullshit propaganda almost instantly.

      Learning Critical Thinking Skills is as important as learning to read, and basic math. Conservatives hate it, because it interferes with their propaganda, and are trying to ban it from the public school curriculum (even though it’s heavily stressed in private schools, because it’s an essential leadership skill).

    • ApatheticCactus@lemmy.world
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      Just be wary and remember that those behind these moves are not necessarily democrat or republican. They have contingency plans for whatever party is in power, and they will attempt different strategies that may be designed to work on you.

  • Scrambled Eggs @lazysoci.al
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    8 months ago

    Any reason for this? Higher education? Developing brain? I mean, whatever the reason, it’s good. I’m just curious as to why.

    • BanMe@lemmy.world
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      Half of Gen Z doesn’t remember a time when Trumpism wasn’t normal. They don’t know how the economy should be, how diplomacy should be, anything. They just heard Trump saying Biden was a pussy, and Biden acted like a pussy, so they believe Trump was the only reliable narrator. It took these people a great deal to overcome it - I heard a lot of younger people saying Trump was the peaceful, anti-war President. Now that they realize that was a lie, other dominoes are falling.

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        This is the thing I fear with autocratic/fascists in this country. If your normalize it to the following generations they’ll accept it. Why it’s important to at least be loudly against it even if it’s online. Don’t let them ever control the narrative exclusively.

      • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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        I heard a lot of younger people saying Trump was the peaceful, anti-war President.

        This is such a big factor, imo.

        The democrats refuse to budge from this neocon position of “benevolent interventionism.” and Trump has been able to attack them over both parts of it, which allows him to appeal both to libertarian types who want to stay out of conflicts because “the government doing stuff is bad,” and to nationalist types who want to just overtly plunder everywhere (with his actual policy being the latter). Meanwhile the democrats just cast anyone who disagrees with them on foreign policy as a Russian bot. They’re stuck in the early 2000’s where there was overwhelming bipartisan support for “bringing democracy” to the Middle East, and they seem think if they can just pick up the “moderate Republican” neocon voters who definitely exist and still believe in that project, then they’re sure to win.

        The effect is that they fail to capitalize on the ideological divisions that exist on the right. The actual Republican voters that there would be a chance of peeling off are the libertarian anti-war types, but that would require actually trying to appeal to anti-war voters instead of treating them with contempt.

        • Aljernon@lemmy.today
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          I don’t fully agree. There’s plenty of people on the Near Right that are primed for switching to Democrat as both parties marched to the Right. Some already have. The ones who haven’t are either held back by social pressure or Democrats position on Guns.

          • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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            Clinton and Kamala both tried to appeal to that “near right” and failed. Social pressure isn’t going to magically disappear, I can agree with the point about guns but that just ties into what I’m saying. If anyone on the right can be appealed to, it’s the isolationist, pro-gun libertarian types. You will never win the nationalists, they already have a party that is giving them exactly what they want.

      • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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        People get their information from 30 minutes of Facebook memes every sunday night while getting ready for bed.

        Yup. People aren’t responsibly informed and I don’t see this changing without a major push to revamp our educational system to include courses in critical thinking and how to deal with misinformation. And I don’t see that happening. So I think we’re pretty well fucked.

    • BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
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      Charlie Kirk was a big gathering point for that age. Without him, they are rudderless, until somebody steps up to replace him, which will take time.

      Until then, it’s a perfect opportunity for Dems to employ their own propaganda, and steer these people in a better direction. Give them a strong warrior leader they can believe in, who isn’t an obvious phony like Newsome, and they’ll switch their allegiance. But the window of opportunity is short, and now that they see the momentum shifting their way, the Dems have to move fast to recapture them for the Midterms.

      It’s very possible to flip these voters, which could be most helpful in flipping barely red districts, but I also have great confidence in the Dems screwing up this golden opportunity.