Which is kind of wild, because I don’t know if a steak has ever looked better on film than the cut shown in this scene. I understand that sentiment may not hold true for folks on vegetarian or vegan diets based on ethical grounds, but that may as well be the Platonic ideal of “fancy steak”.

Funner fact: the actor in the original Oldboy is also vegan, but he still ate that live octopus.

Just realised looking at this that it’s the same actor as Ralph from The Sopranos. I’ve watched both recently too!

Yeah, you can’t say the conditions we’re subjecting livestock to is “good”. You don’t give up your rights to eat bbq if you admit it.

Non-vegans should support vegans

What really drives me mad is that there’s a dead simple solution - lab-grown meat - that can obviously be the best of both worlds with a bit more development (and in fact is being commercialized already), but is being lobbied against by the meat industry precisely because it’ll be cheaper and better. And nobody seems to be talking about it.

Ecofeminism has a lot to say about meat/masculinity/fascism.

My meat eating isn’t even close to being tied to my masculinity. I hardly even care how myself and others perceive my masculinity.

My meat eating is nearly entirely tied to my enjoyment of the taste of meat.

Lower demand for animal products lowers prices for others.

Is it awful of me to have stopped eating meat from animals I think are beautiful and sweet, like cows and pigs, but still eat meat from some animals I think are ugly and mean, like chickens and sheeps?

What are your thoughts on someone going into the woods and catching wild game?

This is the best advice you can give someone imo. Im like 75% vegan, still have eggs and bacon on the weekends, some chicken with dinner, some other stuff here and there. But mostly its beans/tofu and rice with veggies.

Some people think they have to give up everything all at once right now and of course that seems overwhelming… because it is.

One change I made early on was to look for ways to shorten the distance from my food, become familiar with how it gets to my plate and just keep higher standards overall for things like meat.

The experience of buying meat in particular can be heavily abstracted and sanitized. Every big chain supermarket has an area with rows and rows of perfectly packaged cuts. There is not very much information at all about most of it.

Pick up a Styrofoam tray of boneless skinless chicken breasts from the one or two giant conglomerates. Each package is wrapped in plastic. They all have very consistent appearance, evenly colored and equally plump. They are completely odorless. It is chicken but it’s very very far away from being a chicken. It’s been through a lot of hands and miles. You’ve already hit a wall, though, because you’re not getting much more information about that meat besides maybe some marketing terms and a picture of a taco or some shit like that. You’re being sold the idea of it. All of the horrible stuff is obscured. Even the neutral stuff like what it ate, if it was ever sick or given any medications. All that stuff gets pushed into the memory hole and is supposed to never reach the consumer. If you become too curious, and start digging into it on your own, you naturally end up consuming less. They know this.

Contrast that with what’s produced more locally. Try to figure out who in your area is producing with the goal of building up an actual local foodway sustainably. How close can you get to identifiable people actually producing your food? Can you access a co-op, farmers market, CSA?

Folks who do things like regenerative farming and try to build up their soil tend to be very passionate and like to share about it. Visit a nearby farm or ranch. Many have small retail operations. They may deal in larger quantities than you’re used to. Find out the process. If an animal is involved, how is it cared for and what does it do all day? Is the animal improving its surroundings or degrading them? Are you willing to meet your food face to face?

IMO if you’re going to continue eating meat, you owe it to your food to unpack this stuff, examine how it makes you feel to literally “know how the sausage is made”, form deeper connections with your food and community, and find opportunities to make positive changes to your buying habits.

ETA:

not everyone will be able to stomach peeking behind the curtain. But that’s actually good. It means you’re a compassionate human being, and that feeling can be harnessed and channeled into better personal choices.

I’m just tired of seeing all meat-eating equated, too. The Styrofoam chicken is in a completely different category from a fresh whole chicken acquired locally from, say, a nearby farm that prioritizes regenerative practices.

Compare the true costs and impacts of each. You might forget they’re the same species. It turns out that, if you simply let a chicken just… do its chicken things and provide it with what it already knows it needs to satisfy its drives, its natural behaviors and outputs can be directed to benefit the rest of the system. It’s not easy. This is a complex system, and there’s a lot to learn. But if you can get it right, the chicken is healthy and satisfied, it improves other parts of the system during its life, has at least net-zero if not positive net impact environmentally, and you still get to sell it at the end if that’s what you want your operation to be.

The best arguments for not eating meat disagree specifically with what happens at the end of, e.g., a meat chicken’s life. I know not to argue against that. It’s a principled moral stance.

There will probably always be people who want to eat meat. It is very deeply ingrained human impulse. I think it desperately needs to be scaled way way back. The big players in the conventional national industry need to be seized and taken apart, yesterday. Everything good and useful there needs to be pried out of their hands, brought local, and distributed among the people.

If the tables were turned, and local, sustainable models were the norm, we’d eat way less of it, feel way better, and have the community profit instead of extracted from. “Big chicken” would not exist like it does now. We’d be having completely different conversations.

While I agree with the sentiment, I still struggle a bit with this rhetoric. When it comes to misogyny or rasicsm you wouldn’t tell someone to just try and do less of it. The meat & dairy industry is still a whole lot of abuse and exploitation, and I think everyone is probably on board with having nothing to do with it. The friction is just too high I guess.

Nah

to a vegan it kinda sounds equivalent to “just don’t be racist most days of the week, thats a good start”

“But it’s awkward in social settings”, “What if I’m going out to eat”, “What if it’s the only option”, “What if I am trying but don’t realize something has an animal product”

Idk dude then eat meat in those settings I guess. 95% of your food is consumed outside of those settings so just be 95% vegan or vegetarian.

It’s really beef that is the vast majority of emissions just cutting that out of your diet gets most of the environmental benefits of vegetarian.

Obligatory mention that the “carbon footprint” is a tool of the billionair class to put all the blame that belongs to them on us, the consumer without any real power in the markets.

So the best way to cut down on carbon footprint is to be politically engaged. Without systemic change your personal sacrafice will not really do anything.

In this economy I’m buying less meat just because it’s so expensive

Not really. It comes from the position that animals are people, or at least more worthy of consideration than the wants of humans. Neither of which are true in the eyes of basically everyone. Now arguing against factory farming seems to actually be unassailable.

The age old question. Do people make decisions using reasoning? Or do they make decisions based on emotions, and rationalise them afterwards using their reasoning?

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Your getting ready for your moment to strike. I believe in you.

Do you think there might be a connection between “I like annoying vegans” and them reacting negatively, that says more about you than it does them?

I’ve never met a vegan like that, but I have met dozens of dickhead schoolboy bullies who think eating meat makes them manly, and pwning vegans with their hilarious same two jokes every time even more so

The other middle schoolers must think you are a bad ass.

I’ve been around a LOT of vegans and I have never heard those terms… is this an online thing?

I dunno why, but now Im really craving a good steak.

It’s usually vice versa: someone who chose not to eat something is disturbed by anyone and everyone else who does not do the same

I don’t care what people eat. I can genuinely go months or years without thinking about vegans. I never challenged any vegan, vegetarian or whatever other diet out there.

I have been bothered by vegans on multiple occasions including at restaurants more than once.

By vegan food production you must mean processed fake meat? Not all vegans eat a horrible diet.

If you mean vegan food production as in normal non-meat foods such as vegetables than that’s a while opinion. Unless you are Jain or just want to die, we got to eat something.

Most food production in general kills a lot more than I would like especially vegetable and fruit production. Not much to do on the regard though.

I’m doing more good as an antinatalist than any vegan

Nah, there are definitely some vegetarian and vegan foods (especially when we’re talking ultraprocessed foods) that are worse for the environment and worse for your health than just plain meat or cheese.

we should be demanding sustainability in all our food consumption and respect for all living beings

Hear hear.

Plants are living beings, also. The fact is, unless you photosynthesise, you likely have to consume another living being to survive.

What nearly everyone can agree on is that industrial farming practices are harmful. Not just to the living things we farm, but also to the consumers, who end up consuming a lesser product that is often contaminated by industrial processes that cut corners to save on cost.

“Super foods” are kind of fucked, and that’s part of being a good vegan—researching and avoiding things that cause harm (as much as practicable). But those are more a thing in wellness clean eating fad diet circles. Most vegan staples are like rice, beans, pulses, and random veggies.

My only issue as a vegan is in the social sphere. I always feel like the weird one, or that if someone cooks a meal just for me, I’m taking a lot of space (not too sure how to say this in English). If appreciate the kindness but it makes me feel awkward.

But I like being silly!

My experience was the same, I expected a lot of friction dropping meat, but there was just nothing, which felt almost laughable. I do have friends however that have struggled to drop it, so it varies I guess.

Dairy and eggs was a bit harder, because it’s included in so many products and dishes I regularly ate. Takes a bit of time and energy, but when the switch is made, I would say its pretty smooth sailing

Good on you. I poisoned myself once because I used lemon juice instead of vinagre to lower the ph while making it.

Stick to the recipe, the ingredients and keep everything clean.

I think you might be shocked how easy it is to eat tasty vegan food, saying you dont enjoy"most vegan food" implies to me that you’ve only had a really limited selection of what’s available. Highly recommend trying ethiopian food.

I mean, depending on where you’re from, you can already get most meat products in a convincing non-lab alternative, at least from what I hear from colleagues. (I don’t have an opinion on this, because I don’t like meat. 🫠)

I very much doubt it would be unless you’re already artificially limiting what you’re eating

Thanks for your honestly but most food is vegan just with a piece of meat thrown in, or with cheese added on top. If you like those things, you can just sub out the animal part.

I know arguing over personal taste is a fool’s errand, but your tastes are malleable if you’re ever motivated to challenge yourself.